Would hardlocking 2-2-2 really be such a bad idea?

Bit of a long post, and I imagine this has been discussed before, but I wanted to share these thoughts since I started really thinking about it this morning, and I have not seen many talk about this as of late.

Seeing all of the posts and complaints as of late having people say sups are too strong because heal stacking is OP because it enables tank stacking. Then tank stacking is OP because you can’t kill them. Then you have complaints that there needs to be more DPS play in the meta or that tanks do too much damage. Yadda yadda yadda we’ve all read it and know the current complaints.

But on the other, quite even, hand, you have people who say tanks and supports need more competition(regarding pickrates). You have heroes who broadly accepted as not unfun for any side and take skill to play, but are viewed to need tuning because of the above. You have people who say that nerfing roles that feel fine and even great for the vast majority of the playerbase will just make them feel bad, and regarding tanks, that would be especially bad seeing as many don’t even want to play them as of now. Once again, this goes on, but we’ve all seen these complaints as well and know what they are.

A lot of metas that people have vastly disliked the most have came from the stacking of 3 or more of one role.

Wouldn’t the most obvious solution be to hardlock 2-2-2? It would help to solve all of the above problems without changing heroes that people majorly feel okay about and so much more. It would help with viewership in the OWL because all roles would get even amounts of play. It would help with the base game because a huge reason people lose games and get so frustrated is because of mass DPS stacking and having people who refuse to heal or tank, and then those who want to tank or heal have an awful time because of the former.

When you look back at the game and how the devs have balanced, 2-2-2 seems to be what the devs strive for and what players are most happy with, and when it isn’t that, you have mass complaints and frustration from the excluded. When you look at LFG, the vast majority of the LFG groups have 2-2-2 set on hardlock. Most games on ladder end up to being 2-2-2 gamed unless you play at the higher levels and strive for meta play, but even then, you still get a large amount of comps that just run 2-2-2.

Hell, a change similar to this has been done in the past when hero stacking was removed. This was done because the stacking of certain heroes became problematic, and nerfing those heroes who were problematic when stacked would have made them feel bad to play. That same issues persists now, except instead of identical heroes being stacked, you have identical roles being stacked.

Yes, hardlocking 2-2-2 would have problems. You’d have complaints that people are being forced into roles they don’t want to play, but that already happens now with the meta and when you have people who are trying their damndest to win their games, but it almost always ends in failure because you don’t have 2-2-2, or the meta isn’t 2-2-2 and people don’t want to play the stacked roles. Then you have complaints that the most casual playerbase would be sad that they can’t pick DPS when 2 are locked already, but is that not a problem for the majority now because stacking multiple DPS or of a single role in general leads to losses and because of the healing and tanking issues mentioned previously? This again also sounds like arguments against making heroes stacking banned from way back when, but the change to make single heros the standard has overall helped the game in the long term. I believe the same would be true for making 2-2-2 the hardlocked standard. This would probably be better implemented with a roleQ, but I think 2-2-2 on hardlock would be overall better until it could be added, and LFG does exist for those that really want to play a certain role. One might say why not just use LFG now to hardlock 2-2-2(I do, exclusively) but this does not effect the higher end of the spectrum and even the majority of players, which is what Blizz balances around.

So, why isn’t hardlocking 2-2-2 the best solution in the long term for the game as a whole, seeing as it overall helps gameplay, balance, meta, player happiness, etc.

EDIT:

I was talking to someone in Discord about this subject and they thought that hardlocked 2-2-2 meant that once you selected a hero, you can’t swap to anything else anymore after that. That is not what hardlocked 2-2-2 means.

Hardlocked 2-2-2 just means that there can only be 2 tanks, 2 dps, 2 sups. No more, no less. If you, for example, are a tank, and want to play support, then you would ask a support player to swap with you. You would both, in spawn, press h(or whatever your hero swap button is), the roles tank and sup would unlock for both players, allowing them to switch places, and then you’d be set. This mans flexers and people who decided they are performing bad in their role would still be able to swap.

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I still think a soft queue is the best solution. With all the data the game collects, the game could more than likely have an algorythm that predicts which hero you’re likely to pick based on your recent trends. Then the match maker could take that info and try to match you based on that.

So for example if I’d spent the last few games playing mainly tanks, the match maker could soft queue me for “tank”. and try to find one tank, two DPS, two healers. The matchmaker could abandon it if it took too long and not lock anyone to a role.

It creates a team that is likely to play 2/2/2 but not strictly stick to it

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See, the issue with that is it does not solve any of the issues people have with the game now, because allllll of the problematic stuff is still there. So nothing gets “balanced” or “fixed” with something like that.

It would be a nice QoL type of thing for players because it could possibly help the average player in their soloQ games, but it does not solve any of the problems. It wouldn’t effect them at all where it really mattered, just about.

People hate playing against tripple Support /Tripple Tank… people hate playing WITH tripple DPS so I’d say It’d definatly not make the game worse… if that’s even possible.

Personally though I’d be up for a 2/2/2 Role Queue that isn’t locked but picking a role you weren’t queued for without the Okay from at least the majority of your team is a valid reportable offense.

People hate playing against tripple Support /Tripple Tank… people hate playing WITH tripple DPS

Exactly

Personally though I’d be up for a 2/2/2 Role Queue that isn’t locked

Again, if it isn’t locked, then it won’t solve anything. People will still play what they want, which means you’ll still get weird comps with 3+ of one role, and the meta issues with role stacking won’t be addressed.

Imagine if hero stacking was never removed, and instead, was just a suggestion. Do you think people would, majority of the time, not stack heroes? Do you think it would have affected the metas that would have came out of that, or that it would have changed the meta at the time?

Probably.

If it’s a queue locked format (eg I pick X/role and am put into a setup needing X/role) queue times would be disproportional across the three classes with more DPS and thus longer queue times for DPS players. I remember seeing people bring up a different game that suffers this exact problem, I think it was like a Final Fantasy or something. Definitely an online version of a J-RPG if memory serves.

If it’s a “Max of two” locked system (eg I load into a game with two of the same class, no other heroes in that class can be selected) and the class I wanted is already full it encourages me to either leave the match (forcing more backfill) or play a role suboptimally to emulate what I wanted. DPS only Support/Tank numbers are something I could see skyrocketing in that format.

Probably why we got LFG, you can format a team following 2-2-2 but people not interested in doing that are allowed to do as they please as well.

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Let me answer your question with another question. Is using LFG really that painful?

It seems to me people want to make drastic changes to the game no matter what other people want, potentially throwing away the proverbial baby with the bath water. All of this in spite of the fact that Blizzard custom built a tool specifically for this type of situation. If you want 2-2-2, make a group for it. If you want to get tossed into a group of completely random people, accept that they might not want to play the way you do.

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Pros

  • Everybody gets to play what they want
  • No more need to make sacrifices to the Jeffs in order to get a team where everyone knows how to play what they choose
  • 2-2-2 meaning all classes get play.
  • No more 3-3 that most people hate

Bonus to y’all that hate Briggite

  • Briggite pick rate gets significantly reduced because (at least in high ranks) you need a primary healer and Lucio/Zen
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Yes. Flex players will officially be kicked out of the game, and meta will be as stale as that bread they found in King Tutankhamun’s tomb.

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I’m a flex players. If I want to play something else I’ll select that other role. But everyone has 1 role they’re best at and they should be playing their best role anyway.

a forced 2-2-2 isnt a bad idea because realistically in solo queue its much harder to pull off crazy comps and plays due to communication, this means that there would now be a solo queue and a team queue, as it should have been since launch

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If it’s a queue locked format (eg I pick X/role and am put into a setup needing X/role) queue times would be disproportional across the three classes with more DPS and thus longer queue times for DPS players. I remember seeing people bring up a different game that suffers this exact problem, I think it was like a Final Fantasy or something. Definitely an online version of a J-RPG if memory serves.

I do agree, if there were to be a roleQ of sorts, then the Q times for DPS would indeed be larger. It would also vary by rank, I am sure. But I don’t think that is really a bad thing, imo. I feel like they could probably implement it in a way that it would sort of be a suggestion type of thing, perhaps? I’m not sure how to explain it, but basically if you wanted to hop on OW and play, you would not have to enter what role you are looking to play every time. Although, perhaps for the competitive mode, that would be wise.

If it’s a “Max of two” locked system (eg I load into a game with two of the same class, no other heroes in that class can be selected) and the class I wanted is already full it encourages me to either leave the match (forcing more backfill) or play a role suboptimally to emulate what I wanted.

It would indeed be a max of two system. I do again, see what you mean here, that there would probably be more leavers in modes like soloQ QP, but for comp I think it would be less so, because leaving is going to lose you SR and eventually get you banned from the mode. As far as the suboptimal play goes, that already happens now, constantly. The downside there is that if those people don’t swap to fit their team comps, which majority of the time are 2-2-2, then they cause their team a loss by default because they are refusing to fit with what their team needs, or are being toxic to someone else wanting them to fit instead. So by forcing the 2-2-2, it would generate a more positive outcome in the long term, just like how forcing one hero per team was positive in the long term, you know?

Probably why we got LFG, you can format a team following 2-2-2 but people not interested in doing that are allowed to do as they please as well.

I agree, I think that is one of the big reasons too, and I know that’s a main reason why many use LFG for lower level comp and QP, it’s just that it isn’t viable for the higher levels in comp(master+), and it does not solve the “meta” issues with role stacking, like 3-3.

And if you pick support, and the enemy has a pharah mercy and you play a good widow and your dps play genju and junkrat, you are just screwed, even though you could have won easily without hardlock.

Another option might be requiring a minimum of one damage, one tank, and one support. It kills goats. You can still have triple tank, but supports would be capped at two, giving it a vulnerability.

A ban/pick system would cure all these problems without forcing a stale 2/2/2 every game.

I have exclusively used LFG for QP ever since it has came out, and I hardlock 2-2-2 every single time. I think I have Q’d for normal QP once since it came out, and 4 DPS were slamlocked, so I left that game and went back to LFG. I did mention using LFG myself in the post.

And again like I mentioned in another reply, LFG does not solve the meta aspects of the issue, and it does not help higher ranks, where LFG is not a viable option.

Considering the fixes role queue would bring to the many current problems, that is not a good enough of an excuse to not implement it.

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2/2/2 is balanced but boring i prefer

1 Shield tank, 1 off tank, 1 flanker dps, 1 main dps, 1 main support and 1 off support. Example:

Orisa, Dva, Tracer, Ashe, Moira and Zeny

This can prevent as well 3/3 metas or boring 2/2/2 metas

2-2-2 can still suck if you have a dva zarya mei sym zen brig. Or other aweful comps

Hardlock 2-2-2 does not mean you are locked into the role you selected, it just means that the comp has to have 2 tank, 2 DPS, and 2 Support. No more, no less. IF you wanted to do what you said here, you’d just have to ask your fellow DPS if you could trade roles with them so you could hitscan the Pharah away.

You could say, “what happens when they refuse to swap?” and I would say what if they do that now? You’re still going to lose that game because your team is now down a support, and a solo healer a lot of the time, isn’t going to work, unless the other members of the team are doing more than they need to in order to win that game.

Having the hardlocked 2-2-2 is overall a better solution for the game to have and will benefit it more in the long term. That’s the idea. There is no catch all to the problems this game will have with people refusing to swap. But again, what 2-2-2 hardlock does do is solve a lot of the problems people are having with the game right now, and have been having for a long time.