Exactly. It’s almost comical how people cant see how none of it stands up to scrutiny.
A hero cant be both easy and trash tier. Pick one, you cant have both. The opposite is also true.
7 Likes
Sym vs flankers continue to be the best example of this.
Sym was always a more complex, mentally demanding hero that could lose you the game if you choosed poorly even once, but just because she traded range, damage potential and survivability for the sake of anti-mobility primary fire, she was called braindead despite being a skill and game sense/knowledge scaling hero with 1-3% pickrate.
Meanwhile flankers have absurd amount of tools that reduce decision requirements taking to the lowest of the game, because what they cant win they can escape.
And now Sym is such an overnerfed, poorly designed dps hero that she is magnitudes harder to perform decently with, that heroes who get everything they want to fulfill their roles on demand are way easier to play.
3 Likes
neither are good, dive was good but stayed for too long, goats lasted twice as long and it was never good for DPS players, double shield lasted just as long as dive and it was miserable
2 Likes
I really don’t think that’s it, I think people just want their skills to shine through regardless of who they pick.
1 Like
Wasnt Dive so overpowered and monopolic that it ended up being basically Dive vs Dive the meta? Allegedly anti-mobility heroes were purposefully underpowered or never existed, and instead of giving the game anti-mobility that wasnt Stun Bursts, Blizz added the monster that was Brigette.
wow you’re telling me that dive created a mirror matchup? just like every meta in overwatch history???
1 Like
Most of the time people make the skill argument it’s specifically about aim. They generally play a small handful of hitscan heroes and demand that anything they perceive as not skillful (hitscan) be nerfed to the ground.
They justify this as their heroes being harder so deserve more value. All while not noticing or caring that what they’re asking for is for their so called “hard” heroes to actually be easier to win with than the “easy” heroes. It really is fascinating to watch.
6 Likes
I am pretty sure we had some metas that didnt always devolve into exact mirror match-ups like dive and goats.
1 Like
Anyone that says that Soldier is harder that Sym is at this point completly delusional.
2 Likes
thats not really true, when i say skill im usually talking about the 3 blanket skills, mechanics, gamesense and positioning
moira doesnt need mechanics, she needs 2/10 gamesense, and no positioning skill required.
widow takes full mechanics, middle positioning, and little gamesense
tracer takes the most of all classes
triple tank was triple tank mirror, winston winston tracer tracer lucio lucio was mirror, grav dragon was mirror, literally every meta is mirrored except for bunker, because bunker was only able to be countered by quad DPS
2 Likes
Yeah and in exchange she deals little damage outside of chunking bad flankers in closed spaces. It says a lot that her biggest use in high tiers is basically being the highest output healer and little else.
Does she? With a low cooldown repositioning ability?
Sym takes massively more positionement skills and game sense that Ms. ‘‘absurd mobility and a literal time rewind’’ Tracer. And probably the same aiming skills considering that Sym requires perfect tracking to be a mediocre dps at best. The 50hp difference is NOWHERE near enough of a factor to make Sym less of a complete glass (not even cannon) that Tracer.
Lets not pretend that mobility, and specially spammeable mobility, isnt the strongest defensive skill in the game. Because it is, and thats why Genji and Tracer’s frailness are largely overstated, and why Dumbfeet is way more tanky that he seems.
Tracer’s skill requirement are largely overstated too, and depend more on twitch reflexes that actual decision taking, because when you can get a free out of jail card, you can take a lot more risks with potentially (and likely) zero punishment.
3 Likes
Here’s the thing. You can change Moira to require aim or whatever, people will still complain about her. Because the ones complaining aren’t good themselves skill-wise so they complain about other characters instead of acknowledging their own, ironically, ‘lack of skill’.
Orisa has been nerfed so much that we see more Rein than her and people still complain about her. Sym has been changed to require aim and people still complain about her. Mercy has been nerfed to the point of being niche and people still complain about her.
8 Likes
I literally said
and
Regardless you’ve missed the point that “skill” isn’t the only factor in what makes a hero difficult or easy to play.
2 Likes
she also self heals from that damage, lowering the disparity of damage between them, plus its 50 guaranteed damage, DPS both have to aim, and some have to deal with bloom/spread
since when is 12 seconds a low cooldown?
im sorry you did not just say sym takes more skill than tracer…
Sym is a beam hero, she can do infinite shield damage without reloading, her beam requires MINIMAL tracking ability, because it just needs to make contact with any part of the body, and has a way lower reaction to armor, taking only a 20% reduction compared to tracers 50%
my guy im in the top 2% of players, she just has an absolutely garbage design
because shes still a good hero??? Shes in a weird place where she cant be played with roadhog anymore like she used to, but that doesnt make her a bad tank, it just changed her synergies
orisa rein, orisa sig, orisa zarya are all good comps
1 Like
I love how my point is suddenly invalidated because I’m not in the top 2% of players.
And my point says literally nothing about her design but rather about community’s perspective towards heroes.
Not as good as Rein is on ladder or even in OWL. If a hero is good and should be nerfed, why are Rein, Ana, Tracer etc all immune to nerfs? Tracer-Sombra dominates in OWL/Contenders right now, even matching to Mei-McCree level of meta. I don’t see any nerfs coming to Tracer because she’s good??
EDIT: You edited your comment re: Orisa but my point remains. I’m not saying Orisa is bad, I’m saying she’s been brought down to level of other main tanks and definitely less viable than Rein. Yet, people still complain about her.
1 Like
nope, your point is invalidated because you said “bad players complain about her”
im better than 98% of players, and the 1.9% above me will say the same exact thing
and she doesnt have to be, she was meta for 8 months in a row. Metas rotate, winston was meta for a while, then he was a throw pick for 11 seasons
1 Like
This.
I don’t know what OW’s core balance philosophy is but the concept of risk is so inconsistent. As Ashe, all I have to worry about is my aim. I literally can flank/get a ton of damage with minimal risk. Id find this game so much more interesting if I had to think before I use my abilities but the room for error (depending on the hero) is so massive.
What im used to from other competitive shooters is
“you can use your skills to your advantage but if you slip up we’re gonna give the enemy every chance to punish you to the fullest” Now this does happen in OW but not close to being consistent across all heroes, across all ranks and across all metas.
Inherent balance is largely absent from OW imo. Most other competitive shooters I play take into account the risk:effort:value into consideration when designing a character. OW’s balance comes from external sources which are counters and metas. So the characters seem balanced when they’re playing against a certain counter or a certain meta that they were created for. Anything outside this and the balance goes right out the window cuz they were not properly designed for that in the first place. Correct me if Im wrong
2 Likes
Almost every DPS when played to a decent degree of proficiency can outpace her rather medicore self healing. Only Sombra and Sym are completly outpaced by Moira, and Sombra can hack her to even the field.
There are heroes with 20s+ cooldowns, like Torb or Sym. Specially Sym who has a fraction of her safety.
Widow is way to safe for the range she has, and for the pressure she puts.
50hp vs absurd mobility, free out of jail card, and damage on demand.
I wonder which one is better.
Here is the thing:
Sym is an inmobile close range hero with no defensives and less HP that her fellow CQC. She has no way to stay at the range her beam requires to, unless its literally a lone Reinhardt, because even a Mercy with peashooter can pop her within 2-3s.
The tracking required to start being competitive with the damage other dps can pull is ABSURD. This is math, not some ‘‘feels’’ thing. Sym requires close to 75% tracking to deal the same amounts of dps that any other dps with like 15-20% less aiming. But here is the catch, other dps on top having an easier time, they have a SAFER time AND get almost all their damage on demand, while Sym goes with her glass body and paper bones to close combat while having at least 5-6s for her weapon to charge up. Before that? Her beam is a worse weapon Mercy’s peashooter.
This is all evidenciated on how Sym has lower average damage that tanks, and is on the bottom of the dps damage numbers. She is easily the most glass hero in the game when you account her effective range and lack of defensive abilities.
Not only that but armor heroes either destroy her or should never be alone, like I mentioned already.
Any and all potential advantage that Sym has is absolutely meaningless around a kit balanced and designed around a single gimmick that has gotten her nerfed several times.
3 Likes
neither of those heroes have 20+ cooldowns, mercy and bap do, and those are extremely high impact abilities
turrets are 6-10 seconds, TP/Molten are 13 seconds
being a bad hero doesnt mean she takes more skill than anyone, she just cant get free value like her kit would typically allow.
Her kit was nerfed because of this happening in every match of double shield
so until they knew how to get rid of double shield (reworking a shield out of sigmas kit / nerfing fortify + halt), having sym in that meta was AWFUL and they knew she needed to be out fast
1 Like
If my point doesn’t apply to you, then it doesn’t apply to you, it doesn’t invalidate my point. Am I wrong in saying that bad players will complain about her, regardless?
Okay, same goes to Moira, who’s a trash pick for years up till the double shield meta. And if she couldn’t heal through shields and Doomfist/Reaper aren’t dominant in double shield meta, Ana would have remained meta over her. In fact, Ana is already meta over her now. Ana has dictated at least two metas, Moira has never dictated any meta except for probably the short-lived slambulance.