Mercy doesn't heal too much (with stats!)

[Titanium-1686]

I’d argue the opposite. Healing is so efficant that sustained dps cant reliably burst through it and if they do, it’s just getting ressed up leading to nothing but a choke fight. So now what we’re seeing is one shot mechanics to burst through the healing and being able to take out multiple targets quickly before they get ressed.

Is healing alone a problem? No, of course not. Healing can be burst through, there’s no question about it. With that being said, healing and barriers and armor have all put us in this stale one shot mechanic meta.

If burst damage is what teams are looking for, then we would be seeing a lot more of Junkrat. Yet… McCree is ahead of him, and his damage is far more consistent.

We’re in the middle of a sustain/CC meta right now, not a burst/one-shot meta.

Who said Valk was supposed to be the counter to graviton surge?

Graviton Surge was an example. Replace that with Rocket Barrage, Tactical Visor, Earthshatter, Self-Destruct, Blizzard, Rip-Tire, Deadeye, Dragonstrike, Death Blossom, whatever, and you get the same result.

Support ultimates (with the exception of Nano-boost) are designed to help the team power through enemy fire and/or ultimates; Valkyrie falls flat in that category.

Oh no, valk doesn’t heal as much as zen’s ult so it’s automatically bad?

Valkyrie doesn’t compare to or contest other ultimates, so it is bad.

If you use valk offensively you got 5 people on your team all doing 15% more damage.

*30%. Which is flatly outclassed by Supercharger’s 50% more damage to six players rather than five.

If you use valk defensively, you got 5 people regening 60… well now 50hps.

Only one of whom really needs it… Unless the entire team needs it, but in that case, 60 health/second doesn’t help against the 150+ damage/second incoming.

Now we’re finally getting somewhere. Yes I completely agree with you. And that’s the average Mercy player across all elo’s. Now is it really so far fetched that people who utilize this new ability are healing for insane amounts that shouldn’t be possible in a game. 15k, 16k, sometimes 18k. Yes this was always possible with long games. It’s not just happening in long games anymore though.

If that is happening, it sure as hell isn’t happening often… about the same rate as always, glancing at those GM healing stats.

average, across all elo’s.

And probably across every individual rank too.

Her average. You can cut the smart act. Mercy’s average in gm pre rework never passed 12k.

That is false. I never recorded the exact data point, but I remember Mercy’s average healing in GM hanging around 13k on the few occasions that I checked.

Even if we were to disregard that, a simple sanity test would toss that out the window; Mercy’s healing in all tiers hung around 11.9K before the rework, and GM tends to do a great job of blowing those numbers out the window.

Go check out the average healing and damage of every healer in all tiers. Now compare that to GM only. You’ll notice that GM has higher stats in those categories. The only exception to this is Lucio’s healing, which can be explained away by the fact that he is probably using his speed aura more often in GM, and Mercy’s damage, which is lower by only 42 points, or two pistol shots.

For example, look at Moira’s healing output. It goes from 10564 to 12372; a larger jump than Mercy’s healing.

Don’t even. Every pro player and streamer has come out saying she ress’ more now.

Rezzes more often, yes. Revives more players? No. And yes, I am going to “even”, as the numbers are there.

Prior to the rework, 6-6.5 Resurrects/game was average. For a more exact number of the average immediately prior to the rework I referenced an old graph in another thread and did the math to get an exact measurement: 6.38/game. Currently, Mercy gets 6.22/game.

I just "even"ed.

Mercy’s used to build mass res once or twice a game

I’m going to ask you a question that will tell me exactly how much you really know on the subject.

How often do players use Valkyrie?

Average across elo’s. I keep saying this and at this point i’m starting to think you’re just willfully ignoring it.

Keep reading…

Why should it? It’s not supposed to, it’s not a burst heal. Valk not being able to do one thing doesn’t take away from the thing it actually does.

You literally just affirmed that Valkyrie’s healing is useless.

Simply not true,

Go compare GM stats of all heroes to non-GM stats of those same heroes. Then come back. You will find that those three words are, quite simply, false.

you’re still taking facts from average across all elo’s

you’re still taking facts from average across all elo’s

I am not. Ironically, the parts in which I address GM stats are the only parts of the post you did not respond to.

You’re not going to see a diamond mercy pop valk for the sole purpose of flying back to spawn to regroup with the team.

You’re going to see a Diamond Mercy pop Valkyrie and watch the fight proceed as usual, which may mean flying back to spawn to regroup with the team after being wiped.

Now that you mention it, I have a few friends who have used Valkyrie as a tool to get back to the fight after respawning. It’s much faster.

[Agnostika-1802]

Kazper: Perhaps I am misunderstanding your argument. I’ll write them down as I understand them, and you can point out what you think is wrong.

Argument: Mercy used to heal just slightly more than Ana in GM (which is about 9k). Then Valkyrie was added. Now Mercy heals for 13K in GM. I deduced from this that you are claiming that Valk accounted for the extra healing (which ends up being about 3-4k using your numbers). You corroborated this in the quote I linked. My addition to this argument is the claim that 3-4k amounts to about 25% of 13k (which would be a 33% increase), and the claim that this sounds like too much

Meta argument: The potential numbers for Valkyrie are high, so it’s very reasonable that I should believe your previous argument. My contribution here is to doubt that your potential numbers (prior to the 700 number you wrote) sounded like reasonable approximations of what actually happens in game.

But on to a more important point - your claim is that Mercy’s healing post rework has gone up viz a viz Ana in high elos. I’m not necessarily disputing that claim, but Titanium is so I’d be interested in seeing the data here. I find it a bit suspicious to have the high elo qualification since Mercy’s healing doesn’t vary much from rank to rank.

However even conceding this, my original claim stands - when you look at the total contribution, it doesn’t seem like healing is the problem. It seems like res is. So why not nerf that?

[KazTehOne-1516]

then we would be seeing a lot more of Junkrat

Except his damage isn’t reliable. It’s spam. There was a whole meta dedicated to it, which is why it got nerfed. Widow and Hanzo are much more reliable. And in high elo’s doomfist is gettin a fair amount of play with his high skill high reward value.

CC meta right now

Where’s the cc though? Brig is barley played, when she is it’s to discourage enemy tracer or winston who’s completely fallin off.

Graviton Surge was an example. Replace that with Rocket Barrage, Tactical Visor, Earthshatter, Self-Destruct, Blizzard, Rip-Tire, Deadeye, Dragonstrike, Death Blossom, whatever, and you get the same result.

Valk isn’t supposed to counter any of these. It’s consistent healing/damage to all your allies in range during the course of a normal team fight. Not to be wasted when the enemy’s going to team wipe you

Support ultimates (with the exception of Nano-boost) are designed to help the team power through enemy fire and/or ultimates

No, off healer ultimates are. Main healer ultimates are a mix of both, and therefor don’t completely counter other ultimates. Ana can use nano offensively and defensively. Moira’s ult damages and heals. Mercy can damage boost and heal.

Valkyrie doesn’t compare to or contest other ultimates, so it is bad.

This is simply not true. It’s not a team saving defensive ult, and it’s not supposed to be. Genji’s ultimate isn’t bad when compared to Junkrat’s even though junkrat’s ult can burst through trance

*30%. Which is flatly outclassed by Supercharger’s 50% more damage to six players rather than five.

yeah 30%, my bad. And come on now. Supercharger is stationary, destroyable, and doesn’t have the option to heal.

Only one of whom really needs it…

We both know this isn’t true. Team fights can be chaotic and people don’t always coordinate to focus one person, even more so in solo queue ladder. Even at the height of dive when everyone played dive meta hero’s it was only utilised in master+.

If that is happening, it sure as hell isn’t happening often… about the same rate as always, glancing at those GM healing stats.

You’re saying mercy’s average in gm was 13k going as far back as triple tank when ana was doing 12k and mercy couldn’t compete? Come on now.

And probably across every individual rank too.

You have fully admitted you don’t have the stats for this. In fact you didn’t even know how to look up the stats for this until earlier today when I told you, so there is no conceivable way you could know if this is true or not.

That is false. I never recorded the exact data point, but I remember Mercy’s average healing in GM hanging around 13k on the few occasions that I checked.

You have fully admitted you don’t have the stats for this. In fact you didn’t even know how to look up the stats for this until earlier today when I told you, so there is no conceivable way you could know if this is true or not.

That is really suspect of you to start blatantly lying.

There is no way to extract GM healing averages from Overbuff, FYI.

Like, you actually said this

[Danku-11373]

The actual change Mercy needs is making Resurrect something you earn, it’s the strongest support ability in this game.

[KazTehOne-1516]

Okay no, you pretty much got the just of my argument then. I’ll be completely honest I didn’t realize that was actually a 25% increase. That’s kind of mind blowing in itself.

However even conceding this, my original claim stands - when you look at the total contribution, it doesn’t seem like healing is the problem. It seems like res is. So why not nerf that?

I fully agree, mercy’s healing isn’t… the only problem. And on it’s own, it definitely isn’t. I personally agree Res on E is just too powerful, mercy ended up with the best healing average and the best utility in this rework, which was never intended to be her niche. With that being said, If blizzard is content on keeping Res on E and Valk as her ultimate, other parts of her kit need to be nerfed to balance those. I don’t agree it was the right decision, but I don’t think it’s the wrong decision playing devils advocate either.

I’m not necessarily disputing that claim, but Titanium is so I’d be interested in seeing the data here

I’m starting to become really skeptical of where Titanium pulled their original numbers from when they posted them on the old forums. 11k pre-rework on average across all elo’s seems high, and i’m starting to think that was really the GM numbers that titanium didn’t know how to look at but is now lying about knowing how to find that info. Very confusing to say the least.

[Titanium-1686]

Except his damage isn’t reliable. It’s spam.

Right. And according to you, the meta should be favoring one-shots/burst; Junkrat packs more burst than any other hero in the game.

Where’s the cc though?

Charge. Earthshatter. Graviton Surge. The occasional Brigitte.

Valk isn’t supposed to counter any of these. It’s consistent healing/damage to all your allies in range during the course of a normal team fight. Not to be wasted when the enemy’s going to team wipe you

Considering that a team will have two ultimates on average (killing a team grants 2000+ charge, plus healing, plus passive gain). Using Valkyrie when the enemy team doesn’t have any ultimates isn’t really an option. Then again, the ultimates aren’t the only thing the Mercy should be worried about; there’s that focus fire again.

No, off healer ultimates are. Main healer ultimates are a mix of both,

And Valkyrie is outclassed in both categories.

This is simply not true. It’s not a team saving defensive ult, and it’s not supposed to be.

Then what is it supposed to be?

Genji’s ultimate isn’t bad when compared to Junkrat’s even though junkrat’s ult can burst through trance

Genji’s ultimate can still singlehandedly wipe a team.

yeah 30%, my bad. And come on now. Supercharger is stationary, destroyable, and doesn’t have the option to heal.

And still better than all of Mercy’s damage amplification.
Orisa’s damage amplified/game: 1110.
Mercy’s damage amplified/game: 800.

Get real. Supercharger isn’t hard to protect, especially not when the enemy is trying not to get shot by supercharged projectiles. Orisa is the perfect size to body-block it and has a shield that covers it nicely. Supercharger also doesn’t require a hero to be channeling it to work, so you have a team of 6 plus a dispenser rather than a team of 5 plus a dispenser.

We both know this isn’t true.

Way to miss half the quote.

Only one of whom really needs it… Unless the entire team needs it, but in that case, 60 health/second doesn’t help against the 150+ damage/second incoming.

Team fights can be chaotic and people don’t always coordinate to focus one person, even more so in solo queue ladder. Even at the height of dive when everyone played dive meta hero’s it was only utilised in master+.

I thought GM is the tier you wanted me to so badly look at?

You’re saying mercy’s average in gm was 13k going as far back as triple tank when ana was doing 12k and mercy couldn’t compete?

Where did I say that?

I have no idea what any of Mercy’s averages were back in season 3. I never started tracking them until season 4, and I never started recording them until season 5.

You have fully admitted you don’t have the stats for this. In fact you didn’t even know how to look up the stats for this until earlier today when I told you,

Actually, I knew that feature was there, I just had not thought of that feature when you first mentioned tier-specific stats.

so there is no conceivable way you could know if this is true or not.

Or maybe you just make assumptions based upon what you really don’t know?

You know what? Let’s play devils advocate. Where are your pre-rework tier-specific stats?

Like, you actually said this

“Actually, I knew that feature was there, I just had not thought of that feature when you first mentioned tier-specific stats.”

Answer this question, please:

How often do players use Valkyrie?

[KazTehOne-1516]

Junkrat packs more burst than any other hero in the game.

No. Unless you really don’t know how burst damage works. Spam damage =/= reliable burst damage.

Charge. Earthshatter. Graviton Surge. The occasional Brigitte.

So basically rein is played therefor cc meta. That’s not how it works. CC was pretty true in triple support for how long that lasted before the hanzo rework.

Considering that a team will have two ultimates on average (killing a team grants 2000+ charge, plus healing, plus passive gain). Using Valkyrie when the enemy team doesn’t have any ultimates isn’t really an option.

This is just not how the game works. Lets be completely real here. Mass res was removed because the game doesn’t work this way and a popular streamer cried about it, getting his fans to do the same.

And Valkyrie is outclassed in both categories.

Sure. At this point you’re clearly speaking from a bias considering how much you want mass rez back.

Then what is it supposed to be?

An offensive or defensive ultimate that aids the team, considering it can be used for both.

Genji’s ultimate can still singlehandedly wipe a team.

Not the point.

And still better than all of Mercy’s damage amplification.
Orisa’s damage amplified/game: 1110.
Mercy’s damage amplified/game: 800.

And still better than all of Mercy’s damage amplification.
Orisa’s damage amplified/game: 1110.
Mercy’s damage amplified/game: 800.

You realize that number for mercy also includes damage boosting normally right? Which means the average mercy doesn’t realize they have a right click, to nobodies surprise.

Get real. Supercharger isn’t hard to protect,

Orisa’s ult is arguably one of the worst ults in the game, even orisa main’s hate it. I’m not even sure how you’re trying to argue this. Mercy’s can either heal or damage boost. And 30% damage on the right team can be devastating. Also, it’s mobile. Compared to… Orisa’s ult.

Way to miss half the quote.

The other half of the quote didn’t take from or add to your point. McCree is both more popular than junkrat and in the right hands incredibly more consistent than spam damage that can hardly be aimed, now so more than ever since his nerf.

Where did I say that?

You have the overall averages and are dead set on mercy’s average in gm has changed very little. If this is your claim then that statement must be true, considering season 4 mercy’s healing average was the exact same as in season 3, and 5 for that matter, up until her rework.

Actually, I knew that feature was there, I just had not thought of that feature when you first mentioned tier-specific stats.

There is no way to extract GM healing averages from Overbuff, FYI.

I mean, really? The person every mercy main is so caught up on because of their detailed stats from season 4 as you claim, just forgot how to check GM stats on overbuff. Really?

Or maybe you just make assumptions based upon what you really don’t know?

I find this highly ironic now just for the record.

[Titanium-1686]

No. Unless you really don’t know how burst damage works. Spam damage =/= reliable burst

No one said anything about reliability, although Junkrat did get a lot more of that through his rework.

But that’s the point of burst damage heroes; they trade reliability for burst. And, as you said, the meta should be favoring burst, correct? Going by that, Junkrat should be dominating right now.

So basically rein is played therefor cc meta.

Reading is hard.

This is just not how the game works.

If a team walks into a teamfight without any ultimates, unless it is the first engagement of the game, that team is pretty flipping terrible at ultimate management.

Mass res was removed because the game doesn’t work this way and a popular streamer cried about it, getting his fans to do the same.

Mass-rez was removed because a streamer cried about it after blowing all his ults in the first fight, rather than thinking about strategy. They definitely walked into that fight with ultimates, but they didn’t expect the enemy to have a decent counter to them.

Sure. At this point you’re clearly speaking from a bias considering how much you want mass rez back.

Is that assertion I made about Valkyrie incorrect?

Tell me, what thing does Valkyrie do better than any other ultimate? What part of Valkyrie is at all unique?

Healing? Discount Transcendence.
Damage boost? Discount Supercharger.
Flight? Not really useful in a teamfight when you’re just acting as a dispenser for the team, and we already have a hero that can fly consistently without an ultimate.
Pistol? Better off just switching to Pharah if you want to play like that.

An offensive or defensive ultimate that aids the team,

It’s not really an ultimate, to be honest…

Not the point.

Oh, but it is. Genji’s ultimate has the potential to wipe a team. It has impact. The same cannot be said about Valkyrie. Valkyrie just removes a few weaknesses.

You realize that number for mercy also includes damage boosting normally right? Which means the average mercy doesn’t realize they have a right click, to nobodies surprise.

Hence the italicized “all”. You’re actually helping to prove my point on just how much Supercharger outclasses Valkyrie.

Orisa’s Supercharger outclasses all of Mercy’s damage boost. An ultimate outclasses another ultimate and then some.

Orisa’s ult is arguably one of the worst ults in the game, even orisa main’s hate it.

That sounds awfully familiar… stares at Valkyrie

I’m not even sure how you’re trying to argue this.

Go look back at the numbers I posted. It’s all there.

Mercy’s can either heal or damage boost.

Both of which are flatly outclassed by other ults… we’ve been over this…

And 30% damage on the right team can be devastating.

And 30% damage increase in this case also means no main healer, which means said “devastating” team probably isn’t going to last long anyway. Supercharger on the other hand…

The other half of the quote didn’t take from or add to your point. McCree is both more popular than junkrat and in the right hands incredibly more consistent than spam damage that can hardly be aimed, now so more than ever since his nerf.

That is totally irrelevant to the quote.

Only one of whom really needs it… Unless the entire team needs it, but in that case, 60 health/second doesn’t help against the 150+ damage/second incoming.

You have the overall averages and are dead set on mercy’s average in gm has changed very little. If this is your claim then that statement must be true, considering season 4 mercy’s healing average was the exact same as in season 3, and 5 for that matter, up until her rework.

Except Mercy was pretty bad in season 3, and didn’t really become viable until season 4.

I mean, really? The person every mercy main is so caught up on because of their detailed stats from season 4 as you claim, just forgot how to check GM stats on overbuff.

A specific set of stats that I have never actually sourced for one of my posts. Stumbling upon it was mostly on accident in the first place, and it didn’t provide a lot of the stats that I wanted; damage amplified, for example.

You’re still not addressing a lot of my arguments. For example:

Even if we were to disregard that, a simple sanity test would toss that out the window; Mercy’s healing in all tiers hung around 11.9K before the rework, and GM tends to do a great job of blowing those numbers out the window.

Go check out the average healing and damage of every healer in all tiers. Now compare that to GM only. You’ll notice that GM has higher stats in those categories. The only exception to this is Lucio’s healing, which can be explained away by the fact that he is probably using his speed aura more often in GM, and Mercy’s damage, which is lower by only 42 points, or two pistol shots.

For example, look at Moira’s healing output. It goes from 10564 to 12372; a larger jump than Mercy’s healing.

How often do players use Valkyrie?

[KazTehOne-1516]

@Titanium-1686

No one said anything about reliability, although Junkrat did get a lot more of that through his rework.

I’m not sure you could call adding a 2nd mine a rework. That’s just a straight up buff.

@Titanium-1686

But that’s the point of burst damage heroes; they trade reliability for burst.

Not at all. Burst damage is heavy amounts of raw damage. Widow headshotting somebody is burst, and much more reliable than junkrat spamming an open area like junkertown for example. You are actually just arguing to argue at this point.

@Titanium-1686

Reading is hard.

No, just two of your hero’s don’t necessarily apply in my opinion. A cc meta would consist of mass amounts of cc. Given Grav is an ultimate, and the longest one to charge at that, I would personally say that doesn’t attribute to a CC meta. Brigitte is rarely ever played now and actually has a worse pick rate then Ana, so I’m not sure how you attribute her to this meta. The meta currently is 2 snipers. 1 shot mechanics are everything.

@Titanium-1686

If a team walks into a teamfight without any ultimates, unless it is the first engagement of the game, that team is pretty flipping terrible at ultimate management.

@Titanium-1686

They definitely walked into that fight with ultimates, but they didn’t expect the enemy to have a decent counter to them.

That’s not a counter, that’s just straight up erasing the play, but i get the point. and the counter argument is clearly, that’s just not how the game works, even in High elo’s. Not everyone gets ult up at the same time. Not every team fight consists of an ult combo, or even an ult of you’re trying to save on ult economy.

All of this means absolutely nothing though considering Mercy’s Valk still contributes to her team. It’s not as flashy as mass rez, I get that, and honestly I don’t sympathize out of spite at this point because Now that res is on E and Valk does so much more than Mercy could ever do before.

@Titanium-1686

Is that assertion I made about Valkyrie incorrect?

Honestly at this point, I’m going to call it subjective and agree to disagree. Clearly there are people who think Valk is legitimately great, and clearly you’re not one of them. You can compare it to all the things that are better in different situations, that still doesn’t take away from how good it is when utilized right.

@Titanium-1686

It’s not really an ultimate, to be honest…

Yeah you’re not bias at all.

@Titanium-1686

Oh, but it is. Genji’s ultimate has the potential to wipe a team. It has impact. The same cannot be said about Valkyrie. Valkyrie just removes a few weaknesses.

Clearly not bias. Valkyrie is absolutely useless and doesn’t help mercy’s kit at all ever, not once.

@Titanium-1686

Hence the italicized “all”. You’re actually helping to prove my point on just how much Supercharger outclasses Valkyrie.

Actually that only proves my point that the majority of mercy mains don’t fully know how to utilize what they have to it’s fullest. Considering Mercy should be able to eclipse that number if they wanted too.

@Titanium-1686

That sounds awfully familiar… stares at Valkyrie

Okay I laughed at this one.

@Titanium-1686

Go look back at the numbers I posted. It’s all there.

And we both know Mercy could eclipse that. All you’ve proven is the average mercy doesn’t damage boost, which is kind of a meme at this point.

@Titanium-1686

Both of which are flatly outclassed by other ults… we’ve been over this…

And you’re willfully ignoring it’s application by comparing it to things it shouldn’t be compared too. Yes, Zen’s ult will heal more than Mercy’s. Mercy’s ult will still give her team a good 1-3k healing in a good team fight.

@Titanium-1686

That is totally irrelevant to the quote.

My bad, it’s getting late here and these long back and forths are kind of a pain to navigate. Responding to that initial point. 60 health per second goes a long way, Mercy is known for her consistent single target healing that keeps people alive… Now it’s only 50 hps, but with Valk it still can attach to up to 5 people. It’s basically Mercy pocketing everyone in range. We already know how strong pocketing is.

@Titanium-1686

Except Mercy was pretty bad in season 3, and didn’t really become viable until season 4.

Mercy wasn’t Meta in season 3, that doesn’t mean she was bad. The same way Ana isn’t bad because Mercy has been Meta for the last year. Even in season 3 Mercy’s pickrate was more than decent.

http://www.omnicmeta.com/2017/02/pc-competitive-ladder-season-3-report.html?m=1

@Titanium-1686

A specific set of stats that I have never actually sourced for one of my posts. Stumbling upon it was mostly on accident in the first place, and it didn’t provide a lot of the stats that I wanted; damage amplified, for example.

I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt on this mostly because I don’t actually care at this point. It seems suspect but it’s what ever. Neither of us can find sources of those stats anymore since stat sights don’t track that far back so it’s not worth the argument. With that being said, there was a reason Ana was Meta over Mercy with 12k average healing in triple tank.

@Titanium-1686

Even if we were to disregard that, a simple sanity test would toss that out the window; Mercy’s healing in all tiers hung around 11.9K before the rework, and GM tends to do a great job of blowing those numbers out the window.

If you really want me to respond to this. Diamond and above used to be the top 25% of the player base. Apparently that’s top 10% now. Less above average players means less statistics to pull from with those kind of stats when contributing to the total average across all elo’s.

It’s a given GM will be higher than the average player, which is why we poll from those statistics as it’s that hero being played to their optimal potential. I personally favor ladder statics over pro considering that kind of team coordination is something you will never find in ladder, and completely changes the way the game is played.

@Titanium-1686

How often do players use Valkyrie?

From the short times i’ve actually played mercy, i’ve been able to charge valk roughly 3-5 times. I’m pretty sure no stat sights actually track that unfortunately.

Edit: I’d also assume like any ult it depends on how long the game goes.

[Agnostika-1802]

Thanks! I’m glad we were not as far from agreeing as I thought, and I’m sorry that we got sidetracked into a discussion that was probably beside the point. Let’s see if we can take this one step further.

1. I agree that among the main healers Ana should have utility locked up, together with burst single target healing and some good damage. I agree that res in encroaching on that territory and could use some looking at (something to decrease it from 6 a game. My personal preference is to have a res charge be something you get from valk as opposed to a 30 second cooldown). Moira should have damage and anti flanking locked down (I think Brigitte really encroaches on her territory there).

2. On the other side of this, I think that Mercy should have the best overall healing, except in a tank heavy comp.

3. The question then becomes, how much more should Mercy heal than the other main healers. The devs should think about this, and my suspicion is that they didn’t. This is especially important when proposing a large nerf to one of them, because it’s not clear at all what this kind of thing will do outside of temporarily decreasing pick rates.

4. I proposed the following model - the main healer should be balanced so that their contribution to a match is roughly equal. Not everything in Overwatch is quantifiable, but a lot of things are. So I quantified what I could. Damage + healing is a fair indicator of what Moira does. Damage + healing undersells Zenyatta (because of discord). Damage + damage boosted + healing + hit points resurrected represents Mercy well enough in my mind. The model shows Mercy in the middle of the pack. Ana and Lucio are below her, but a lot of the great stuff they bring to the table (like speed, or anti heal) didn’t go into the numbers at all. Plus, they’re both getting buffed (I’d have preferred a bit more of a buff for Ana. More damage, and faster reload. Or a form of self heal).

Is the model perfect? No, no model is. It’s possible to argue that healing and damage are not equal, or that burst healing/damage is not equal to sustained healing/damage. The first argument favors Mercy and the second favors the other main healers. It is a decent model though. It predicts win rates for every healer aside from Moira (and even predicted it for Moira before the Hanzo/brig meta).

And what you can see from the model is that a 17% nerf to healing puts Mercy a lot below the others. A tweak to res on the other hand (which I think is the problem, since her pick rates skyrocketed past the change) to make it less commonly available is something that leaves a lot more room for finesse and actually addresses the problem.

That’s why I’m up in arms against it. It feels like something done without careful thought about what Mercy should actually be doing, that hurts the play experience of the character without addressing the actual problem.

Having said all that, are our positions closer than it initially seemed?

[Titanium-1686]

Mercy’s used to build mass res once or twice a game and was lucky to get off 3-4 man res’.

From the short times i’ve actually played mercy, i’ve been able to charge valk roughly 3-5 times. I’m pretty sure no stat sights actually track that unfortunately.

This tells me all that I need to know as far as your knowledge on the subject. Your first assertion on how rare Resurrect was, is, quite simply, a load of BS. Statistically, it was more common than Sound Barrier, and only slightly less common than Nano Boost.

Furthermore, you take that a step further in saying that Valkyrie, an ultimate that requires 20% more ultimate charge than Resurrect (1625 --> 1950), charges faster than Resurrect, while Mercy’s averages that contribute to ultimate charge gains have remained the same… and that’s not even factoring in the fact that some of those stats are gained during Valkyrie.

You obviously don’t know much on this subject at all.

[KazTehOne-1516]

First and foremost, i certainly don’t agree with your model. Though it is interesting and i’m sure could have it’s merit somewhere. A Moira with a huge value in this model is actually worse off for her team considering most of that damage will be chalked up to playing flanker moira and dying 1v6 after throwing in damage orb on an enemy team leaving her team in a 5v6 without a main healer. As well, there are just way to many factors that aren’t measured in stats, for example, Ana has always been a victim of this. A well places skill shot of her’s can swing a losing team fight, but that would never show up in stats, or potg for that matter.

It predicts win rates for every healer aside from Moira (and even predicted it for Moira before the Hanzo/brig meta).

I’m not sure how true this is. For one, win rates are only so reliable, but they’ve got their limits as well. In your model, Brigitte is low for example. You can see her winrates dominate in every elo except bronze though. The opposite can be true as well, a hero like mercy who has an incredibly high pick rate will have what would seem like a well rounded winrate closer to 50%. This only means that Mercy is being played on both teams more often than not so there will always be a losing mercy and a winning mercy in the same game. There are deviations to this of course, sometimes plat and below runs ana instead of mercy, so mercy wins. Somtimes master one tricks play Lucio and Moira, both of which fall of hard in current meta for a great reason.

That’s why I’m up in arms against it. It feels like something done without careful thought about what Mercy should actually be doing, that hurts the play experience of the character without addressing the actual problem.

I actually completely agree, and I’m seeing this more and more with every hero they touch. D.va used to be a tank, now she’s a 600hp dps. Bastion’s been left worse than he ever was, ana got her survivability nerfed the same patch they buffed her hard counter, mercy’s rework was completely unjustified, sombra used to be the perfect answer to dive’s mobility hanzo now does comparable damage to junkrat and he has the added bonus of being able to aim his shots more reliably then junkrat ever will.

Blizzard does this terrible thing more often then not where they try to fix what’s not broken about a hero, and they usually just break that hero for better or worse.

Even now, Ana’s 300hp to a nano target is more of a qol change to good ana’s then anything. We already top off our nano targets and then pocket them from range. We already know the defensive capabilities of nano, which this buff was aimed to promote. It doesn’t address ana’s poor healing average when pit against the other two main healers since power creep. it doesn’t address her ridiculously long reload time that can lose team fights on it’s own. But, they’re still going through with it.

I believe our positions are closer than initially seemed, yes. Your intentions are good, clearly. Though I don’t agree with your method of reasoning, i agree with your general message.

[KazTehOne-1516]

This tells me all that I need to know as far as your knowledge on the subject. Your first assertion on how rare Resurrect was, is, quite simply, a load of BS. Statistically, it was more common than Sound Barrier, and only slightly less common than Nano Boost.

And your stats for this are? You’ve got this great track record of faulty stats from questionable methods so you’ll have to forgive me for not taking this at face value. Even more so considering Lucio used to be the dominate average healer who had sound barrier nearly every team fight post nade nerf.

Furthermore, you take that a step further in saying that Valkyrie, an ultimate that requires 20% more ultimate charge than Resurrect (1625 --> 1950), charges faster than Resurrect, while Mercy’s averages that contribute to ultimate charge gains have remained the same… and that’s not even factoring in the fact that some of those stats are gained during Valkyrie.

You do know they gave mercy added survivability with the inclusion of bunny hop right, like, she lives longer now on average than she ever has. Top that up with her mobility being great enough to be everywhere she’s needed and of course she’s going to charge ult faster now regardless of how much extra ult charge it requires.

You obviously don’t know much on this subject at all.

You’re obviously just bias and looking to argue at this point

[HotRamen-11929]

Mercy will still remain in the meta in my opinion and nothing will change until they REMOVE res as an ability.

all you criers act like mercy would be OP with only rez, no heals, no damage boost, no GA, no valk.

she can be balanced with res.

of course once she is balanced, its gonna be “omg mercy is dead, literally un playable”

[KazTehOne-1516]

I agree, mercy could ultimately be balanced with res, it’s just going to take some serious gutting of other parts of her kit. Ana’s a perfect example of a hero that has amazing utility and is balanced around it. Needless to say everyone still cries about the balance decisions intended for her.

[Titanium-1686]

@KazTehOne-1516

And your stats for this are?

June 28th, 2017:

Mercy
520 damage = 520 charge.
11905 healing = 9524 charge (4/5 CR).
593 damage amplified = 2569.67 damage done by boosted target = 1927.25 charge (3/4 CR).
3000 passive gain.
Total charge: 14971.25.
Charge requirement: 1625.
Ignoring usage delay, that’s 9.21 ultimates/game.

Ana:
3668 damage = 3668 charge.
8791 healing = 8791 charge (I am assuming the CR is 1/1, as it is not otherwise specified).
3000 passive charge.
Total charge: 15459.
Charge requirement: 1650.
Ignoring usage delay, that’s 9.37 ultimates/game.

Lucio:
7026 damage = 7026 charge.
10322 healing = 13074.43 charge (19/15 CR).
3000 passive charge.
Total charge: 23100.53.
Charge requirement: 2625.
Ignoring usage delay, that’s 8.80 ultimates/game.

August 12th, 2017:

Mercy:
521 damage = 521 charge.
11912 healing = 9529.6 charge (4/5 CR).
542 damage amplified = 2348.67 damage done by boosted target = 1761.50 charge (3/4 CR).
3000 passive gain.
Total charge: 14812.1.
Charge requirement: 1625.
Ignoring usage delay, that’s 9.12 ultimates/game.

Ana:
3629 damage = 3629 charge.
8789 healing = 8789 charge (I am assuming the CR is 1/1, as it is not otherwise specified).
3000 passive charge.
Total charge: 15418.
Charge requirement: 1650.
Ignoring usage delay, that’s 9.34 ultimates/game.

Lucio:
6988 damage = 6988 charge.
10519 healing = 13324.07 charge (19/15 CR).
3000 passive charge.
Total charge: 23312.07.
Charge requirement: 2625.
Ignoring usage delay, that’s 8.88 ultimates/game.

Sources:
Overwatch Forums
Overwatch Forums

There are my statistics.

@KazTehOne-1516

You do know they gave mercy added survivability with the inclusion of bunny hop right

That has actually been in the game since forever; it was just amplified through the rework. As a drawback, using the bunnyhop now counts as part of GA’s use, delaying the cooldown. Its buff was compensated by a longer effective cooldown.

@KazTehOne-1516

Top that up with her mobility being great enough to be everywhere she’s needed and of course she’s going to charge ult faster now regardless of how much extra ult charge it requires.

She’s always had the mobility she needs to get to her targets. You’re grasping at straws now.

[KazTehOne-1516]

Lucio:
6988 damage = 6988 charge.
10519 healing = 13324.07 charge (19/15 CR).
3000 passive charge.
Total charge: 23312.07.
Charge requirement: 2625.
Ignoring usage delay, that’s 8.88 ultimates/game.

And yet you still fail to mention lucio was actually healing more on average than Mercy as his aoe was huge enough to constantly be healing, ontop of doing damage and the potential to get massive ult charge spikes with booping people off maps.

Mercy on the other hand was played as a pocket healer usually doubled with Ana pre nade and post nade was doubled with lucio. So the majority of healing was still left to the second support.

Your statistics are comparing optimal situations. POTENTIALS. that just aren’t applicable in most scenario’s. Not to mention they’re figures you yourself calculated with a bias. The enemy isn’t just going to stand there and take damage for dps to charge ults that fast. Your tanks can very well soak up trash damage so you can charge your ult for the next team fight. People STILL do this tactic.

That has actually been in the game since forever

Bunny hop? In the game forever? The mechanic that through mercy’s mobility into overdrive and made her perfect for surviving dive when it was originally ran with lucio because mercy didn’t have bunny hop. What? She’s only had it since her rework, and the first version of it was a bug that came with her rework. You’re actually just making things up now to continue arguing.

She’s always had the mobility she needs to get to her targets. You’re grasping at straws now.

She’s always had the mobility, she didn’t have the bunny hop mechanic that added to her survivability being able to utilize that original mobility even better. I’m not grasping at straw’s, you’re fighting strawmen.

[Titanium-1686]

And yet you still fail to mention lucio was actually healing more on average than Mercy

The statistics state that this sentence is blatantly false.

Those are the averages.

Your statistics are comparing optimal situations. POTENTIALS.

Those were averages taken from Overbuff.

[KazTehOne-1516]

The statistics state that this sentence is blatantly false.

Those are the averages.

Those were averages taken from Overbuff.

Edit: Some people were complaining that the above data is too theoretical. In that case, let’s pull up some averages. To factor in eliminations with ultimates, I will subtract 200 damage in charge per kill. All data is pulled from Overbuff, specifically the Competitive statistics. CR = conversion ratio.

Bias. And people called you on it right away causing you to use stats from overbuff, that you still intentionally modified to suit your agenda.

I’m pretty sure this time frame was also at the height of Mercy’s huge sr exploit and you fully admit too the most obvious part

Ignoring usage delay,

There are plenty more times you would use beat drop in a game compared to mass res

[Titanium-1686]

Bias.

Starting with theoretical numbers isn’t bias. Numbers don’t lie.

And people called you on it right away causing you to use stats from overbuff, that you still intentionally modified to suit your agenda.

And how might I have “modified it to suit my agenda”?

I used averages to prove a point. That data just so happens to prove your current assertions incorrect.

There are plenty more times you would use beat drop in a game compared to mass res

You must have played a miserable Mercy if you think that…