She is bad…or maybe just I don´t know, how to play “easiest” healer, as they claim she is…
Her problem is, that her barrier is deleted before she even starts to fight, has long cd to get it back and if your other support is not constantly babysitting you, you are screwed.
And I say that also from position of that other babysitting support.
do you have the mentality brig is a defensive support in you if you dont maybe thats why she seems bad to you
I only play her on control points - brawl on one place. Not the long distance payload maps or 2cp, where it takes ages to approach someone. Also lately I don´t play her, but I have to heal people, who play her, so either most people play her wrong, or she really sucks.
alot of people do play her wrong they still have the brawl mentality when playing her instead of defensive support playstyle
Not like she’s the #3rd picked hero or anything
People are used to no skill W+M1 brig rather than actually use gamesense to shut down entire comps on the new brig
Not always true… He doesn’t have to be the one infront considering it’s better to send D.va or Hammond first for cover.
And even if he goes first the boop isn’t that problematic a lot of times. It’s enough to deny the engagement damage but it’s not too far from you, letting the dps still get value. from the protection.
As you yourself know, brawl dive was a thing, and even if it’s not that perfect outside of mirror it can still get the value from the dps.
But that’s the thing… Lucio and Moira aren’t that easy to kill considering their mobility. Moira is a bit easier to kill if you have something like Tracer but Lucio is one of the harder support heroes to kill considering his cc, mobility and aoe.
I’m not too sure why you highlighted it but like I said before. Her abilities are balanced and work well for 1 or 2 divers.
As for the shield specifically, most divers have some sort of tool to be able to pass the shield, all the point of dive is playing up close so they should pass the shield…
Winston,Hammond,Doomfist,Pharah,Sombra all can avoid the shield.
Leaving you with Echo,D.va,Tracer,Reaper,Lucio (Not too sure Echo belong here and not there but lets give her that space because why not, it helps your side of the discussion).
Echo,D.va & Reaper all can break the shield fairly quickly.
Genji is a bit of a weird one because dash can go through but the rest of his abilities can’t… dragon blade can as well.
So while the shield is pretty helpful in some situations I wouldn’t say it’s the #1 help in surviving. It’s mostly helpful for the engagement to stop stuff like pile drive,leap or seismic slam.
Why off angles? You can easily send dive one after another like any other comp.
Matrix and ball’s swings are amazing opportunities to push in without the need to spread out and like I said before. Winston’s bubble is enough to stop most of her kit.
And last point to mention is team reliability. as you probably know from previous discussions we had I’m all about relying on your team when needed but in situations your hero should be good I believe relying on your team is much less needed. Brigitte relies a lot on her team only for surviving which to me is just a bad state to be. You take away what the hero is about just because when you combine it with others it can do its job.
It’s like saying Orisa is balanced because you can take another hero with a shield to replace her bad shield.
A hero needs to be able to do its job well by itself and Brigitte right now can’t stand her ground well enough. The fact you have to combine her kit with others just to survive is concerning.
I would give Lucio as an example. He would take a lot of time to kill Widowmaker but he will be able to survive well enough while its team to the killing. Brigitte shouldn’t kill divers quickly but should survive well enough which we both agree wouldn’t happen if the divers complete the dive.
If Brigitte by herself can’t even survive long enough under the pressure than what’s the point of a tanky support without an escape tool.
A big point to make here is that situations have teams, heroes and abilities.
The fact a hero is balanced in a team doesn’t mean the hero as a whole is balanced and the fact a hero is balanced doesn’t always mean every ability it has is balanced.
Teams can make weaknesses go away but if the hero shouldn’t have the weakness in the first place the situation is problematic. And one ability can make the hero good or bad while the others are bad it doesn’t make the situation good.
If to refer to Brigitte specifically: in a good coordinated team she’s amazing because team members can provide her the protection she needs and pump resourced into her so her cc and aoe can have bigger effect.
But as a hero she struggles a lot: not having a utility, lacking survive ability and overall functioning really different than what she was about at first.
If to go even deeper into abilities. I would say her primary fire, whip shot and shield bash are pretty good and balanced. Her hp with 150 hp+50 armor is problematic considering the hero’s original playstyle was about being at the front, and her healing overall is too high compared to this design considering she needs to survive longer, something btw a more focus on utility would also solve but that’s more on fixing and less on looking at the problem.
and before you mention “it’s possible for a hero to change” take in mind that all the point of 32 heroes is that every hero is about something else. If you want a hero to do something different than make another one. Everything in her kit screams front line.
She got close range damage that lets her heal, her utility is something mostly tanks have due to them being at the front and shield bash got a fairly close range, combine that with her low mobility which forces her to come as close as possible to an enemy to use it.
The fact divers enable her to use her kit doesn’t mean the hero should be forced to play only against dive, she should be good anytime you need a slow yet safer composition that can use armor. Otherwize you just make a super niche hero which kind of takes away the point of lack of utility…
Shield bash can’t go through shields meaning a Winston’s bubble is a pretty hard counter to the ability, only useful under a smaller dive comp of up to 3 players. And again, you can stop one diver with it but not more.
Self healing would be nice but again, not enough. There’s a reason she had 250 hp in the first place.
I’m not saying they have to return her back to 250 hp but just cutting down 50 hp is kind of a big deal… The least they could do is give her some more armor in return.
And again, I can speak from personal situations and say, even with self heal and successful shield bash + whip shot I still die quickly to dive. And it’s not like the rest of the team was terrible anti dive… We had Rein-Zarya as tanks. But it makes no sense Brigitte wouldn’t survive more than 2 seconds to dive while other support at least got mobility to avoid the dive. She can help for sure, but considering her kit is only effective up close and mostly for fast targets the least she can have is getting higher survive ability to be one of the last heroes to stand the attack.
If ana is able to shoot you even once while there are stuff like bubble or matrix in your face then the Ana must be pretty lucky… But even if she manage to heal you, again- the fact that you have to rely on everyone on your team just to do your job in a place you should be good is terrible.
In that situation Brigitte just needs to survive and provide healing+utility, not being able to do so well enough is just a shame when comparing her to other heroes like Widow or Rein that can easily do their job if the situation enables them.
True, but it depends a lot on map, positioning and overall who goes in first.
If you push D.va or ball for example you might deny their value but their protections are more for the engagement itself while Winston’s bubble is more for protecting the team during the fight itself.
Some maps like mecha base for example are more complicated, having open space but also smaller spaces letting dive the option to get in without whip having a lot of times to react.
Last point to make is that brawl is a pretty close composition that tries to play face to face.
Even if you push divers back you still need to play close to them in order to put pressure which just delays the fight rather than stopping it.
Again, you can get value and be helpfu again dive. Ofcourse she’s better than something like Mercy or Ana. but it doesn’t make her a perfect option too.
Personally when playing against dive I find currently Lucio-Moira to be much more effective. At least they would take more time to kill even if we lose the fight.
And while they can’t peel for others, their self peel is much better and like any other support in a good match up, they can depend on themselves for surviving rather than hoping for a team work.
What about Lucio? Wall ride+speed boost is amazing.
About the rest I agree but that’s because none of them was built to counter dive…
Baptiste,Ana & Zenyatta are all pokers who can destroy brawlers but weak to dive.
mercy is a weird situation as she’s a poker but also a kiter so if she has Pharah with her she’s pretty safe but without Pharah she’s good as dead.
While making the game the devs has that weird mind set of tanks should always be infront so no long range tanks (no real poke tanks) and support should always be at the back. They did add Lucio as speed is a no-brainer utility but the rest are pokers. This is also why Zen is good with dive despite having no mobility (Luckily he’s also good with snipers and turrets making him a good poker as well) and Ana is good with brawl despite having a sniper gun.
I think that way to think is just weird and silly but now that they fix their mistakes with stuff like Orisa and Brigitte they do start to mix things up…
Either way I agree Brig,Lucio & Moira are the best support to counter dive, it doesn’t mean Brigitte is perfect but she’s the best peeler we have…
Dive was meant to counter Ana, everything in her kit can be easily blocked by dive…
Matrix,shields & deflect all can ruin everything in her kit.
For example Mecha base busan, The fight happened right after the halloway. when the point is on your right and the entrance to the hallway which leads to spawn was behind us.
My position was right next to Rein and Zarya. Less than 5 meters away.
In term of positioning I couldn’t stop the engagement as the map has a lot of walls and pushing them away was too late. Packs were not the problem as I gave anyone who needed the pack, what happened there was dive focused me first in order to deny healing so my healing to the team was irrelevant. After I’m dead my team is much easier to kill.
Denying the engagement isn’t the problem with her and neither her healing.
Brawl by definition is all about fighting face to face.
If Brigitte who was designed to be a front line support can’t survive the dive for longer then the situation is problematic…
I’ve watch all the vids, and out of the heroes picked there. Brigitte,Hammond & Sombra were the ones to die the most.
Brigitte is just the best peeler, it doesn’t mean she peels well enough, just that she’s the only support who can actually peel.
Looking at the video the 2 main options were either Brig+squishy support or Moira-Lucio but never Lucio-Brig or Moira-Brig.
Squishy support can contribute useful stuff but due to weakness to dive they need more help which Brig provides.
The fact she’s chosen to help is just because she’s the only one who can do so but again, doesn’t mean she’s perfect at that.
There’s a reason she dies so much…
In theory you would expect her to survive longer than the one she peels for as this is her job to stand this heroes but considering the videos it looks like she dies way before they do…
I completely agree about the use of their kit. I’m not saying others can fill her role. Just that if you look at the bigger picture where the game aims to have ton of heroes from every role, at the end what will matter is what unique can you provide others can’t? For example Ashe & Widowmaker are very similar and so a lot of times people would pick one over the other because they like it more. But only Widow can provide one shots from range while only Ashe can provide aoe damage from range making them both unique.
Who knows what newer support heroes we’d have. Some of them would have to be brawlers as well and so would counter dive.
Moira already struggles without utility.
The second we’d get another peeler support with utility Brigitte would be old news.
Heroes have to keep clear uniqueness in order to stay relevant. Right now she’s “fine” without armor in a way only she can peel but it doesn’t mean she would stay like that forever as this is the result of her kit. Making another peel support with unique abilities really wouldn’t take long.
You confuse protections and healing. Healing fixes mistakes, mistakes= hits. no one wants to get hit unless we’re talking about deflect, kinetic grasp or bubble.
Hits give enemies ult charge, risk death and overall takes more resources from your team.
If you already got hit then yeah, healing is the way to reduce the risk and let you try again.
But if you want to play agro, agressive play= capture space and fight more freely. Then protection is what you need. You need something that gives you an advantage and was made to be damaged.
Healing is nice but if Genji gets a bullet in the head healing can’t fix that.
Healing can’t block cc, can’t stop damage and wouldn’t save you from a clear death. Protection will.
The fact Genji can build more easily is because you reduce the impact of his mistakes. If he goes alone and just puts random damage enemy support gain ult as well, and if he pushes too agressive you reduce the amount of punishment he will get but no one promises you he will come back.
If to put it in a simple way- Your health starts full, all healing can do is try to keep it as close as possible to full. If you did a “positioning mistake” and got hit, then the support would reduce or even ignore the mistake.
Protections on the other hand don’t effect your health but rather take the damage for themselves, no matter if the hit should have reached you or not, protections are big and want to be hit by your shots. You can’t fix a shield with healing because it’s not a mistake, they want to be hit. If you use protection that protection would enable you to play more aggressive because you risk much less. Instead of giving enemies rewards for your mistakes, you force them to be in a disadvantage while they shoot a “wall”.
Again, the easier part is not unique as it does the same thing other cc abilities do. even if it’s easier to hit it doesn’t provide something new to the game.
and it doesn’t change any stats for your team. You use it more like a tank actually to keep space.
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Speed boost? Your team can now move faster. changing the normal speed of a player is a basic stat.
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Damage boost? Each shot’s damage is increased. Noting about damage or cc. Only stats.
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Discord orb? Enemies defense is lowered. stat change
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Immortality? Your hp is a stat, if your minimum hp is 50 then that’s a weird stat but a stat none the less.
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Anti nade? Your team’s healing recieved increase and enemies healing received decreased
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Cc is not a stat change… You don’t lower the enemies mobility in any way. You either push them back which has noting to do with the enemy stats or stop them from doing anything. Again not a stat. when you activate an ability the stats of the ability can be cool down, healing, size, damage etc… but the ability itself is an ability not a stat.
Overall I would say utility or if to be more specific to what support do - a stat change is taking something the team member/enemy already does and increasing/decreasing it. If you take a situation and increase/decrease anything in it. that’s a stat change.
Knockback doesn’t increase or decrease your speed, it pushes you to one side. And if you stun someone you just stop him from doing what he would do normally. You don’t decrease what he does, you deny it (and before you talk about Ana’s anti nade, remember nade decrease healing not denying it. You can still technically use healing on a target like Mercy’s beam or nano, the amount of heal is just 0).
I would say the easy thing first and say that if we go by that definition then every support deserves 2 utilities, one healing and one stat.
Because her normal healing does exactly what Lucio’s normal healing does and what Baptiste’s regenerative burst does.
You get it in a different way sure, but the effect is the same effect.
But if to refer to the situation.
Healing is something every support can do in theory. Especially in future games I’m more than sure we’d see more healing that work similar to that, and while discord and ana’s shots may not be perfect they already work pretty similarly.
I don’t think anyone would pick Brigitte because of her repair pack alone…
right now she’s picked because of her anti dive kit and used to be picked because of armor.
The second more anti dive support would be released she would see less and less play.
As we can see from the dps role stuff like that don’t take too long. Heroes who already have uniqueness to them already see comparison.
Too many people compare Doomfist and Genji despite these 2 having totally different
jobs only because they both have the same playstyle.
By adding more and more support to the roaster repair pack really wouldn’t be enough.
Why wouldn’t it happen to armor as well? Simply because abilities have a goal. Armor packs goal is being a healing ability, something other support would have as well and so other new similar utilities would exist.
Armor on the other hand is a special thing no other support thinks about. I highly doubt we will see new armor support.
Shields support? For sure.
New anti dive support? Yes.
Armor? I highly doubt it because that will be the second they would make similar heroes rather than trying to make every hero unique and special.
Not that Ashe and Widow are too far (They have their differences but they are mostly used in similar situations) but I want to think about it as a one time slip.
I agree. but like earlier, the fact you can do something doesn’t mean you do it well. I think a hero should be able to do its job well. Not just be better than others.
Balancing by comparison would make heroes lose their identities and would take away everything special about the hero.
If Mei is about walling a target inside and freezing it then why not letting her do so?
Widowmaker is about one shots from range. Let her do so.
Brigitte supposed be a tank-support hybrid (according to the devs) and survive longer against dive in exchange for not having an escape tool. The fact she survives more than others doesn’t make her good at that, just better.
In a test getting D while everyone else got F is better than anyone else but if you need C to pass then it doesn’t really make you good…
For sake of discussion I will agree simply because her main problem is the fight, less the engagement. The fact you can deny a fight with the engagement is nice and all but doesn’t worth a lot if one mistake and you instantly lose… All the point of countering something is being better than it in a fight. If you only got a small window to counter something and then you just have to stand there and watch it kills you in your own good range it doesn’t really a countering…
Oouch, now you’re just getting down to insults? If you don’t want to discuss w/ me you don’t have to.
There are enough splitting showing what is a damage tool for a support, what is healing, what is an escape tool, what is extra pressure and what is an actual stat utility a support can provide.
I get it, you’re more of an fps player who likes looking at stuff from a place of aim,positioning, awareness etc…
But overwatch is an fps with moba elements.
special abilities, stats,syneries and counterings are stuff you find more in a moba than in fps.
Every support in the game got a stat change utility it can use only the role has.
Cc is a common thing every role has. Orisa’s halt, Roadhog’s hook,flasbang, concussive blast. These are all cc.
Sure the way Brigitte’s cc works might be different but it’s not unique and not a stat change. At the end of the day you still push an enemies or stop its abilities and movement.
You take her for being an anti diver, not because of her cc. Her cc helps her with that but it’s not what she stands for.
The second a new anti diver comes with different kit that includes utility (You can easily give a character some aoe, a slowness utility and something like fade to move it away) people would have no reason to use Brigitte.
But if you give her something unique only she has then people would have a reason to go for her and not others. Sure her pick rate will decrease if another anti diver will be a thing but there will be situations Brig is much better.
Oh the enemies run Sombra? Her gun is weaker to armor but she doesn’t need speed as much so Brigitte is the better option.
I would even argue and say btw slowing down all enemies for a lot (45% for example) but for a short duration (3-4 seconds) might be better anti dive ability as you make them easier to hit by everyone while also letting your team the option to run away and not just shutting down one player.
Moira’s experimental concept is another amazing anti dive utility that let your team get 1 second of immortality which lets the team negate the engagement. While also giving her the mobility to escape the fight. Making it actually a better anti dive tool.
surpassing Brig isn’t too hard and would probably happen in the future if we’ll get daily heroes after ow2 release.
And because of that I believe the focus should be placed on her playstyle as a tank-support hybrid and her utility. 2 things that make her unique and only she can provide.
Less about the fact she’s the only support who counter dive with pressure and not just stalling (ofcourse not dying AND helping the team is better than just not dying).
Because for that you don’t have to use a support. For that you can just go Reinhardt and do the same thing.
The game currently only has 32 heroes with only 7 support.
Of course stuff like that would matter a lot. But it’s a fact cc is a common thing.
15/32 of the heroes use it. The fact only she can use it for certain something doesn’t change a thing because who says in the future other heroes wouldn’t be able to as well?
Mccree’s stun is already considered to be an amazing anti dive tool and Lucio’s boops can ruin engagements really well, why would this be a permanent state exactly only she has both? Relying on something that already isn’t stable is just a giant risk for no reason. Especially when you’ve got much more stable part that actually distinguish different support…
Feel free to judge me but if the whole community is aware of that and the only counter respond of people here is: she’s been meta in gm while everyone complained about her so she’s fine. Then ofcourse I would talk about her like that. This game is a game where 86% of the player base is platinium and below (I would assume you’d prefer looking at my rank and below because “I for sure don’t know how it is above that rank despite being diamond open queue”). If a hero is unplayable for 86% of the community then something isn’t right.
Even Genji, despite him being good in some ranks needs more counters so people in the forums would feel good. People understand problems but not always the answers…
If you just want people to pick her in gm because only there you can actually use her kit so have fun.
But if the devs make something doesn’t matter what or why and just remove stuff for no reason then yes, I would want it to be fixed. And if players in most ranks can’t use a hero because you need the game sense of top 500 then what’s the point of the hero?
So yes, for me Brigitte is terrible because she became awfull in anywhere but gm.
Good job if you know how to use her kit perfectly.
“I’m sure the devs indented her to be played well only in high ranks and that’s why she has 1 star”
Sorry for the sarcasm but if you’re gonna mock me the list I can do is to return a bit… It’s really childish but hey why not.
There’s a differece between “helping your team” and utility.
Searched for utility in google in term of games just to give clear definision. Here are some quotes:
- “Giving extra energy/elements/powers to players”
- “Effects that changes powers played”
- “* Control = Moving stuff around
Offense = Destroying Invaders
Defense = Defend / Blight removal / canceling Invader Actions
Fear = Fear
Utility = everything else”
But even if I am wrong just because it really doesn’t matter. During the post I did made myself I am talking about support’s utilities which are what makes a support unique. If I wanted to speak about something general I would have spoked about hero’s job.
So yeah, bash and whip can help your team for sure, every ability in the game is helpful obviously.
But it’s not the special support utility Brigitte has. It’s not something worth making a hero around when so many other heroes in the game have some sort of cc.
By the test of time if you’d release +100 new support heroes. According to the other designs we currently have, we’d for sure see more cc based support because we have so many other cc abilities in the game. The cc by itself is nice and helpful for the characters kit but you need something that only she can have, something that would make her relevant no matter how many more support heroes you’d create and shield bash+whip aren’t enough. Especially after she had a utility before and they just took it away.
She’s never been bad. The people on here just don’t know how to play her. They think she’s a tanky brawler that can contest with other Frontline heroes but she’s more of a support that can bodyguard and peel for her backline now.
The range on repairpack can make it easy to save and juice up a support or DPS that’s taking damage while healing, she essentially has infinite peel power between her shield bash, flail and repair pack.
Briggitte isn’t bad - she’s just squishie for a melee.
1.: If you play Ball you rarely send Dva first because she is just a perlbot and isnt playng as much with her Ball
2.: Yes, you block the damage on Monkey with GM, but I dont know how this denies a whip on Monkey. If you Dive as Dva alone you just get melted in a second and her damage is laughable to Brig, Brig can even win a 1vs1 against a Dva eith all abillities and in a real match you need to use boosters to even get in position and get melted by a whole team. What I want to say with it: Why would you need to whip a Dva wich DMs her monkey away? She barely is a threat to your team
If your Monkey gets boooed you wait until he gets junped back in best case and kill monkey in worst case because he lands in a bad position
1.: If you hit Monkey midjump he gets boooed really far away
2.: On most maps you play from highground, that means just a 3m boop denies Monkey any acces to you
Wich protection? How can a Monkey on lowground protect your Dps in any way? If your Monkey gets booped away your Dps run into a suicide mission
His only advantige over brig is his mobillity, but this doesnt matter because its your job to protect your flexsupport and you want do that if you instantly run away and even if you stay: Your peeling is much lower then Brigs. You basically just leave your Zen to die, so it doesnt matter how surviveable Lucio is if the Zen is a free kill. Beside that, every Hero dies to a 6 man Dive, even Hog
If you play her alone yes, but you dont
Winston yes, but hammond? Hammond gets effected so much by brigs shield. You can block his shots and nost importantly: His piledrive damage. Sombras shots get blocked by shield too and more importantly: You can block hack with Brigs shield. Pharrah and Doom are not evwn Dive Hereos. Pharrah is a pure Spam Hero and Doom is a Brawler
Brigs shield is very important against many Divers. You can win a 1vs1 against Dva, but only with shielddancing. Your shield is a important reccource, because your selfhealing alone isnt that high, but your Shield stalls you time to refresh HP. If you wouldnt have a shield against Genji or Tracer they would be able to kill you pretty easiely, but because you have one it isnt easy. If you main Brig you know the feeling if your shiekd breaks and you instantly get 10 times more damage and know you will die without it
How does it help my side of discussion if you add a non Dive Hero who is known for his insane shieldbrake to argue how fast Brigs shield breaks?
Reaper is a Brawl Hero, not a Dive Hero. Lucio gets used very rarely in Dive anymore because he cant Support Dps that well like Brig and Zen, neither can he Support Monkey much like Ana
Leaving with Winston, Ball, Dva, Sombra, Tracer, Genji (There are no real “Dive Supports”. You play Zen, Brig and Ana a lot there, but they never Dive so I leave them out here)
All of these Hereos exept Winston are much easier to survive with Shield. Its also your only option to block pulse
Not a single comp plays from the same angle exept Brawl and even Brawl comps play from different angles in a mirror
If you all Dive from 1 angle 2 things happen:
1.: Its way too easy to kite out
2.: You dont clear offangles → the enemy has control over offangles → during your Dive you get attack from many different angles → more dmamage on your Winston → Your winston gas to get out earliet → if your Winston goes out your Dps cant stay for long and the dive is over → you have less time zo kill stiff or die
3.: Before you Dive you need to poke to force certain abillitys out. You cant poke backline without taking offangles → the Supports have more abillitys to stop or durvive your Dive
4.: You cant scoute. Scouting is importanr in Dive, but without Offangles you can barely scout
5.: If all damage coms from 1 direction its way easier to peel and block, at the same time its easier to damage you if you are all at the same case
“We sit main, just jump and and hope we kill stuff” is not hoe you play Dive, this doesnt work. Nothing will die and you will just feed. Your vision how you play Dive seems like a ranked match with low lvls where your Genji main tries to explain this comp in text chat to his team in 30seconds
Here is a good overview how you play it and why you play it that way from an Contenders Coach:
ht tps://docs.google.com/presentation/d/10TlnfzxSxcEKhAWTVLNKt1RseAFulTAS8hNm0K8kzGE/mobilepresent?slide=id.g702bb50613_0_32
Its a explanation of the basic fundamentals of the comp with video example, Dive begins at page 8
As video: Overwatch Macro fundamentals I Dive general - YouTube
“A fully coordianted 6 man Dive kills a Hero in a team wich deosnt work together”
If you expect a team to Dive as 6 people together you should atleast exept the other team to be able to peel, the thing you do is just a whole skill difference of a team and the problem of a single Hero
Every Hero dies to a 6man Dive without help from his team
Brigs role is to peel. Her whole kit got designed that way and even her lore is her peeling for Rein. At the same time Brig is by far the best peeler in the game. I dont see how she struggles with her role
Its problematic that Brig cant survive a 6 man Dive fully on her own without any help from her team
You wanna say its a problem that a coordinated attack from 6 people using all their CDs should get countered by a single Hero without any help from her team?
Again, she has utillity. Just because other Hereos have a boop too, or just because Ana has sleep that doesnt mean Brig doesnt have utillity
Her positioning didnt changed much. Sure, you play a bit more save, but her overall positioning barely changed. You always played Brig in the back against Dive, you always played Beig behind your Rein in Brawl, just like now
There is no change needed, why would I say that?
Brig gets used in Dive comps and in many poke comps and even some Brawl hybrids. And even if you would only use her with Dive:
Every mainsupport gets currently mainly used in a single comp. Lucio gets only used in Brawl, Mercy only in slow poke comps, Brig mostly in Dive and sonetimes in other comps too
Being used in 1 archtype of 3 is only 33% of the comps, I guess that isnt enough
Not like you can walk through bubble. It extremely rarely happens to me that a Winston bubble blocks my bash, in pro play it doesnt happen either
1.: Last reply you said 1-2 Divers max
2.: Supports cant Dive exept maybe Lucio, but he is forced to peel for his 2. sup and rarely gets used in Dive anyway. Thats means you cant even Dive with more then 4 people
3.: Brig gets used against full Dive comps with no problem, while Lucio cant peel for his Zen at all and Zen/Mercy struggles even against the slightest Dive attemps if your team doesnt help you
And I can speak from 25 hours Brig alone in this season from low dia to high masters that this is nearly always your fault if it happens, or just a big skill gap of both teams
Send me any replay and I explain why you died and how to avoid it
And she does, expecially in a Brawl. If you still die you made a mistake
Nearly all maps have a highground you can play from
Yes, and having an abillity wich forces Monkey to use bubble early to block it and leave bubble later would be so usefull… Wait, she has one. Brig alone is one of the mainreasons why you play Doublebubble, just because denying whipshot is so valueabke for Dive and even with Zarya its still steong. Just watch houston vs schock Dorado how Jake booped Smirf 2 times away in 1 fight
Yes it isnt easy, but playing your Hero right shoulsnt be easy and its 100% possible to do it reliable with enough skill
You dont chase a Dive as Brawl, you cant even do that. You either Rush backline or fortify on a position with no angles close to point
To survive a Dive after it already happened against a team wich isnt able to force your CDs out before a Dive? Yeah, its prob better. But they also make it easy for you to setup a Dive in the first place because they cant support offangles at all, making Brig/Zen the best combo, because Zen just melts everything in seconds on close rnage and with Brigs peeling he isnt very fragile either
Because if that Dive can pressure Fade and ampbout before the fight starts, making them extremely fragile
Lucio is a mainsupport, Moira isba flex support
If you as Moira fade away your Lucio or even Mercy dont need your ortectjon that nuch anyway, but if you walk away as Lucio you keave your fragile flexsupport with no peeling
You only look at the selfsustain of a single Hero and igborr his peeling and the context of the wjole teamfight as a whole
The mainreason is his harmony being insanely steong on Tracer, but yeah, thats also 1 reason. I never denied that and said multiple times already that Brig/Zen is the best combo for Dive mirrors
Overall this is true, but I dont know if you realized that matrix lasts for obly 2 seconds and you use this to get Monkey in. You cant DM Ana shots with no DM left
Where are your Dps? Did anyone wasted CDs before the Dive? Where dis your Brawl position?.. again, plenty of questions. Juts try to get a replay of anything
Maybe because both Moira and Lucio get only played with Brawl, while Brig isnt good in Brawl?
The whole point of the videos were just that you can play Brig into a 6 man Dive, while you said you cant do that
No, every Mainsupport can peel but Brig is just extremely good at that job. She has 2 peeling abillitys + 70hps onto her peel target, what else do you want? A immortallity firld with 500HP?
Your whole logic here is wrong. If you look at Hog meta you play “Dive” against him on many maps, Hog was always the first one dying and this nearly every fight. Is Hog now a too squishy and easy to kill target?
Just because a full Dive kills somethig that doesnt mean it isnt surviveable, a full Dive can even Dive tanks and still kills them. Brigs peeling is just so insnae that it is hard to kill Zen first, the reason why Brig dies first is just target priority. In hog Meta you killed Hog first because he peeled for his whole team, now you kill Brig first because she peels for the whole team
And Brig is the only support who has a fight winning Ult if unmatched, the only mainsupport who can enable Divers, the only Support with a shield
Moiras problem isnt her uniqueness, its just that the thing that makes her unique is useless
Lucio was trash in most time of 2020, but not because he wasnt unique, because his unique abillity (Speed) was not that helpfull at the time
In order to get value you need to play from an position where you cam get damaged. If you as Genji nanoblade to win a fight people will shot at you, is that a mistake? No, because you exchange taking damage for being able to get in a more close ranged position.
If you get damaged for no reason that is a mistake, but if you get calue from it it isnt. If you ad Rein take damage qhike rotating to point you exchange your HP for a better position for your team, is that a mistake?
Your HP is a reccource, expecially as Tank. Yes, taking damage for no reason is a mistake, but its always a mistake if you waste reccources for no reason
If you have more HP you can go more aggresive without dying. HP enable you to get in better positions and do more damage.
HP is not made to be damaged? I guess a perfcet player who makes no mistakes would play the exact same with 1 HP and 1000HP
As Brig you can prepack, that means you get instantly heald while taking damage. That means you acn deal more damage before yiu are forced to
Taking a single HP damage is always a mistake. You cant push without losing HP
Who is better:
A: a genji who shoots 1 shurikens and then sintantly dashes out to take no damage
B: a genji who shoots 12 shurikens, forces Ana to use nade, gets the attentiln of 3 people, builds 12 times more blade charge and reduces the Dupports HP to 50HP, but dashes out with 50HP left
Acorsing to your argument the 1. Genji was better because he didnt took damage
In order to do stuff you need to take damage, there is no way arouns. Having 500HP has no advantige over 1HP if you dont take damage anyway, in order to make use out of HP you have to get damaged
You do. A stun denies mobillity, a Boop denies you from walking forward
I just think you heaviely underrate Brigs insane utillity, expecially pack. You also heaviely underrate how much you need to setup a dive and how hard it is to Dive a Zen/Brig. Just conpare these 2 Dives:
A: Winston, Dva, Tracer, Sombra/Genji, Lucio, Zen
B: Winston, Dva, Tracer, Sombra, Brig, Zen
OG Dive was hyperaggressive, the first Dive won and it was much easier to setup a Dive and Zen had less protection. Once both teams setup you was going, no stop
Brig Dive plays muchvnore passive, because itd so much harder to Dive without already having an advantige
Brigitte takes more game sense than mechanical execution. While other supports might be mechanically harder she has a higher game knowledge floor.
I would say otherwise. I wouldn’t call Diamond very coordinated but I climbed through it with her this season
That’s this meta. Not too long ago Brig was meta
That’s in this meta. She was meta not too long ago.
She’s the easiest healer mechanically, but she requires a greater amount of game knowledge/sense than the other healers
That’s more of a testament to their skill as a player rather than Brig being good. In the right hands, the weakest character in the game could be one-tricked to the top of the leaderboard three times over.
We kind of walked off topic in most of this discussion so while I do have some replies I would try to come back to my original point in order to make stuff a bit more organized if that’s ok with you.
Brigitte by design alone, not talking about balance yet. Is a support-tank hybrid that translate that into peeling.
- Normal support can heal others but not protect it, making the enemies damage less meaningful which stalls the fight for longer but gives enemies more ult charge and more chance to kill her.
- Normal tanks can peel by protection a team member, denying the damage for a bit while putting their own pressure.
- Dps can peel by placing high pressure and kill potential on enemies
Brigitte takes support’s heal and tank’s protection and combine it into one. Healing a target while using shield and cc to force the target to focus her or at least deny some damage.
That’s first thing, then I would go a bit deeper and say her kit is split into 2 parts to help her against a dive.
- Anti engagement part that responsible to stop divers from pushing too aggressivly, that part is made out of her shield bash and whip shot. Both stops enemies from coming closer noting about healing or survive ability yes considering you only need to stop the engagement rather than doing anything yet.
- Anti fight against dive. That part is responsible for dealing with divers during the fight itself where pressure comes from both sides and mobility takes place. Her primary fire,passive, repair pack and hp combined with armor are responsible for that part. all of this are responsible to put pressure on divers while stalling the fight longer (More heal and more armor= more time it takes for divers to get a kill).
Her ultimate is kind of a combination of the 2 as it let you deal with both the engagement and the fight better. It lasts 10 seconds so in theory if divers use mobility to get in you can use it immediately to punish the aggression.
But I guess that by your standards it would go to anti fight part as enemies can bait it? Either way the ultimate is less important so it doesn’t really matter.
Then I move to balancing.
Before touching balancing I would say the game needs to make heroes in a way every hero can see play in the ladder.
I don’t expect every hero to be used to its maximum in every rank but every hero should be at least decent… I mean- it’s just fair the game will be playable for 86% of the players and not just the top of the top…
So Widow for example may require a lot of skill to reach her maximum value but across the ladder putting body shots can get some value as well while being able to put headshots on big headed targets isn’t impossible as well.
Back to the subject.
In term of Brigitte’s engagement part of the kit, we both agree she can do it very well.
My problem with her is her fighting part of her kit.
Forget pro play for now as it only shows the top of players, and like I said before. Balancing around the top of the top could have been nice if it was a show, but as a video game you’d expect every hero to be useful in the ladder (even if Brig doesn’t see any use it doesn’t mean she’s too bad as some heroes see no use and still considered to be good in the ladder. She’s not one of them)
No matter what rank you speak about in the ladder Brigitte doesn’t pass the 6th most played support so it’s a fact she struggles in at least one way if she’s in such a bad spot.
If pro players use her good, it’s nice for them but they’re not the big part of the player base who play the game.
Just to be clear, her anti engagement part of her kit was not nerfed by much and was pretty much the same when she was good in the ladder as well.
What was nerfed during the time she struggled was
Repair pack & Her hp. not saying yet this is the problem, just presenting info about the hero…
If I look at her hp mathematically alone, lets look at her father. One of the best anti dive heroes in the game. He’s similar to her in a way unlike other dive counters he can always be damaged and put damage
I ignore healing and damage in this comparison as Torb technically can do up to 156 damage per second while Brigitte can provide up to 106 healing per second but can also put her own pressure that can reach 350 damage per second but at the same time can also only do 15 healing per second and 58.33 damage. All depending on the situation.
Both ofcourse would recieve similar help with healing and dmg for the comparison.
By normal hp alone, Torb has 200 hp+ 50 armor + 100 temporary armor from overload.
Brigitte has 150 hp+50 armor
Which in hp against something like Tracer translates into 500 hp for Torb and 250 hp for Brigitte.
If I include extra help, Torb also got 250 hp turret and Brig also has 250 hp shield. Same hp for 2 objects both are easy to hit due to size and divers’ close range, and both can heal in risk for the hero.
We can both see Brigitte got half the hp of Torb.
Now I understand there are some other factors like torb’s big hit box and head box and Brig being able to heal more and Brig’s damage going through shields means she can kind of survive more.
But 1/2 the hp? 250 hp difference would take Brigitte almost 17 seconds to repair.
And it’s not like Brigitte’s self heal is unique to her, she gives the same healing to everyone around.
And before you include cc, I can also speak about Torb’s overload giving him more speed as well so there are a lot of factors here that kind of cancel each other (Sure it’s not perfect math but we’ve seen what 25 hp does to a hero, talking about higher values is effecting for sure).
Mathematically alone Brigitte is in a much worse case having 1/2 of Torb’s hp.
Even with all of these factors, the least she can have is 300 hp with armor…
Now I’m fully aware of that 200 hp +50 armor was too much for her but I truly believe it’s simply because the hp total of 250 just cancels a lot of abilities and combos.
Brigitte should reward burst but also punish low damage per pallet. That’s one of the reasons I believe she was so strong in higher ranks, you could easily take the hp advantage and survive much more with her. (That’s a big reason why I think 100 hp + 100 armor would only be good for her as high ranks would still be able to exploit her weaknesses while lower ranks would still get use of her against dive).
So if to conclude the hp part, the whole ladder should be able to use her and not just the highest ranks. Every hero that fights so close in the game has either more hp or abilities that increase their survive ability like mobility, extra hp or damage immunity, even if she’s fine in gm it doesn’t mean she’s balanced in the ladder…
Torb,Mei,Reaper,Doomfist, Reinhardt all got the extra hp while Reaper+Mei got also damage immunity.
And most if not all divers got the mobility to survive well upclose.
Just by comparing her to others alone it’s fair she would have more hp total… (Don’t speak about her shield because then I can speak about Torb’s turret, Mei’s ice wall,Rein’s shield etc…)
Moving to her repair pack and more specifically to her healing as a whole. We already talked about close range heroes needing more survive ability ,which means Brigitte can in theory survive for longer because up close the situation is more risky. Because of that I believe she needs less focus on healing as healing is a more general ability that works well almost every time.
Shifting some power into armor should solve the problem as you provide the same thing or even more against certain heroes but provide much less against anything else.
With less healing overall and a bit more focus on utility the hero would be able to provide more for certain situations making her better for some situations and worse for others.
Another big reason I think Brigitte needs armor is just the simple reason every support with the exception of Moira who also tried it btw in an experimental has an original stat based utility.
It doesn’t matter if you count cc as a utility or not because it’s not unique.
The point of a unique stat boost change is that even after 100 new heroes the original stat boost stays original acting as something the hero is known for.
Cc is common in the game with 1/3 the cast using it, the chance we would have a new brawl support with cc is pretty common, it may not be excacly Brig but it doesn’t mean it wouldn’t be similar.
Ana & Zen have the same playstyle and both can heal from range. What makes them difference is their healing, damage and utility.
Heroes with the same healing is possible,Noting problematic about 2 support with the same healing values. Brig & Lucio are fairly similar in that way.
And damage isn’t that problematic as well… Mercy’s pistol and Ana’s primary fire (scoped and un-scoped) do almost the same damage including reload.
You can even talk about the way they heal and even then I can talk about Brig’s and Lucio’s aoe around them.
The only things that stay unique in a hero is the stat utility they have and their survive ability tool.
Brigitte’s survive ability and cc is amazing survive ability tool but noting about stat changes… Stuns don’t take a stat and change it. Knockback is not a stat. You don’t deny mobility, you just push a hero to a different side, working more on extra movement rather than changing the speed of a hero.
And stun is not a stat of ability and movement. The fact it stops mobility might count as a stat but it’s not something that can last for long enough for the team to actually use.
You help your team and assist them but not giving them something to work with themselves. Without communication, stunning Tracer for example would only be effective for Brigitte herself. That’s also why so many other heroes got stuns and use them for different uses.
Armor on the other hand gives a specific advantage to your team and last long enough for your team to use. Now a team member can choose to walk into consistent damage with low damage per bullet and survive longer.
If to conclude:
By the power of democracy and the devs want more money as a company the game should be fair to normal players as well and so Brigitte’s current state isn’t that great…
But at the same times the reason for her nerfs need to be fixed
V
Heroes who fight up close need to survive more, getting some sort of extra hp, mobility or immunity to damage
V
Heroes who can survive more can heal longer and so she gets a lot of power from surviving.
V
With less focus on heal and more focus on armor she has more survive ability and help in some situations but less in others making her more niche- bad in some situations but good when she supposed to be good making her good for all ranks. Which also helps the roles being more diverse considering if not every hero can be used anytime then every hero would see more play in the situations its good
+
Every other support got a survive ability tool (Lucio’s boop, Ana’s sleep dart, Mercy’s guardian angel etc…) and a stat based utility that the team can use for an advantage but they choose if to gain the advantage or not. Brigitte’s cc is much more helpful at letting her survive while her stuns and knockback are too quick for anyone to actually gain any value from most of the times.
Healing doesn’t count as a utility as every support provides utility and so competing only with healing means others can easily surpass you unless you provide something too special like highest healing in the game or who knows what…
brig also has a survive ability if u didn’t know but low rank people never use it shield bash you should be using sheild bash as mobility to escape away
brigs power is not her healing because even without her heals she would still be good its taking away certain positions of the map that really good on the enemy team for example the high ground on Hollywood first point which is really powerful for ur team brig can take that by herself which means that the enemy team cant tank the high ground which leaves ur team at such an advantage
It’s less than 7 meters… Dive can easily counter Hanzo that has a bit more range on leap.
Not to mention most of the time using shield bash to stun someone is more effective as it gives you more time to heal, top key abilities and put pressure on an enemy.
How can she take that by herself? She has less hp than any other tank…
Rein himself is enough to kill her.
We’re talking current Brig not release Brig 
Her cc is nice but 200 hp is pretty noting…
I don’t think having virtually all supports suck against dive is the way to go, unless we want to relive the “glory days” of 2017.
There is a very obvious reason why anti-dive is present within every role these days.
I wouldn’t consider Lucio “anti-dive” simply because a skilled player has the capability to defend or even fight back against it while using him. Outside of Boop and “backing up to catch the dive” while using Speed Boost, he offers no anti-dive utility.
You are gonna have to explain this “very obvious reason” since it’s gotta be so significant that it outweighs fixing queue times.
The way I see it we got 3 options for high tier
- Wannabe GOATs
- I.e. Brawl with way too many defensive abilities
- DoubleBarrier
- I.e. Bunker with way too many defensive abilities
- Dive
valid anecdote that I agree with and sounds correct from my I game experience against and as brig gets 27 likes
“she is bad” with extra steps gets 42 likes
the reason people get mad over buffing her is because she is a fundamentally op hero
this is correct
everyone who has ever said brig is bad is a feeder
1 Like
Right, I figured I would.
The “obvious reason” I’m referencing is the Dive mentality and overall strategy:
- Jump on Support heroes and delete them before they have an opportunity to react or get bailed out by teammates.
- Eliminate the next major threat or any other isolated target(s)
- Clean up.
If anti-dive measures from the Support role were to largely be removed or cease to exist entirely, it would be very easy for dive to thrive on its simple yet effective strategy despite the coordination that’s usually associated with a well-oiled dive comp.
Back in the days of classic dive, even a sloppily executed dive was typically effective because it was relatively easy to pick off supports who had no means of fighting back. This is why heroes like Brigitte and, to some extent, Moira came to be, after all. Support players needed the tools to fight back against dive on their own without having to rely on their (sometimes self-serving) teammates to do the job for them.
Ana (who is arguably one of the most susceptible heroes to Dive strategy) was a mainstay then, and continues to be to this day due to large reductions in the overall healing output of other supports while Ana has remained largely untouched outside of some marginal numerical changes.
I think that outweighs any considerations of queue times because it is my belief that it will make supports feel sucky to play outside of higher skill brackets where the reliability and propensity to actively protect your allies is typically present. If supports were to be adjusted to be even more vulnerable to Blitzkrieg strategies such as dive, less players would play Support this exacerbating whatever issues there are with queue times.
Hell, as far as I’m concerned, Dive is looked at through the rose-tinted lenses of the executors of dive rather than as the recipients of the onslaught.
Except MonkeyBall. I really love MonkeyBall.
Okay so you might lose some high tier support players. Oh well.
You’d need to lose 3x GM/Masters Support players to cancel out gaining 1x Tank player.
The math doesn’t really suggest Support players are more important to queue times than Tank players.
Additionally, high tier compositions basically boil down to these 3 choices:
- Wannabe GOATs
- I.e. Brawl with way too many defensive abilities
- DoubleBarrier
- I.e. Bunker with way too many defensive abilities
- Dive
Dive is the clear and obvious better choice of those three. Given how it’s the only composition where FPS mechanics overweight MOBA mechanics.