Why Juno Shouldn't Be Changed

General Discussion
1

Juno has just released and after playing her for over 9 hours I have my thoughts on her kit.

For starters I have seen alot of people saying she is weak. Saying she needs headshots or more movement. These takes are HOT and should not be accounted for. She is not weak right now, but she is certainly not op. She has her place as not a support who is made for massive dmg (which maybe no support should be), yet she can still dish out insane healing output if you can stay alive with her.

The more you buff her, the more this game will head into the direction of a deathmatch and tf2 where it is just kill. The strategy needs to stay in this game and she already has more movement options than 80% of the roster. Her blaster could be seen as a little on the weak side, but she is a support, and not all supports should have Baptiste level dmg. There is a reason they opted to nerf Illariā€™s poke dmg and give her more healing, because she is A HEALER. Not to say that Juno shouldnā€™t be able to hold her own in a fight, but she should not be able to 1v1 a dps hero confidently. Surely with some out manuvering and better aim she should be able to take it, but with 2 bots of the same skill, a genji should kill her.

That is why this is a team gameā€¦ not a 1v1 death match.

If blizzard wants to make any changes, say make her ult like Bastion where you can redirect it then by all means go for it. But as a hero, her abilities are extremely versatile, she has lots of escape options, her auto lock ability is very fun, AND SHOULD NOT DO TOO MUCH DAMAGE. It does healing over time as well which is fantastic and gives a different reason to use that over her primary fire.

TLDR:
All in all Juno is in a great spot. If you think she should be buffed you need to stop 1v1ing and start healing. If you think she should be nerfed, you should play more Baptiste for a dps support and work on ur aim as a dps. Outmaneuver other heroes, use her strengths to your advantage, and be the space girlie you were meant to be.

Thank you!

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2

I think she should be buffed

Her flight is clunky and I wish she rewarded good aim with crit.

Lower her base DMG and give her crit DMG.

2 Likes
3

I understand the flight might feel clunky without up and down, but using it with its speed buff, and being able to double jump after activating it creates fun opportunities to use it effectively. Also if she was rewarded for good aim she would just be another Kiriko or Bap. I think this helps her embrace a different feel from other heroes.

4

We just need more time, because these previews always end up the same.

A hero is over/underestimated then community wakes up a couple of weeks down the line.

3 Likes
5

Even though I made the post expressing my thoughts on why NOT to change her, I agree with ur sentiment. I hope blizzard can keep it cool for a little before jumping the gun with any adjustments.

6

I donā€™t think sheā€™s weak I just think she needs a few small changes.

I donā€™t see why she canā€™t have at least a slower vertical movement instead of none at all

1 Like
7

A slower vertical movement is not a bad change. If she feels clunky to you right now though, slowing her down probably wont fix that. The direction Blizzard is taking the game right now is to have it movement based and more brawly deathmatchy (which i dont like). But if they are gonna go that route, I might as well hope they go 100%, and giving her that maneuverability and fast movement speed, especially with flight, adds another hero for dps to up their aim skill with.

8

GM support here. She feels reasonably balanced. I was worried she was going to be a disaster after reading that skillset but unless they mess with her, she is the best designed support since OW1 for sure. I think lower SR players are going to struggle to get value out of her because her biggest boons are her mobility (which requires really good positioning and relocating, which lower SR players are poor at), and her speed boost (which requires team coordination which, as we see with Lucio, lower SR (even higher SR!) teams are poor at). On top of that, her healing applies, generally, with some degree of aimed shot -and she has bad value at quite long range, which is where lower SR supports like to sit. Safe and far away and around corners.

Sheā€™s a skill expressive, high skill ceiling hero who slots into a lot of team comps but perhaps is not the crux of any. But I think her lack of ā€˜get out of jail freeā€™ cards, and her lack of extreme dueling ability, is leaving people to think she is way too weak. Sheā€™s not. Lucio is considered a great duelist and itā€™s not because of his overwhelming damageā€¦itā€™s because of his mobility, with speed boost, lets you either get the drop on an enemy, or finish off low health targets. She does this as well. She, like Lucio, is making a dumb play if she walks off to go duel a Cas who sees her coming; she is gonna lose that. She deserves to. And unlike, say, Kiriko or Moira, she canā€™t just ā€˜leaveā€™. Her mistakes get punished.

We canā€™t use these ā€˜teleportā€™ heros like Kiriko, Moira or even Mercy as our basis for support survival. Itā€™s fine to have some, but we need more variety than that. And having the ā€˜no teleportā€™ heros get value in a different way than dueling means you can reward a whole different skillset of gameplay. Sheā€™s a team coordinated support hero who can pair well with lower healing, but benefits most from mobile, fast paced comps. Rush, dive, even brawl if you have the right team comp. Otherwise her healing and damage are going to feel too low, sheā€™s going to feel too vulnerable, and people donā€™t understand how to use speed boost properly so that will feel obsolete.

Iā€™m hoping they donā€™t dumb down this hero for the support playerbase again. Iā€™m in that playerbase, and we deserve complex heros as well. Out of the OW2 supports, Kiri, LW, Illariā€¦none of them have this level of complexity or versatility. Sheā€™s strong when played well and intelligently in a suitable comp.

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9

I agree with the rest, but I am one of those people that thinks Weaver actually has a ton of complexity and is well designed.

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10

THISS!!!

She can be used in incredible ways and has a great support feel to her. Tbh I feel her movement can be used someone was a ā€œget outa jail cardā€ which is very good. Its not a tp, which is instant, meaning she can still be caught out of position and punished, but with good enough skill, you can use that glide, double jump, speedring combo to really get outa there. Like u said being similar to lucio. They arent zen with no movement, but they arent kiri and moira with invulnerability. They are just right!!!

11

Sheā€™s actually really good at the reddit Lucio style gameplay.

I find myself saving Ring for myself and going to terrorize the back line and getting good value from it.

I still wish she had lower base DMG and crit DMG but even if they donā€™t change that sheā€™s still viable if you enjoy the toxic flanking DPS support playstyle.

1 Like
12

I would argue the characters people say are the worst, are usually some of the best heroes to use when mastered. And weaver can have very strong complexity which can win team battles. Ik when I have a weaver thats really good on my team, it is impossible not to notice all of the tools they use that win us the fight.

13

I donā€™t think LW is not a complexly designed hero, my issue is he is not well designed in that he will simply never be a strong and fair and suitable pick for a large playerbase. Heā€™s too difficult to balance and keep his core identity. So I guess that definition changes depending on your impression of those things. I think he contributes well to the support role, but I think if his kit remained the same and he started getting more solid PR/WR, it would be because he is poorly balanced, because he is quite niche. So I guess my point is that because he is difficult for the team to balance for the whole, heā€™s not the best designed on their end. I think itā€™s good to have interesting and niche heros in every role, though, as long as T4 is okay with letting them exist as niche options.

1 Like
14

I think she has that double playstyle that alot of ow characters have. Genji for example, obv can be played as a backline diver and assasin, but he doesnt lack the ability to play with his team, poke from afar, and build that blade to punish enemies in team fights.

While I dont play Juno in a flanky way, there have been times I def was able to win fights based off of her movement abilities to get in, finish a hero, and get out. Which gives her that same perfect design that she can be played however the player wants. That being said, she shouldnt be an assasin flanking and getting kills IMO. She is still a support, if she could do that, why ever pick genji or sombra. Leave that to the echos.

15

Try her out with an aggro Lucio. We were running Lucio/Juno aggressively for hours last night and it was outrageously fun. That support duo pairs really well with a lot of stuff, especially Rein/JQ/Winston/Dva/Ramā€¦If you are working with your team and coordinating, it feels like a different game.

But like, and we donā€™t see this discussion about Lucio oftenā€¦Lucio is actually trash in ladder play. I donā€™t deny heā€™s a strong hero, and of course he is strong professionally, but because he is very moderate in all things except speed boost, he is really hard to get value out of in ladder play. His PR and WR are horrible (I mean, historically theyā€™re not very good to be honest!). But if you get a team that listens to coordinated Lucio playā€¦they feel insane. She is in that same exact boat, but she does it without taking Lucioā€™s role (I think she slots into more teamcomps without as much effort as Lucio personally), so they pair well together. Thatā€™s really impressive, to me!

But I can see her suffering from the same issue as Lucioā€¦theyā€™re good, but they require teamwork to get really good value out of, and thatā€™s really hard in ladder play, even for the best players. So their numbers donā€™t reflect well. And, to be fair, T4 does not change Lucio in the face of this. Lucio catches a lot of nerfs over and over because he is so strong in a coordinated team, but he is really bad ladderā€¦I hope they recognize they designed another banger like that in Juno and donā€™t buff/tweak that out of her. Because I think them paired together might make up for some of the weaknesses of just one of them in ladder play.

But lower SR games where you need more more more healing and utility -even speed boost- is just secondaryā€¦I think she is going to be rough.

1 Like
16

She needs head-shots in my books, not because her damage actually needs buffed, but because of how unimpactful her gun-play feels and the lack of big moments elsewhere in her kit.

3 Likes
17

Iā€™d trade her secondary fire for headshots lmao

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18

I do understand that her gunplay FEELS lack lustering, like ur firing pea bullets. But I O it powers her already high skill cieling a bit, and adds a difference between her and other dps support.

19

Maybe allow her to place it like a Reaper TP or Lifeweaver tree. Since Iā€™m fairly certain it already moves in the direction sheā€™s facing, I think this should be sufficient enough to include a little skill for her positioning.

Also a slight verticality buff for her jumps, so that she can reach most ledges without being impeded. As it is currently, thereā€™s only a few spots she can actually reach.

20

I donā€™t actually ask for dinks because I think that Juno is especially weak. I ask because it feels downright weird to use an SMG and not have any sort of dinks at all. Iā€™m willing to meet the Lords of Balance half-way and not have full-on double damage for headshots because at the moment, the gun feels strange to me. Not ineffective, but strange.

1 Like