We just need someone to slap who ever is making the decision in the face and make them see sense… like…
Mercy > Arguably balance needs tweak to Invulnerable… no… decides to put Res on E and then give her an arguably weak ultimate and goes from balance to OP to having to be nerfed to the ground.
Sombra > Needs a damage buff so as a DPS she can do her job and kill targets, fair enough… they don’t want her to be an assassin… but making Invis a perm up time and Trans locator a perm up time unless they get disrupted or destroyed… just removes all skill from her… and at the end of the day she still sucks in damage! No skill required, powerful abilities.
Torbjorn > Goes from a niche builder hero to a Tank busting meme…
She doesn’t need anything too complicated just something to allow her to survive independent of her team is enough.
Pre 1.0 - Issue, dives in for Res, GA on CD, Team Mates are immobile due to res, Auto heal doesn’t start up, Mercy dead.
1.0 - Invulnerable allowed Auto heal to start up, but GA is on cool down due to diving in but because she survives and re position… she can get away from the fight as the res targets are a bigger threat
2.0 - Yay… mobility in the form of Valkyrie… but it should be an E! I mean if it to instant refresh GA or a super bunny hop or a vertical jump skill where she can then deploy angelic descent (space bar) and can hover/glide down and have i dunno… an extended GA… she would be able to do a lot more.
The issue is, when Mercy dives in for a Res, she can’t get out and even if GA refresh, it is useless if she has no target in a safe position for her to go to.
That’s a partial truth, yes it can be done ethically but it’s very difficult and at the end of the day the company is still asking a bunch of artists to create work for them but only rewarding a select few for their efforts.
And no, it’s not just about building a portfolio. Artists have bills to pay and rent and such as well, they can’t be wasting their time doing work that might not actually reap any monetary gain.
(this is coming from my own experience, I am a working artist and an art student)
So you’re just going to ignore the fact this same post has been posted to you, word for word. Twice. Convenient.
Also ignoring people who straight up admit to false flagging. Nice.
You and I both know you’re not that naive and that is hyper simplifying what actually happened to save face.
You mean a post you were directly quoted in, that you ignored replying to though you did in fact start liking comments made by people who were arguing with me specifically in that thread. Did you actually need somebody to quote it too you again? No. You’re playing naive in order to feel justified in your actions.
In that post I have made a call back to many times you and I have spoke in the past, things you were directly quoted in and made aware of and just like what you’re doing above, you intentionally ignore that fact in order to seem like your argument holds ground.
There’s a difference between adversity and making your detractors have to repost the same comment twice if they care enough to continue arguing with you after the silence ends.
More playing Naive
And yet you failed to acknowledge it when it was actually posted a month prior and only decided too once your little follower was down to dogpile on in yet another thread where you two have done this
No, but cute strawman. What i’m actually referring to is blizzard’s code of conduct.
Harassing or Defamatory
This category includes both clear and masked language and/or links to websites containing such language or images which:
Insultingly refer to other characters, players, Blizzard employees, or groups of people Result in ongoing harassment to other characters, players, Blizzard employees, or groups of people
If a player is found to have participated in such actions, he/she will:
Be given a temporary ban from the forums, depending upon severity
Harassment takes many forms, and is not necessarily limited to the type of language used, but the intent. Repeatedly targeting a specific player with harassment can lead to more severe action. The idea behind this is to prevent any one player from consistently being uncomfortable in the forums.
I’d screenshot and link it but that privilege is gone, so do your own research.
Guilty of refusing to back down in a debate, reinforcing and revising my assertions, and shooting down the arguments made by those who try to do the same to mine? Guilty of initiating civil confrontation and defending those who do the same?
No, what you’re projecting actually looks like what I did.
dog·pile
(of a number of people) join in directing critical or abusive comments at another person or group.
“why do I continue to read endless editorials dogpiling on him after his recent election loss?”
Because it does. The intent behind dogpiling is exactly that. As well as:
It’s Trolling
This post is inflammatory, extraneous or upsetting.
Under blizzard’s code of conduct it’s:
Causing disturbances in forum threads, such as picking fights, making off topic posts that ruin the thread, insulting other posters
Excessively communicating the same phrase, similar phrases, or pure gibberish
Making non-constructive posts
Again, would quote and link directly, butchaknow.
Regardless, your revision of the term dog piling is your way of appearing innocent in form of harassment you engage in with everyone i’ve ever seen you “debate”, as you like to call it.
No, that’s called conjecture.
Actually that’s a false cause fallacy.
A, b and c might be factual, but that doesn’t necessarily mean they’re the cause of d.
When it first came out, yeah, as it was instant, still had the 30 second cooldown but could be reset and had an even shorter cooldown during ult.
Then it got nerfed a good few times and became a strong ability that the character is built around like she is in lore.
Again, you actually have no way to prove this and you’ve admitted it in the past. What you do know is numbers you quoted from overall averages. Not from GM specific stats, the less than 1 percent of the player base that wouldn’t have huge impact on the overall average, but is the peak of performance to properly measure from. So, stop.
No see, mobility isn’t “utility”. However, mobility can be impactful. There was a whole meta dedicated to it, that lasted 6 seasons.
So this far it’s been determined your evidence is opinionated, bias, based on conjecture and riddled with fallacy. Literally the whole reason you or I are even having this conversation right now.
See.
You say this as if you know for certain, when you couldn’t have possibly known one way or the other after admitting you hadn’t a clue how to see GM only stats specifically.
Never mind the fact that Mercy’s healing average was higher than Moira’s so that last part is a lie in itself.
Sure, if we go by that faulty logic you’ve created.
Burden of proof is on you. I’ve merely pointed out how your evidence is bad and the possibility of how the right evidence to fit the claim could dismantle your argument. I didn’t present that as fact, you did.
Actually I was referring to this part in that same thread:
So your argument is an ability got better and does more, so it not going on cooldown till after it does the new thing it does makes the cooldown longer and therefor a nerf? That’s not how any of this works, I’m sorry.
Yes, Hanzo was totally worse than Sym in this universe. That actually happened and you’ve never formed an argument from bias and fallacy. Wait…
So wait. Your argument against Mercy’s ultimate even buffed was ultimately unimpactful is she needed something else, which doesn’t affect her ult, to make her ult better.
I’d link you the pc gamer article that goes into discussion of how mercy played out in the pro scene and how regardless that hero needed a rework to see any kind of play in the pro scene, butchaknow. What I can do is link you to one of the comments where it’s linked. Just try not to say this doesn’t exist too.
Mercy currently has e-rez and isn’t in the meta… so, no.
I supposed you have the statistics for that? Pretty sure she was the lowest pick rate even under gutted Ana, with zen and lucio taking the most played.
Okay there’s a contradiction here and I’m just curious if you’re willing to acknowledge it. Either Mercy with chain beams and better mobility was treading on lucio’s turf, making both those abilities strong enough to replace him or they weren’t, she didn’t replace him, and Resurrect is, was, and will always be the only reason mercy’s picked since her rework. You can’t have this both ways.
They made Mercy more of a general healer that can be used in different team comps, while still making sure she excels in her niche of pocketing widow and phara. I’m not sure why that’s a problem.
Main healer does in fact pocket, yes. Ana will pocket her nano target. Moira will pocket her entire tank line. Mercy will pocket her pure damage dps. What you seem to think main healer is, is the healer capable of stopping people from dying from focus fire which is simply not the case, and never has been for any other healer aside from overpowered Mercy. The mercy you’ve grown accustomed too.
Main healer is chosen specifically to aid the specific team comp, making sure the core of that comp is alive and can pull off the combo your team has built around.
So Mercy is now bad with widow, mccree, phara, hanzo, junkrat? No, she’s still great with them. They’re just not meta right now.
My point was specifically invulnerability mass res was much easier to get off than before that buff, so no, those two weren’t numerically complex. As well, Invulnerable mass res is way easier to get off than e rez. You’re actually complaining in OP that it’s too limiting and easily punished in it’s current state, which is a good thing that’s already more complex with counter play than invulnerable mass res.
Weird, i could have copy and pasted that part as now I’ve said the exact same thing in a different way in hopes you’re not actually being willfully ignorant to the point and how it addresses yours. “numerically” you actually have no credible evidence to go off of, you’ve got overall average across all elo and “numerically” does not account for how that ability differs in terms of game play. However, objectively speaking, we know mass res was easier to pull off than Res on E in it’s current form. You even complain about it.
Anything but, actually.
Mass res alone does in fact have counter play now, assuming we put your proposed restrictions on it. In itself, it’s useless. Mercy is right back to where she was pre rework with really no forseeable use in pro play. Though you also propose giving Mercy a new E, which honestly I like the idea. It’s strong, skillful. It’s basically Ana’s sleep dart but different and I’m bias when it comes to that. So yes, a lot of your arguments are absolutely terrible. Individually and picked a part, even more so, riddled with bias and fallacy. Your overall solution does put Mercy in a better spot than she was previously pre-rework though, with a new mechanic that has a lot of potential.
This doesn’t even make sense as a counter argumant and is basically a red herring. I’m not even sure why I should address it, but alright. You advocating valk is terrible and jeff saying valk is strong and e rez is strong therefor nerfing e rez will make it feel less strong and more in line with basic abilities comparatively is much different from the argument you started with, using this quote out of context to say that e-res in it’s current form is too strong. You acknowledging what was left out, in the loosest way possible i may add, at a later time in a completely different point, to make a completely different argument, does not alleviate that.
I’m sure a lot of mains who hate change have thought this same argument, and honestly I don’t have an answer, their may not even be one. It could be as simple as blizzard doesn’t want any hero to be low tier for long periods of time or it could be as complex as Mercy is a great poster girl and forcing her to be meta is profitable. Either way, balance is balance.
Fun is subjective and Mercy by all accounts is relatively balanced in her current state. She’s certainly slightly under powered and does need some help outside of just not being suitable for current meta, but the core of her kit in fact balanced around. A pocket healer who resurrects.
again, subjective
This is not how balancing should work, ever. A hero’s “fun” is subjective. Some will take to the playstyle and others wont and that’s okay, that’s primarily how people pick their mains to begin with. Because you don’t find it fun doesn’t mean it isn’t to others. You could argue what blizzard did with her rework was dirty and I completely agree with that. they changed the entire playstyle of the hero so previous mains who fell in love with her either have to adapt or suffer.
You’re right. I’m a hypocrite. An eye for an eye and all that.
You pride yourself on posts like these being logical, thought out, factual and articulate. Which are all noble traits, don’t get me wrong. In fact a lot of people seem to put you on a pedestal for these same reasons, so much so you have a blind following that just accepts what you say and do without ever questioning it or looking at it logically for themselves, spamming your posts everywhere as if it’s their own thoughts because for what ever reason they can’t hold a genuine discussion. Needless to say when your arguments are critiqued, your detractors are met with a lot more than just a friendly debate with you personally.
Which is the exact reason why I specifically told badwidow I don’t care to engage with you. You and I done this before, I’ve experienced it personally and by all means, be my guest and throw me some bait meme’s. I currently cant post links or images, 'causechaknow.
Yeah now she is but before the 50 hps nerf she was still in an overused state and outshadowing the support roster, solely because of the power of the single-player Resurrect. Apparently she is going up in pickrate again?? Not sure about the validity of this but if that is the case it can only be because of Resurrect as nothing else in her kit is providing much value and heroes that she synergizes with are also not particularly strong currently, which again proves that the current iteration of Res is overpowered and needs to be removed.
It may be powerful in GM, where 1 player difference is big difference, but not so much in lower tiers, where you need 2-3 players number advantage to get upper hand.
Having Mercy out of picture for nearly 2 s can be enough to secure second pick, as team is without one of healers(or their only healer, in worst case) for a moment.
Key words are “it buys a lot of time”. It doesn’t change anything, it just delays, and you have to hope that it will be enough. Which has nothing to do with Mercy player, only with their team.
Except it’s not possible.
Pre-rework Mercy was considered broken in lower tiers, where players couldn’t counter mass resurrect, yet troll pick at higher, where her ult was countered easily.
It’s how resurrect is: it’s value is linked to player you bring back. In lower tiers you’ll need more players resurrected to get same value, that you get in GM by bringing only one player back. It’s ability without universal balance choice, as it doesn’t have fixed value.
Usage does not equate to power level. Yes she was underused in GM pre-rework but she wasn’t unbalanced. Her kit was still decent, she was just outshined by the other supports. Plus, we are suggesting changes to her that would make her more balanced at all ranks, not a full revert.
This is not true as the tempo res is strong no matter what rank you’re at, this was just the way players in the lower tiers thought the mass res should’ve been used so they did it.
You suggest changes to ability, that has lack of fixed value as it’s core.
And tempo rez is not an option at lower tiers: you increase chance of enemy spending their ultimates, as they are not very coordinated, and you just spent your only way to counter ultimates. Almost like unintentional resurrect bait.
I’m not sure what you’re getting at here. If you mean to say there’s only one use for Mass Res then that couldn’t be further from the truth.
Mercy’s old Res charged faster than many ultimates in the game, especially in lower tiers as the players there have a harder time charging theirs up while Mercy does not. This meant you could use a tempo res but have res available again before the next ult fight. Additionally, there are other defensive ultimates in the game that could deal with an ult fight, such as those of the secondary healer.
I suggest, that resurrect by itself is impossible to balance for all tiers, because it’s relative value is based on teammates. Teammates are different between Gold and GM, and so will be value. You have to pick, which tier’s “value of teammate” you will choose for resurrect, and above it will be broken, while below it will be weak.
Tell that to me: I often been solo healer, so it’s up to me to counter enemy ults. So I have to play cautiously, or my team will be wiped as soon as enemy kills me. Which also means me both not healing to full power and keeping resurrect as long as possible.
Players couldn’t counter mass rez in lower tiers because they couldn’t wrap their heads around the already available reactive counterplay (e.g. high noon instagibbing rezzed enemies as soon as they become vulnerable again).
The low tiers tend to think in black-and-white, rock/paper/scissors terms. If it’s not blatantly obvious, then it doesn’t exist to them. Just like bastion’s turret form and Symmetra’s old lock on beam, Mercy’s rez being considered “too strong” in low tiers wasn’t a game design problem. It was a player problem.
But now we have ults that are blatant counters to mass rez. Minefield, blizzard, and the new molten core are straightforward “come into this area and die” ults that a player can toss out to prevent a Mercy with rez from reaching her teammates, or instagib them after they’ve been ressurected. AoE rez can come back, and no one will be able to say “there’s no counterplay.”
Mercy can be balanced with AoE rez back on Q, but it means that her E has to have an inverse power curve against Q rez. While Q rez is strong in low ranks and much more situational in high ranks, Mercy’s new E will have to be weak in low ranks and much better in high ranks.
That’s the design philosophy behind Pacify: you need good aim and a coordinated team to get the maximum value out of it - qualities that you can’t rely on finding until after you’ve done some serious ladder climbing.
Counter-play wasn’t the only issue with Mass Res even 1.0 and it wasn’t the main reason it was removed.
LoS and cast time…may fix it? we don’t know.
They could add it to PTR to test but then again, PTR isn’t for testing.
True. There was that SR exploit that got players playing in elos that they really hadn’t earned, which put a bee in the bonnet of everyone who had earned their place there.
The SR abusers ruined the games of everyone they played with. But the people getting the short end of the stick decided to pin the blame on the wrong party, so here we are.
They last pretty long. If they’re used near the end of a teamfight, by the time they expire so will the rez window. It also helps that they’re not as “bloodthirsty” as mass rez’s other coutners (high noon, dvabomb, etc) and tend to have a mentality of trapping enemies (vs the “go get em” mentality of high noon/etc). People would be more inclined to hold onto the AoE trap ults until an opportunity presents itself, which is perfect when countering a mass rez.
Realistically, what ults do have fixed value?
Every time you choose to ult with any ult can change it’s value.
Many ults are capable of team wiping, but that may not always be the result and usually isn’t. The same can be said for Mass Rez, you could Rez your whole team except you, but that wasn’t that common.
With a damage ultimate, you can gain more value by what you kill. Say you only kill two people with a Rocket Barrage, one of them was a Reinhardt who just Earthshattered the rest of your team and you killed the most high damaging player on their team who was trying to kill your team off. You just saved your team from being wiped, simply by using your ult to kill the two greatest dangers. This changes the value of one double kill over another simply by the lifesaving factor.
No ultimate has a “fixed value”, there is no maximum potential. This game is constantly in motion and thus value for all ultimates can change at any moment.
50 HPS was a revert to September of 2016.