Preface: Tank main that has played a ton of Kiriko in OW2
It is an issue of Proactive vs Reactive
Ana Example: Rein comes in and Slams half your team. Ana can nade her team but that wont do much, she can sleep Rein or someone else but the rest of his team is still there.
Kiriko Example: Rein slams half your team and you toss Suzu and they all stand up like nothing happened.
“But ana could sleep rein and that would counter Rein slam” Exactly my point. Ana could prepare for the Rein slam and sleep him before it ever goes off. That takes a lot of skill. There is no skill in toss a Suzu at the knocked down teammates
Risk vs Reward
Nade and Sleep is the ONLY defenses Ana has. If she wants to get away from a dive or heal herself she must have Nade and/or Sleep ready for herself. Kiriko can just quickstep away or wall climb to safety and then she can still use Suzu to save herself.
“oh its just a skill issue”
Sorry I have a lot of time played in OW and far more time on Ana than Kiriko but I almost never flub a Suzu. Sleep and Nade are still an issue for me when I need to.
I have blocked DVa bombs, Highnoons, Rein shatters (often before they even land), Sigma ult, Hog hooks, Reaper ult, Orisa Ult and on and on. Its not hard to do. The rate I save myself and others from ults makes me think its actually really easy because I don’t save people at those rates on any other support. Even Bap lamp is FAR harder to pull off.
And yes SUZU is what is making people mad about Kiriko. Its not her ult, its not her healing, its not her getting away… its her ability to completely shut down big plays by pressing E. BIG shatter/sleep/hook/nade/bomb/ult/whatever and she is just lul cleanse.
It happens after a big thing happen, and people feel like they lost something. It is a psychological thing. So people feel like they were cheated out of they rightfully earned play.
For example. If rein uses shatter and get sleep mid animation it feels bad. But also it feels like you got outplayed, and people understand this. But the suzu usually happens after big slam landed on 3 or 4. Then comes the magic jar and you got denied.
In first you got denied doing thing whatsoever. You never had that big slam.
In second you got it, and someone took it away.
I am not saying that suzu is bad, or we should not have cleanse. Damn… I wanted cleanse in this game for 6 years now. But the human nature, and how we view certain things cannot be changed.
Ana’s nade is just as divisive in high level as Suzu is. So I don’t know where you’re coming from. Both need to be adjusted. I don’t think sleep is problematic and I don’t hear about it being complained about much.
I don’t mind Suzu that much, it could use a higher cooldown considering how powerful it is in conjunction with the character it’s on. Nerfing other aspects of her kit too much would just make her feel like dog****.
I agree, Suzu can’t be interrupted like nade, and there is no risk of using it. And in the same time Suzu does too much. And in the same time 5v5 makes every support miserable to play so I don’t know how this can be solved without dumpstering the character. I’d be happier if there were changes to at least JQ’s kit so she won’t be completely negated by Suzu in every possible way.
Maybe Rein shouldn’t have the option of almost certainly killing everyone infront of him for the grand skill expression of pressing q whilst looking in their general direction.
Perhaps changing that dynamic is exactly the sort of thing the support role should be doing, now that most tanks don’t have shields.
Basically every other hero with offensive ults is required to be mildly aware of enemy cooldowns to use their ults.
You keep saying this like it’s some sort of gotcha, and I gotta say it’s really reallyreally annoying.
You can never have objective balance in a game like Overwatch because lots of different people with lots of different opinions play this game. What feels balanced to one person may not feel balanced to another.
A hero may be statistically balanced but they may still feel unfair to play against on the receiving end. Mercy may be statistically balanced, but Rez and blue beam still create a lot of negative feelings because of how it undoes a pick or breaks damage thresholds.
A hero may also be stastically underpowered but still feel unfair to play against. Cassidy for example, is probably on the lower end of the spectrum in terms of power, but his Magnetic Grenade still feels uninteractive because the Cassidy gets a free 140 damage ability with zero aim required.
And at the end of the day, the devs should be focusing on making most players happy. If they have to make a small number of players unhappy to achieve that, then that’s a necessary sacrifice.
Honestly i feel like the only ult that truly gets gimped by suzu is junkerqueens rampage. I’m not defending suzu or anything. I think its annoying as all heck. I just dont think its overpowered.
it is not a ‘gotcha’… It is honest question. I want to know the truth, and the path to discover it is through evidence.
After all truth is what the facts are. What can be shown to be true.
So if me, trying to hold as many true positions as possible, while holding as few false positions as possible is annoying for you then I am not sorry. But I just want to know the truth, and only reasonable path there is through evidence.
What?
You know that you just wrote that you cannot have objective ballance, because people that play the game have subjective opinions right?
That is non sequitur…
So? That only means that people that play against it are biased… Balance IS objective.
So? Does not mean it is reason to nerf it. Because other wise Mercy will be too weak if she is balanced as is.
and you would need to present evidence as to why he is too strong/to weak before asking for nerfs, if you want to be reasonable.
They should be focused on making balanced game. And balance is objective, not subjective.
Shatter, tire, self destruct… The list is not that short.
It is really gimmicky. I was really confused with some kills I got as kiri because of this… But hey. It is what it is…
Nade and Sleep is the ONLY defenses Ana has. If she wants to get away from a dive or heal herself she must have Nade and/or Sleep ready for herself.
I’ve never understood this arugment. Both your phrasing (she “only” has two defensive abilities when most supports don’t even have that) and the fact that not having these abilities spells certain doom.
If Zenyatta can exist (the practically immobile big round hitbox), then choosing to hold onto these overtuned offensive abilities as the only means to protect herself just seems like bad play on the Ana’s part. By playing in a way that means you aren’t able to take advantage of them means you’re only really using half her kit, if that.
Used offensively, these abilities are ridiculously powerful gamechangers. Far more powerful than they deserve to be. Ana can walk to spawn and back in the time it takes someone to wake up from sleep, there’s no reason for it to be so long if it’s just to get away from flankers. Used defensively, they just keep a healbot alive and deprive her team of controlling the fight.
It’s annoying when you act like your positions are objectively true.
That also means the people who play the heroes are biased too. Bias goes both ways.
Balance is when the game is fun for the majority of players. It’s entirely subjective. If the general opinion on Sojourn was that she is fun to play against even when she is statistically overperforming, then the position would be that she’s balanced.
Truth is what the facts are. What can we show to be true.
so swing and a miss… But go ahead pretend to read my mind more.
They are… Ask me about any of my positions that I hold (doubt you know any but lets try this little exercise), and I will provide you with evidence, or point you to people that know said evidence better than me (in case you go with some science field I am not that familiar with).
And evidence does not care about bias… So my point stands.
I respectfully disagree… Balance is when a different elements are equal or in the correct proportions. So there is no room for subjectivity.
There is though. People may believe something to be true even when it’s not.
You’d just provide “evidence” from your own biased sources.
Evidence can still be prone to bias, people often look for evidence that suits their own opinions. Proof is immune to bias. There is a difference.
And respectfully there is room for subjectivity. Many players would agree that dive was a very balanced meta but if you asked a Zen main they’d probably disagree despite their hero being a very strong pick in that comp.
Well if the majority of players thought otherwise and nerfing her risks alienating that majority, is it better to leave her in that state if people enjoy playing and playing against her?
Believing that something is true, does not make it true.
truth is what the facts are. What you can show to be true.
no.
I would provide actual evidence. That means I would provide body of facts that are positively indicative of, and/or exclusively concordant with one available hypothesis or position over any other.
And now I ask for you to stop to try and read my mind… You do not know what I think…
NO…
Evidence is a body of facts that are positively indicative of, and/or exclusively concordant with one available hypothesis or position over any other. No room for bias.
And if they find actual objective evidence to support their claim then they have it. The fact that they look for it, does not mean they will find it tho.
wha?..
there is no such thing as ‘proof’ outside of mathematics…
Are started talknig some mathematics hypothesis, and I was not notified?
In balance? nope.
Either it is balanced or not. There is not room for personal opinions.
And that would be argumentum ad populum… You would need evidence to say it was balanced, or unbalanced… Either way you would need evidence.
But the null hypothesis would be that it is ok, unless some one can show it is not balanced.
And I would ask for his evidence.
Argumentum ad populum… The fact that bunch of people say something does not make it true.
