I do not find my definitions to be a joke, but you are within your rights to judge them as you deem fit
I feel you’re simplifying it. I think that the mechanics of fixing the sr and rewards for hide and rez go to reflecting on the larger issues of her kit and balance of other supports at that time. I think valk showed that rez wasn’t the issue that plagued the other supports in terms of balance. I think you simplify it by acting as if the mechanic itself was the issue when the issue was never even attempted to be addressed.
best choice is subjective. “tempo rez” was a thing for a reason. sometimes it’s best for a six man high noon, sometimes, it’s not.
you’re right. I consider hide and rez in base kit to be significantly worse in design.
Removing the SR exploit aspect of hide and rez, which was done like 2 weeks prior to the rework I believe, didn’t address the fact the tactic worked exceedingly well in certain situations. Where there’s no communication and coordination really. Then when there is communication and coordination, when your flankers just hunted her down if she tried it, etc, then you used it to rez 1 person most of the time. Going for more had a huge risk of blowing up in your face.
Not at all. When Valk went live, with the CD refreshes, and CD reduction, etc, it showed how tempo rez, and how it was used in coordinated settings, was powerful. After all that, we’ve got the rez we have now, and a Valk that doesn’t interact with Rez at all. Whereas before, Valk and it’s duration was basically structured around the CD reduction, and it was all insta-cast.
Disagree. I think I have given fair representation and consideration to all elements of the 1:1-5 mechanic. I consider adding limitations and LOS and all that to Mass Rez just gimps it harder and makes what I consider an already bad ult even worse. I think you are overly convinced that your “solutions” would fix things, and I am more compelled to believe they won’t.
Yes, I haven’t said anything to the contrary. This applies to Valk too.
It’s not the same. Why are you trying to argue it is?
This tells me you never truly read my responses. I’m not talking about the sr exploit in the simple manner it was addressed. I’m saying Mercy basically should barely be rewarded for rezzes ever. Including now. You would know this is my stance this if you ever bothered to read my responses. I say, simply lowering the rez value in her sr reward is not only not enough, but it doesn’t address her issues of how to get said exploit. Fix the issue properly. Not patch it.
yeah, and even after valk was reduced in power, and rez was removed, supports still needed another patch. The support patch went live after 14 nerfs. Mass rez wasn’t their issue.
Valk also showed that tempo rez wass more powerful inherently than mass rez even in uncoordinated settings. So we should have learned that base kit tempo rez was bad. We didn’t.
while never bother to read mine.
I don’t think it needed changes. I agree, cast time and such would have made it worse. Although I think LOS was needed in terms of game design (that LOS is needed for other ults, mercy being an exception wasn’t fair). If she had gained a new ability like fortify or mini disc priest shield, or whatever, it would have been fair.
You said “best choice.” I did not.
I’m not saying it’s the same. I’m saying it’s worse. I’m saying they made a worse hero by moving rez to cooldown. Same in concept, in how a baby and a teen are young humans, but they are still totally different.
Oh. Then yes I very much misunderstood you. I didn’t expect you to be saying Mercy should barely be rewarded for rezzes ever.
So, considering you want rezzes to be barely rewarded, you’re saying you want this just hobbled version of Mass Rez that is damn near useless? Why?
Well of course Mass Rez wasn’t their issue, as it was no longer in play… It was tuning down this 1:1 mechanic of rez and such in a way that Mercy wasn’t mandatory.
Doesn’t mean Mass Rez is the answer. Rez on a 1:1 mechanic is, imo, better.
I try but I can only assume so much without it feeling unfair without further clarification. I’m sorry I didn’t get what you were saying sooner.
So… You just wanted hide and rez to carry on and all that stuff? And for her to have a relatively useless ult in coordinated play? I can’t agree with that.
Oh, maybe. I’m trying to pay close attention to every word I say but it gets hard.
I don’t get it. So you’re just saying rezzing is worse now? Cuz you acknowledge that Mass Rez hide and rez is different from whatever it is you have in mind of curreent “hide and rez”? Iunno. Disagree on that. I don’t see hiding really taking place. Taking cover yes, hiding, no.
Clearly.
Because Mercy is about consistency.
If you’re a God Tier Mercy/Have a Great Mercy game, your team is just flat out not going to die as often. So if your team doesn’t die, you don’t rez as often. Why is a Mercy who rezzes less going to get less sr than a Mercy who had frequently dead teammates?
I feel like I’m on repeat posting this but maybe now you’ll read it:
If Mercy is gaining her ult constantly, that should be rewarded. Not Pure Rez numbers because like you’ve said_ rez isn’t like other abilities. So it’s reward needs to act like it. Trans can be treated like healing numbers because trans acts just like other healing. So it makes sense that a zen with high trans numbers gets rewarded for healing numbers. If he is that great with healing in trans that he outhealed moira, that’s amazing! Rez is not like this. Rez means something went wrong, or output wasn’t enough.
Since Mercy is about consistency, keeping her team up optimally is the best use of rez at all. Not inherently Mass rez. If tempo rezzing your Rein with a solo rez keeps your team up and in the fight better, do it. Don’t wait for your sr reward of a numbers buff.
If you focus on every other aspect of her kit, rez numbers inherently aren’t the most important parts of what makes a good mercy.
Nope, Just LOS. Again, for design in fairness with the rest of the roster. I don’t like making too many exceptions (I’m traumatized with symms many many exceptions). LOS with invulnerability for that one week seemed alright. But I’m not for invulnerability. I think Fortify/Personal Zarya bubble is enough.
Ana could have had this nano buff when mass rez was in play. the entire support patch could have gone through when mass rez was in play. Blaming mass rez didn’t make the other supports better. Making the other supports better made them better.
Rez in base play will always be worse imo That isn’t really giving a reason. I’m not saying mass rez is “the” answer. But it is a viable one.
Tbh I genuinely appreciate that. I do get that it’s the internet. You aren’t obligated to read every little thing, and you’re human. I’m a bit defensive from the previous thread and since I put a lot of time into responses, I take it a bit more personally than needed at times.
Yep. I think that Mercy needs consistency in healing and dmg boost for her base play and cooldown rez has hurt it too much. “taking cover” for mercy is not the same as for other healers with their base kits. Because Mercy is so vulnerable, and to use rez she cannot heal or participate elsewhere, she is sacrificing base play design. Moreover, this sacrifice shouldn’t be needed. An ana doesn’t have rez because her base play shouldn’t require it. Mercy never needed a powerful ability on cooldown because her base kit value (healing) was fine. It wasn’t the best but it was consistent. That’s fair and worked.
but in order to balance this powerful ability, they had to nerf her base kit.
So in design, I hate this because now mercy is full of so many exceptions.
So Mercy, is put in a position where her unique and powerful ability makes her stop her base design of consistent healing in favor of something more powerful consistent enemies for her enemies.
I Say this this way because it’s important to note that I don’t consider having allies the same as enemy numbers. It’s a slightly different way of seeing what makes rez strong and why tempo rez is so devastating. My thesis:
You don’t win with multiple allies, You win with dead enemies.
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And what are those different times with regards to the use of her ult? Can you identify them? Feel free to elaborate.
Because at the end of the day, preferences matter. What I am pointing out is that this version of Mercy requires aggressive play – battle Mercy – in order to be effective. That’s full use of her ult. And it runs counter to another segment of the player base: those that want a pacifist sort of gameplay.
The current talk in General Discussions is that the player population is dwindling – and it’s true. There’s even talk that OW is going free-to-play some time this year.
Unless Blizzard caters to a diverse number of preferences, this game is going to die. And no amount of reveals wrt the sexual preferences of the heroes is going to save them.
No, what Hellsqueen is referring to is the base kit – because Tracer has blink and recall, she has the most diverse role in terms of how she is used: flanker, duelist, backline-dive, assassin.
Her ult is lackadaisical, but her regular kit is awesome. It’s the primary reason why she is part of the vanguard of any team comp focused on offense. Tracer is a good all around general purpose DPS hero.
OTOH, Mercy used to be a good all around general purpose support. Now, she is very niche – because of the amount of burst damage in the game, and also because her resurrect only works in very specific circumstances. Her decision-making with regards to resurrect boils down to – is it safe? And that’s it.
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Sure… I don’t know why we’re discussing the details of how the SR system worked… I made it clear there were many problems outside of an SR exploit.
Yeah sure… Like SR system was whacky. We all know this. What’s the point of all this?
That does nothing to little to address hide and rez as a tactic. LOS wasn’t a significant factor in that tactic, as you’d GA into the center of your blob of dead bodies.
Again we’re just making a bad ult worst imo. I don’t see a reason for that.
No one’s blaming mass rez for why the other supports were needing buffs or anything. Wtf is this coming from? Mercy with Mass Rez was not a meta pick. Popular sure, but not meta. It was Lucio and Zen after the triple tank. All the way up to the rework basically.
Agree.
Arguable.
Ah I should’ve read this first. It’s very understandable. This topic is a bitter one.
Hmmm… Very interesting take on it all tbh, one I don’t see a lot. One I’ll have to think on more. I think this is the kind of stuff that should be discussed. I don’t see Mass Rez being necessary, I’d like at this point that the discussion move past that and onto things like this and how to incorporate that in a way that doesn’t require 1:1-5.
Use it in response to an ult storm: bad. Use it to make a hard push, sustain a push, or react to a counter that isn’t burst based etc: good.
At the end of the day tons of stuff matters. If you care about them that is.
Hmm… I dunno about battle Mercy, but yeah I can see aggressive play having reward potential. And risk. Makes sense.
That’s a really specific demand. Perhaps those members of the playerbase won’t be satisfied and are better off finding it in another game.
Nothing to do with the topic at hand tbh. I don’t want to get into messy feelings and stuff.
Okay… So we want Mercy to pull out the pistol more? But then some people are all “but the pacifist” etc. Cuz pulling out the pistol more would give Mercy a more “diverse role in terms of how she is used” but people seem against that?
Sure. Mass Rez not required.
Not really. Mass Rez was only general all purpose in settings that allowed it to be. In other settings it was used like E Rez.
Again… Mass Rez not required.
I get it. You guys have feelings.
Mass Rez not required.
If Mass Rez is the only feel you want… Well… That’s a you problem.
Nope, needs a better impactful fun ult.
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If I want to kill enemies, I won’t be picking Mercy. I would pick DPS. Besides, other healers are much more suited for killing: Zenyatta with his orbs of death is first example.
They had to force this playstyle on only healer, that can’t hurt and heal at the same time, showing that they fail to see the difference.
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I’m saying that hide and rez was a systemic problem. Not mechanic. If people had started complaining about how they lost with 15 rezzes and felt that they didn’t deserve a 80 sr drop, and blizzard said "You died 6 times, and only healed 9,000; the enemy mercy died 3 times and had 17,000 healing. You lost that sr cuz u suck at the game " (maybe more tactfully) then the issue of hide and rez would have died. Because it was more inconvenient to the player to keep dropping over one aspect of her kit.
i don’t think it was bad. Just niche. Because Rez itself is niche.
there ae plenty who do seem to find mass rez OP, but in general, rez. I’m saying that valkyrie as an ult with tempo rez made us hard cap rez overall and it showed that rez was never the issue with mercy being OP.
I’d appreciate it. This is what I was trying to get at the other day. So when you have the time, If you’d like, I did in fact write all my thoughts regarding this and I’m not very… Clickbaity so it only got a few views and one real response. But I do like to try and further discussion because… idk. Overwatch is making me mad so I like making my hypothetical overwatch on forums more now.
Personally, I’ve suggested multiple things to “fix” mercy. For me, my focus is always on making her a support that is mobile and a strong healer. I did propose a rez mechanic one, but my other suggestions do not include rez as a mechanic at all (I think it needs to be inherently tied to her ult).
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Yeap, and they are. It’s the reason why an analyst predicted OW is going F2P.
I’m definitely playing a lot less – I used to watch a lot of pro OW and analysis, I don’t anymore.
That’s the thing – when initial OW game first came out, the heroes are clear archetypes of something, and Mercy is clearly the mother-goddess/pacifist-nurturing archetype.
There are other archetypes in the game, and they’re muddying the identities of some their popular heroes for some PR stunts that might bump the game for a short period of time, but imho is detrimental in the long term.
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I. That’s the key word there. I. You reply to so much by saying “I don’t find X” or “I find y”. You can think whatever you want, but until you accept that people are gonna take issue with your terminology and actually think about changing how things work in your bubble, you’re gonna keep getting looked at funny.
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Disagree.
I see no reason. Not everyone was using it just with SR exploit in mind. Team mates were demanding it be used. You died with rez you were a boosted bot. That isn’t a symptom of 1 person gaming the SR system. That make sense?
Fair. To each their own.
People say a lot of stuff. I can’t be bothered addressing why people say stupid things. I don’t think you can reasonably argue that Mass Rez was OP. In certain settings, sure, it could “feel” like it. Just like Bastion can “feel” OP in Silver.
The feel is worth keeping in mind and considering for sure, but it’s not a driving force in anything really, imho.
I will definitely do my best to check out this thread, etc. I truly do appreciate and want to understanding your perspective more.
Fair. And everyone has their different reasons for that. If you polled the people that dropped this game I doubt “no Mass Rez” would be an overly common reason.
It’s about hero design as well. Any other healer doesn’t have to switch to different gun to deal damage, they can do it straight away.
Like difference between Reinhardt and Orisa. Reinhardt can’t both shield and fight at the same time, so he is dedicated tank. Orisa can do both at the same time, and she is more of a hybrid tank.
Read the post, interesting read.
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Hard push, nope. Sustain a push, maybe. React to a counter that isn’t burst based – what isn’t burst-based these days?
And I don’t see valk as a decisive counter to an ult in those reasons, which is what mass resurrect used to be.
It’s bad gameplay. Prior to valk, mass resurrect is one of the longest to build up, and is definitely the longest to use in OWL. The specific circumstance to use it is similar to the way Zen’s transcendence is used on OWL these days – save the team, attempt to reverse a lost team fight.
Valk is arguably more versatile, but it doesn’t deliver the same decisive result a good trans or a good sound barrier does.
To be specific, an ult that is ONLY usable to save a team will more often than not result in lost team fights when said ults are used – statistics in OWL supports this, and is the reason why Zen’s trans currently has similar low team fight win rates as mass res Mercy when PharMercy was a thing. It’s also the reason why Mercy was so niche in high level play prior to valk, and that’s the way old-school Mercy mains like it.
ON A SIDE NOTE: Lucio’s sound barrier + speed boost is the preferred means to initiate, not Zen trans + Lucio speed boost which saw some use during dive meta. I am mentioning this because Zen trans and Lucio sound barrier is more versatile than Mass Rez in that it can be used either to save a team from an ult combo, or it can be used to initiate a team fight, either defensively to save or offensively to take initiative. Mass Rez is unique and niche because it is the only ult which can be used solely defensively, to save a team.
The ones with a hero fantasy does. And that is what OW used to be, until the current watered down DPSWatch it is currently becoming.
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Often you can sustain push without it. And usually support ult is there for some unexpected situations, like enemies having way better aim and dealing a lot of damage right through normal healing.
If 50 hps aren’t enough to sustain team, who said that 60 hps will be?
Versatile, yet not good enough in any of choices. Even Coalescence provides more decisive results.
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Hmm, honestly, even 60 hps isn’t enough to heal tanks. I feel that best is 70 burst heals to reverse body shots from a single DPS is good, gotta back off when hit with head shots. This is the primary reason I don’t consider Mercy to be a main healer anymore – her healing isn’t enough for tanks.
So when a game starts and a team mate picks Mercy, I go for Zen in the hopes that 50 + 30 HPS is enough, and even then our tank line backs off when there are too many enemy DPS focusing the tanks.
Lol, I can think of one case – damage boosting an ulting Genji.
I get decent results when using Valk to alternate heal and damage boost a 5v5, but then OWL game play isn’t the same as ladder or QP, the emphasis is getting picks, so there’s a lot of memorable battle Mercy moments in OWL as compared to ladder or QP. I often do battle Mercy, but it’s harder because the instincts of players in ladder and QP is to back off when at a sudden disadvantage, not to go all in dying on point/payload for a reset.
Coalescence is very good, definitely feels better than Valk.
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