Thank you! It’s nice having allies in this, and I like that people like you are using different methodologies to prove our point.
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The reason MMR is not visible in Overwatch is that it would reveal the presence of handicapping. Most players would not engage in Competitive Overwatch if they knew it was handicapped.
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“And i have never stated that MMR=SR, i said that they are direct proportional”
You sure?
“I can’t find this hidden value because I have no understanding of statistical reasoning and I use semantics and out of context quotes to support my arguments, but if that hidden value can be found it would 100% support my false opinions.”
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- The MMR number could be enormously big and can have a lot of digits and a lot of zecimals.
This is a pointless statement. They could easily simplify any rating.
- SR is a “digestible” REPRESENTATION of that number as it was stated in a blue post in the old forums.
This is a misleading simplification. The separation of MMR and SR is not for the sake of digestibility. It’s done so that SR can be manipulated in order to manage a player’s engagement and progress while MMR remains a direct estimate of the player’s skill.
Reference: YouTube “Josh Menke presents Blizzard’s matchmaking and ranking system,” 2510 Seconds
- The SR and MMR, as a result are direct proportional. You are matched based on your MMR solely.
They are not. The relationship between MMR and SR is not static and is manipulated as described in the above video.
- The Devs shouldn’t , in any way, tell the exact algorithm and formula which calculates your MMR because people would be looking to rig the system just to rank up. A lack of transparency is a must here.
They could reveal every player’s MMR without revealing the underlying algorithm or which statistics are used to calculate it (and thus preventing exploitation). The trouble is that if they showed player’s MMR they would lose the ability to artificially manipulate SR. They would lose the ability to tweak matchmaking for maximizing engagement because change in the relationship between MMR and SR would be immediately visible.
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You just REFUSE to put your tinfoil down.
Maybe try to talk about more things in the new forum as this was the only subject of all of your posts in the old one to refresh your mind a little bit.
Why wouldn’t it be? Have you come across a GM level MMR player with a gold level SR?
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Well said! I’ll check those references you gave when I get home.
Too bad the new forum doesn’t allow linking (not even to other Blizzard forum pages). It seems like the company doesn’t care about informed discussion on their forums.
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Well said! I’ll check those references you gave when I get home.
There are two videos of Josh Menke presentations which everyone here should watch. They explain the basics of Blizzard matchmaking. Words such as tweak, design and tricks are used to describe where the system diverges from accurate ratings in order to service business and engagement goals.
YouTube, “Josh Menke presents Blizzard’s matchmaking and ranking system”
YouTube, “Skill, Matchmaking, and Ranking Systems Design”
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Good points. I like your scoreboard suggestion. Competitive Players should be allowed to monitor the performance of their teammates. And I think this information is hidden because it would reveal the presence of handicapping.
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are you… are you serious? They are pushing out changes on a regular basis, giving us tons of free stuff, and you think that because they use a system to make matchmaking better they do nothing? what?
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Maybe you’re only at that level as Pharah? Nooooo, that couldn’t be it, clearly the matchmaker knows when you’ll pick a different hero before the match has even started and gives you bad teammates. Come on, use your brain.
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Actually i would like to clarify something.
A scoreboard of some kind is a good thing in competitive games but not so that you can say “X guy didnt do anything” but more so that you can evaluate situations better.
I really dont think anyone is being handicapped.But i do understand how you feel.You give your best self,maybe you see your hero on the kill feed getting some kills or some final blows and you feel like your team is not doing just as good as you.
BUT you have to remember they are at the same rank as you are.The reason they dont perform as well is maybe they are not on their comfort pick or maybe you are performing below average yourself without realizing it.
I ve had a game where i never once saw my team’s junkrat getting a single pick…or my team’s roadhog for that matter…not a single pick but it’s easy in the heat of the moment to miss things.I was boiling inside thinking they throwing but you can never be sure without a scoreboard.
Now i used a program called overtrack.gg for a while and it showed some really interesting things like order of picks and number of kills deaths.
The ideal scoreboard would have to be very complicated for a game like overwatch.I would like to see things like
For dps damage on each enemy character.Because its one thing to shoot at tanks and another to shoot on genji’s and lucios.
For healers healing done on each character but also damage on themselves healed.
For tanks.Damage blocked ,damage done to each character.
And of course in the end match a green/red arrow to show where the damage done/ healing done/ damage absorbed stands for compared to averages in the league.OR just an icon where it shows on which league average is closer to.For example you can have a gm icon next to damage absorbed as zarya but a bronze icon next to damage done as zarya.
All these things are already out there.Overtrack.gg Oversumo OmnicMeta .I am sure if blizzard combined all these to a scoreboard the game would improve in terms of toxicity but also in terms of tactics.
PEOPLE LOVE NUMBERS.
One of the best moments in OWL is when they compare cards and show stats of the players.One tracer had 10k damage the other 7k damage etc.
Finally i strongly suggest recording your games and watch them again.You WILL feel like you are the worst player ever.If a record game option/replay map option similar to starcraft was implemented i am sure it would be huge deal.
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This is the part we agree on. It is very much possible, that this is the reason MMR is invisible. I just don’t see why it was made visible in WoW, but not here.
However, I don’t agree, that match making rating should be completely removed. Let me explain to you why.
Back in TBC there was no MMR. Everything was done with current rating (pretty much what you suggest) and the result was the following:
Even if you were good enough to be on 2.2K rating, at the start of a season you would be stuck at 1.7 for the first two weeks or so, simply, because on a battle group with several thousand arena teams, there were not enough points to go around. You would reach 1.7 or 1.8 and you would gain super poor points for a win and you would lose too much for a loss.
Ideally, what you want is for MMR to be visible (so you can see if there are irregularities and noobs being put in your team).
What you also want is for the personal performance factor to be removed entirely for all brackets, not just for Diamond, because it might be what is causing losing streaks. MHz had it explained pretty good in his reddit post.
What you also want is the disparity between the allies to be removed… Because you can have a game with 5 Diamond and 1 Gold on one team, and 5 Diamon and 1 Gold on the other. The match is theoretically fair, but in reality it will be reduced to the two Gold players. One might pick something he can play, the other one might pick a hit scan, even though he can’t aim.
Guess which team is going to win. For the team with the poor hit scan, the match will feel super unbalanced, because nothing is happening.
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This is awfull. Imagine if they leaked a chart so we know how to gain more SR/match. People would play weird, i supose.
Also, if it’s not medals… it’s what? a tank basically needs good positioning and stick to the objective, while protect the team. How do the “system” evaluates that?
A healler is going to be evaluated on what…?
A dps “mostly” needs to get kills, but sometimes the correct kill is better than a triple.
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I agree with this based on my own experience. I don’t know what to do. I understand that new smurf accounts can climb rapidly because the MMR is not certain where they belong and the more they win the more certain the matchmaker feels they belong in a higher ELO and helps then get there faster.
In my case I have played hundreds of hours in this game. When I first started I was very bad. I did not know how to use ULT’s. I did not know the difference between Tanks and DPS. I got placed in Gold 2300. Since then I have played the game 100’s of hours and climbed to Plat 2700+ and dropped down to Silver and then back up to Plat again over and over and over again.
I am 500% better today than I was when I first started playing this game when I was in Gold 2300. Yet I am still in Gold as if I have not made any improvement. In reality the truth is that the weakest players end up on my team to help balance strong players like myself. I struggle in every match to win. I end up losing over and over again due to the weakest players on my team who are known as ‘Throwers’.
I have lost 30 more matches than won while in Gold and yet I am still in Gold. How is that possible? I should be in Bronze based on how many losses I have had. Its because every time I get down to low Gold I end up getting more SR for wins than I lose for losses and then the win streak starts. So just a few wins gets me quickly back up to high Gold or low Plat. Then the loss streaks starts and I lose 15 - 21 SR per loss until I lose all of the SR I just gained. Since I have to lose a lot more matches to get down to low Gold my win percentage and number of losses greatly outnumber my wins. Very frustrating.
My wait times are usually minimum 2 - 4 minutes in Solo Que during weekends and prime times in North America. I average 3 minute wait times.
What I have found is when I have less than a minute wait time then I can easily win that match. Players on my team seem as skilled as I am and the enemy are are acting like they don’t know what they are doing. An easy win!
However, 8/10 matches my wait time is over 3 minutes long and up to 5 minutes in Solo Que Prime time. When I finally get into the match the enemy are all onfire and they are all very skilled. My team act like they are blind and do not know what is going on. Its a certain loss. At the end of the match I see that I have four golds and am the only player on my team to get an end game card with 60% or higher kill participation. But we still lost. I get put into matches like this 85% of the time. Since I performed well and had a small chance of winning I don’t lose much SR but if I should win I gain a lot of SR.
I have felt like my account is cursed. I get put into way too many unbalanced matches where its very clear my team is being destroyed by the enemy and my chances of winning is very low. All I ever want is players on my team who can carry their own weight and contribute to the match as much as I am.
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One issue with MMR I noticed again this week. Being the last week of comp you see the boosting services in action.
Now apart from create s#$% games to play (GM players …playing well outside their ranking and ruining the game for 10/12 people).
The real issue this highlighted was that some boosters already know how to manipulate the MMR. As they are rated “bronze” with a bronze MMR…Even while doing well. Basically they know how to tank their stats to maximize SR gains over the long term for their boostee.
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“I don’t care that the developers of the game who know more about statistical systems and mathematical designs came out and completely invalidated my argument, I just know that in my gut what I’m saying is true!”
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I think we can all agree the system needs tweaking. Presently many, many more mismatches than close games are created, for one reason or another.
It would also help to remove performance-based SR across all ranks, not just the highest.
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Well then where is the motivation for me to flex? As OP said, one tricking is being encouraged rather than flexing in a game that boasted about being centered around teamwork, flexibility and countering.
Tried practicing on QP, doesn’t work. As soon as I go tank/support the other 5 see it as an opportunity to play whatever they want and that means playing bad DPS trying to bust 2 shields instead of flanking it. Do you suggest I then practice on comp and put my team through a loss streak like I have in the past when I tried to help by flexing?
Apparently I have no brain, so enlighten me sensei. In the old forums I was always posting questions on how to improve and I don’t recall seeing your name on replies with useful advice. I’m listening.
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Oh god here we go again.