Widow's 10 second grapple hook is actually ~12 seconds in practice

[Mulqueen-11677]

lol the change is very welcome, Widow even having 10 seconds of escape was ridiculous, she is supposed to be a DIVEABLE hero, no Dive hero should have to use their mobility to get to Widow only to expect getting Widow grapple away and double headshotting them, the skill to double headshot Winston isn’t even that big cause his head hitbox is so stupidly big.

[brokenstyli-1993]

If there is even one positive aspect to an ability, you have to include that in your estimates to give a fair assessment

I have factored that in. I mentioned it as much in my original post, and determined (rather generously) that they balance each other out that the raw number is the actual average.

[Xeiom-2558]

26 meters.

I was interested in if you can get further than this so I loaded up the Practise range, you can crack about 30-32 meters if the jump goes cleanly and you start a little more to the left.

[brokenstyli-1993]

Saying that the nerf isn’t from 8 to 10 seconds but from 10 to 12 seconds doesn’t really have a justification to not have the nerf go through, if she needs to have reduced mobility then the cooldown must go up whether you count it from 8 or 10.

The entirety of the forum, and it’s arguments surrounding Widow are based on the supposition that Widow’s hook is 8 seconds. Not ~10.

With the knowledge that it’s ~10 seconds currently, this vastly changes all arguments. Any argument that D.Va and Winston cannot actually pounce on Widow now has a little less weight to it, because while Widow’s ~10 second cooldown has gone up, the 5 and 6 second cooldowns that are well known on D.Va and Winston have stayed the same.

The arguments that Widow can just zip away on because it’s off cooldown during Monkey’s second jump, that argument loses a lot of water.

[SensualSpud-1202]

You aren’t recognizing that the play in GM and pro level Overwatch has a different level of coordination that simply doesn’t exist in the lower levels.

But Fragehardt is literally saying just that by saying his GM games are vastly different than your Platinum/Diamond games.

A Grapple Hook on a cooldown of 10 seconds may feel weak on Widowmaker in a Platinum game, (and even people in lower levels complain her ult is weak, which high-skilled players HIGHLY disagree with), but it still feels useful and strong on a GM player.

You have to be careful with buffing already high-skilled heroes like Widowmaker, because higher-skilled players can destroy with them and honestly dictate a game. In higher-levels it was getting more difficult to dive her effectively. You have a Winston jump to her perch, then she drops down, he follows, then she grapples back up. Winston now has to wait for Leap to come back. By the time he does, Widow’s grapple is back up in like 3 seconds after he jumps, and by then she’s created distance. So yeah.

[MrTickles-1464]

You haven’t though. You state about the jump but leave numeric value of the reels duration intact. Basically stating the entire thing as a loss when it is not.

[brokenstyli-1993]

I was interested in if you can get further than this so I loaded up the Practise range, you can crack about 30-32 meters if the jump goes cleanly and you start a little more to the left.

Within margin of error. I honestly don’t even know if the gravity matches real-world constants.

26 meters was just the number I got from a quick scratch on a notepad.

[brokenstyli-1993]

You state about the jump but leave numeric value of the reels duration intact. Basically stating the entire thing as a loss when it is not.

When you factor in the times you have to course-correct to get to where you want?

You do realize that some course-corrections don’t even work, right? For example the Ilios floodlight, if you cast hook on that side, will override almost every attempt you go towards the above Greco-Roman building on Ilios Ruins, and that you’re forced to wait a delta of the entire full cooldown, right?

[SensualSpud-1202]

But that pretty much goes back to the issues she has with bugs on Grapple, not the core design itself.

[Twilition-1416]

one-shot logs

smallest projectile in the game isn’t a log <.<

[SensualSpud-1202]

Yeah, it’s Junkrat’s grenades now, lol.

(this is a joke, please don’t hurt me)

[MrTickles-1464]

But that pretty much goes back to the issues she has with bugs on Grapple, not the core design itself.

This pretty much says it right here. I agree certain map geometry’s and how they interact with hook need to be fixed. However, just because specific scenario’s can encounter issues does not negate the positive general aspects of the reel mechanic itself.

[brokenstyli-1993]

In higher-levels it was getting more difficult to dive her effectively. You have a Winston jump to her perch, then she drops down, he follows, then she grapples back up. Winston now has to wait for Leap to come back. By the time he does, Widow’s grapple is back up in like 3 seconds after he jumps, and by then she’s created distance. So yeah.

But that simply isn’t true, as I pointed out above;

With the knowledge that it’s ~10 seconds currently, this vastly changes all arguments. Any argument that D.Va and Winston cannot actually pounce on Widow now has a little less weight to it, because while Widow’s ~10 second cooldown has gone up, the 5 and 6 second cooldowns that are well known on D.Va and Winston have stayed the same.

The arguments that Widow can just zip away on because it’s off cooldown during Monkey’s second jump, that argument loses a lot of water.

As a Monkey main for over 5 seasons, I know for a fact that it’s not true. If a player tries to activate a leap from the maximum possible distance his leap allows then maybe it’s true, but if you do that then you’re diving incorrectly in general.

But that pretty much goes back to the issues she has with bugs on Grapple, not the core design itself.

Which is my point exactly… I would be perfectly okay with a 10 (~12) second cooldown on the sole condition that it’s actually bugfixed.

It has no indication of being bugfixed. It hasn’t had any indication for 2 years since launch, or for the 8 (soon to be 9) months that the Reddit buglist has been public.

That 4 second cooldown buff (from ~14 to ~10) is supposed to be compensation for the hook inconsistencies, and removing it without addressing the bugs is a slap in the face.

[SensualSpud-1202]

Which is my point exactly… I would be perfectly okay with a 10 (~12) second cooldown on the sole condition that it’s actually bugfixed.

It has no indication of being bugfixed.

Welcome to the life of a Reinhardt-main, lol.

[Twilition-1416]

Papa G stated that hanzo’s arrows are tied as the smallest projectiles in the game.

[brokenstyli-1993]

Welcome to the life of a Reinhardt-main, lol.

Reinhardt got confirmation in an interview of a ground-up rewrite.

Widow hasn’t received a peep, ever, in the history of post-launch dev talks.

[Fragehardt-1291]

No, it isn’t. Grappling the floor is often a polar-spherical turn away (literally the opposite pole) from the diving tank. The time it takes to turn around and then cast the ability (because you can’t cast and turn at the same time, or else it procs to the position when you cast), is often longer than a successful non-buggy grapple hook.

Furthermore, by grappling the floor you’re still within line of fire for many heroes, particularly the flanker ones that are less common nowadays.

Oh, so grappling in the direction of your attacker so that you have to zip directly past the Winston (and thus take damage from him more due to being in his range longer) is better? And why in your example is the Widow always facing 180 degrees in the wrong direction? And if you are facing 180 degrees from the way you need to go, would you not also have to turn 180 degrees to grapple on to a wall?

Furthermore, by grappling the floor you’re still within line of fire for many heroes, particularly the flanker ones that are less common nowadays.

Actually, no you’re not. Youre closer to the ground and the travel time is much shorter since the overall travel distance is shorter geometrically. Think about traveling in a straight line versus traveling up into the air 20 meters, then falling 20 meters, only to travel 26 meters horizontally. That takes much longer because you’re moving more distance, even if most of that distance is vertical. Furthermore, in the air you are generally more visible to more enemies. There is typically no cover in the air (just ask Pharah players) and nothing to disrupt LoS for the enemy. This makes you a more vulnerable target while also exposing you to the enemy for longer.

Rank shaming for no reason.

I’m not even rank shaming. I’m simply pointing out the flaw in the logic. If you decide to subjectively interpret it as an insult, that’s on you. You assigned it that connotation, not me.

That’s not what I’m saying. What I’m saying is that being in GM where Widow’s (and her teammates) are playing differently, accounts for the strength.

1% of the game cannot dictate all use cases and scenarios and set the tempo for balance.

You don’t take a symphonic conductor to an elementary/middle/high school/post-school band, each, and expect them all to have the same exact performance and match the same bpm as the actual symphony he professionally conducts.

You also don’t humiliate the grade schoolers for being suboptimal.

There’s a difference between being good and being fair. By you being good, you’re completely throwing away any and all fair and equivocal comparisons. You’re clinging so heavily to your title as a GM that you’re being elitist.

And what you’re failing to realize is that by your games being inherently different, they are also easier on the widow while simultaneously being harder. You’re focusing only on how it is harder. For example, you say that the Widow doesn’t get supported as much, and the communication is not as good to help save the Widow’s life by giving her somewhere/someone to retreat to when being dived on. That may be true.

However, you’re completely disregarding all of the ways the game is easier for the Widow at lower ranks. In GM, teams literally coordinate dives on to the Widow and try to pressure her as much as they can, even if they can’t kill her. Just pressuring her is enough to alter her playstle and force her to take awkward angles and sightlines that are not ideal. They are constantly pressured. In lower tiers, as you yourself have pointed out, that coordination and teamwork is not present. Thus, the Widow is not as pressured and can sit on her perch with advantageous sightlines for longer periods of time. In fact, with that in mind, the grappling hook nerf will actually matter less for people in lower tiers, as you will need it less often anyway.

As for you calling me elitist and such, I think a lot of people on these forums would disagree with you, Sir. In fact, I never rank shamed you once. You assumed I did. I don’t even know what your rank is, I didn’t bother to look.

Oh and also… If people peek too much in your games, that benefits the Widowmaker, btw.

[MrTickles-1464]

and removing it without addressing the bugs is a slap in the face.

But they aren’t removing the “compensation”. At least not in its entirety. The compensation is just being adjusted upwards of what was originally given. Which speaks to the likelyhood that reducing it as much as they had was OVER compensation and they are correcting that mistake.

[Krows-1256]

Argue all you want about Sombra, Rein, and Doomfist having buggy abilities, but Widow’s grappling hook is, factually and numerically, the buggiest ability in the game;

Thanks, I needed that laugh!

[brokenstyli-1993]

Thanks, I needed that laugh!

Read on. I fully explained that reasoning.