Uh oh you just made an argument against healing. 5 minutes ago you said free units and healing weren’t comparable. Checkmate.
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No I didn’t. You are just dishonestly attempting to change my words.
They aren’t. Healing mechanics are easy to balance.
Free combat unit mechanics fundamentally cannot be balanced, since the player using them isn’t taking any risks.
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Ok, so now we are on to lying. Blocked.
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I’ve explained my point numerous times, you just chose to ignore it.
In every one of my last three responses, I pointed out that healing specifically involves risk on the part of the player using it. A unit cannot be healed unless it was in a position to take damage; which means it was at a risk of being killed.
Summoners don’t have any such risk. They just summon units and back off. The summoned units are free, so the player using them isn’t risking any resources. Therein lies the problem, which does not exist for healing and other mechanics. You are trying to equate the two while specifically ignoring this fact.
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In brood war, the viper (it was called a “queen”) could instantly kill mechanical units with 1 click, and it would spawn a pair of free units. Since abduct is too strong, why don’t we go back to our broodwar roots and add this to the viper?
Surely being able to have a guaranteed kill and 2 free units isn’t less powerful than merely tugging a unit around.
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Spawn Broodlings and other guaranteed kills were kept in check by a very high energy cost, by limiting the possible targets, and by the significantly stronger spells and splash damage that were available to all factions. StarCraft II doesn’t have those checks in place to balance such an ability, or at least they aren’t sufficient to balance it against the 3/4/6 supply ground units that exist in this game.
Queens also didn’t have the ability to consume energy the way Vipers and Defilers do, which would make the ability a problem at any cost.
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but that’s not quite true either.
If the summoner has no energy or CD, they are defenseless.
nice to see at SH when they don’t build enough pressure on the opponent.
I would also take up the AAM argument again. Many Terran think AAM is bad because the opponent “only” has to run back and wait.
The same can be said about IT with 1.31 speed. just go back.
and yes does not feel nice when you always have to go back.
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That’s not really an issue.
Other units (including the free units themselves) or turrets can protect the summoner’s while they are on cooldown or out of energy, and the summoners themselves can take turns generating free units in waves.
The fact that the summoner’s don’t need to be anywhere near a fight after dropping their units means there is very low risk to using them. The only way to really prevent that would be to lock the caster in place while the summoned units are active (i.e. channeled ability), and to prevent the summoned units from moving or moving very far.
Zerg has Fungal and Abduct to prevent parts of the opposing army from retreating, and you can force fights near expansions or the main where they cannot afford to run away.
AAM isn’t “weak” just because the opponent can back-up or the Terran player has trouble following up. In most cases the spell itself also doesn’t add much damage.
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Your inability to be in position to punish summoners when they cast is not an issue with game design.
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Says the guy who has never been higher than gold league. Zerg don’t even use infestors in gold league, so you are basing this thought off… nothing?
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Just because you can’t see that infestors are powerful units doesn’t make them bad. Not to mention that they’re also seen quite frequently at high levels of play.
Pulling the league card only makes you look pathetic and highlights how little a response you actually have to Terranic’s arguments.
Yes, it 100% is when the casters can always cast from a safe position and never be in any actual danger themselves. Casters like the ghost, the raven, the oracle, the viper, the high templar all have to put themselves into dangerous positions to be used, and this means that they can effectively be countered or mitigated with good positioning and good micro. Even the Broodlord falls under this category
However, with the infested Terran and the Locust - and to some extent (though less so due to the casting range) the Auto-Turret, you aren’t able to do that. The caster (Infestors and Swarmhosts respectively) is always safe and you’re always forced to trade something for nothing. That is bad design and that is a problem.
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IT cast range is 9, splash can kill IT before any dmg, thanks for playing.
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Congratulations, you just proved my point.
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That sieged tanks are always safe?
What is the range of storm I wonder?
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I have smashed terranics arguments into the ground for 6 months. He is too stubborn and too stupid to know how wrong he is. He doesn’t even play this game, he just knows people like you will D ride him and defend him because you guys share the same race in a video game.
Pathetic.
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You keep believing that.
We call each other out all the time mate.
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Pulling the league card after getting called out is a funny way of smashing arguments. I mean we have Batz trying to argue that infestors are the worst caster in the game when Ravens exist. Infestors are far more common in TvZ than ravens are.
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Biggest difference between ravens is raven is not even needed.
Let’s view this fg is mainly used for light units but problem is energy slow it becomes dead weight.
Now you can argue that its same as rest spell caster but ghost has decent dps especially against light units.
High Templar has basic attack or morphed into archon once energy is gone.
Infestor had not morphed ability or basic attack. This was only unit of its time that had no basic attack. I guess is reason why they gave cheap spell of IT.
But over time that ideal slowly faded mainly from this wired concept how everyone hated free units.
To be honest I all ways felt this was dumbest complaint. If a better option was unkillable round like siege tank vs a killable round.
Back to this complaint that infestor lost it because blizzard listen to whiners and couldn’t come better balance option.
Probably best option is placed pop count of one and once’s max pop you can’t cast IT.
Or remove energy and cap IT one or two cast with a timer.
If not bring IT something needs be done lower energy cost or increase energy. Or lower cost infestor.
Or let spawn IT on death of infestor.
Right now, they only should be used if Zerg is massive a head so he can sucide infestor or be massive max pop while other is half.
If not then infestor has play small roll that it has very little impact.
Much I agree np and fg is strong spell but units it help destroy be back but infestor be no help.
What find annoying is counter play doesn’t really exist because Zerg so weak. That Terran and toss can keep doing same thing and have decent probability of coming on top.
Take look at banelings if anyone spread army just little bit more will bankrupt Zerg. Every mineral is loss Zerg is losing that in gas.
Siege Tanks and most other siege range units have to stand still and keep shooting in order to keep dealing damage.
Infestors could drop their Infested Terran all at once, and then back off.
The effective range of the spell (when used offensively and placing them where they don’t have to move forward to attack) is 14.
When covering a retreat, the Infested Terran can be placed nearly anywhere as long as they end up between the opposing army and the Zerg army.
AOE spells like Storm (9), AAM (10), and Fungal (10) all have a shorter effective range than the Infested Terran spell, and they can’t be spammed all at once to stack up potential damage,
It can be difficult to punish AOE spells, but not impossible. Disruptors, High Templar, Tempests, Brood Lords, Infestors (Fungal to slow units while others chase after them), Lurkers, Ghosts and Siege Tanks all potentially have the range to punish the casters using those spells.
Storm and Fungal also often have to be reapplied (after about 2.857 seconds) to kill targets.
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13 > 5
If you cannot kill it in hatch time before it reaches your units then your units were not in position or you had insufficient units.
Zerg ground takes ‘free’ damage every time they are forced to engage into tanks but this is not an issue with game design why? The only difference is IT is DOT while tank, disruptor, etc are burst. Effect is the same: free trades.
If I am not immediately on top of disruptors as they drop I have to run away, if you do not have splash in position for IT you have to run away.
The splash options need only outrange IT for it to be a positive energy trade, not a ‘free’ trade in favour of zerg. Or are you telling me disruptors have a higher recharge time than IT spam, or are you paying for each individual tank shot?
Terran and toss have multiple burst splash options from range or cloak, compared to zerg’s burst splash of one time use unit, unit that requires hive tech + numbers, and melee unit with many hard counters.
Mine, tank, disruptor constantly make free trades in the highest levels, yet we are to believe these races lack splash options to trade favourably with IT? lol
edit: Let me go even further, what is a bc fleet if not something that trades for free? TJ allows them to threaten literally any part of the map and scan gives them instant vision of any part of the map.
Limited by the energy of OC and the cooldowns of the BC, it performs free trades by scanning for where the enemy army is not, blinking in and spam yamatoing everything in sight before flying to missile turrets/dead air space. By your logic you have constant ‘free’ vision over the enemy army at all times so BC’s need only use their ‘free’ global teleport and ‘free’ burst ability to attack where the enemy is not. How can the enemy be in position to thwart BC’s when they can threaten literally every position on the map? TJ is adept shade on crack!
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