This reply should honestly be stickied
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Hate to break it to you, but thier has been dozens of changes that came from the lower tiers influence.
Like how they changed hog back in the day, They hesitance to touch Sym and Torb because of how they can cheese out lower tiers.
The time their putting into changing 2CP
(Something that the pro’s never had an issue with)
The resources their putting into LFG, the Workshop, and arcade modes are definitely not for the OWL.
Random things like genji’s old ledge grab tech was removed do to the fact it wasn’t something that everyone could do.
Etc Etc. The heigher tiers are definitely a starting point, and the trickle down balancing does have it’s issues.
but the fact that we are not being ignored in most cases, it’s that you can’t expect that everything be tuned to your liking.
Problem with that is OWL exists, and GM tries to replicate it’s strats. Balancing around all 3 is still probably the meta for balance.
The strats don’t have to be pulled off with finesse on ladder, but they are much much more used after appearing in OWL - it should be balanced FOR ladder, while using OWL as a useful tool in crushing overly potent strategies. So still balance around OWL to an extent, but FOR the ladder primarily.
I’m just one guy, could be wrong yet still. But Theeenks c:
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Except like someone else pointed out
The game could be perfectly balanced and perception will play into it a huge amount. That literally is why hero pools was born. But they didn’t stick with or execute this Structure change at all for no reason.
You have one child who demands sweets all the time because that makes them feel good. Child two is like, I wanna drink battery acid. I’m tired of coke.
You as the one in power needs to say
… Hmmm battery acid is a no. But maybe coke hasn’t been all that great either.
You won’t get a perfect balance ever. But if meta is 90% perception, you’ll never see where you really are. So by confirming that owl is top and perfect, you’re handicapping what should be the goal: the growth of both kids. And one is leading you to give both cavities.
Owl balancing isn’t going to work because no prioritization works when social factors are so major in the execution of play.
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I don’t mind that the game is primarily balanced around top play to ensure a fair game. I am concerned that they appear to be balancing the game around what’s flashy or looks good on stream. That’s not a good sign.
I don’t think it can work. Take Sombra for example. She’s meta in OWL rn and terrible at every single rank on ladder…even GM. So what is to be done with her? OWL games are designed around a handful of players who all know each other and scrim for like 8 hours per day. Ladder is balanced around random people who play for fun mostly. These things are too different to be balanced together.
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All heroes should be equally skilled and have the same impact but these forced metas or star skill systems have made it impossible to balance because they have to appease every criteria.
I also think PC and consoles should be balanced seperately, people like Dodo will claim they are the same game when in reality they are not, its much slower, especially at higher ELO play. And because of that certain heroes that do incredibly well on console underperform on PC, which leads to the question of what to balance and what not to.
OW balancing is a huge mess, and I think it goes further than making OWL money and forcing metas.
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Sorry bud but that’s NEVER going to happen…that’s a very ideological way of looking at balance and ultimately unrealistic
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Oh im aware, and its sad, but forcing metas through new heroes, bad reworks, OWL pandering, console vs PC, and e-celeb crying is not true balance, and never will be
I wasn’t going to read this, because I was confused with your title.
But I agree, many people can have selective hearing when it suits their narrative.
That’s corporate speak. It’s like when they say that they care about diversity, inclusion, world peace, and other nonsense like that while using slave labor overseas. Or in the case of Blizzard, being shills for China. “Yes. Your voice is important. We just don’t listen to it.”
Overwatch was created not knowing what it wanted to be, I know it was originally going to be an MMO but ultimately was released as a casual FPS game with a blend of other genre elements… and then they decided they wanted it to be a competitive game.
This is a major issue with the game; there is two significantly different aspects of play going on, casual and comp. Focusing on only one aspect of play more than the other is always going to cause major issues regardless of the skill level of play they are focusing on.
The OWL is an echochamber of gameplay information, I know people think they should be the ultimate arbiters of balance but that kind of thinking perpetuates the very apparent turmoil in the overall community.
OWL probably gives them significant profits and they need to focus on what makes eyeballs stay on the screen, that doesn’t necessarily make the decisions right it just means the decisions are profitable.
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Yeah I totally agree with that - that’s where this bit comes in.
So I’m fully onboard with what they said, that is the only accurate take on what we should be following on with. They generate a sentiment which is important to develop around (not balance around) because it directly affects the enjoyment of most of the games inhabitants. Use the sentiment, but do not balance around it is basically how I read that.
Yeah that’s kinda where I’m at, coke was the casual balancing they dove into in development, but it backfired, so battery acid bad, coke also not good - we’ve been in freefall balancing away from it and the concepts responsible for a lot of the games worst elements for casual players are being reworked out of the game pretty much, almost none of these heroes developed along these lines have stayed as they were originally. That’s the coke, I suggest whats good for you but not immediately going to give you the satisfaction of bubbling away on your tongue, but makes you overall healthier because we let the nature of players aptitude define the state of the game - natural sugars if you will, it’s bloody sweet when you get a taste for its effects. The coke is mixing up the aptitude with baseline GV - and this exacts wildly inconsistent gameplay no matter your own level until you basically get out of there, if your leap in skill is massive you can pull it up on your own, if your leap in skill is above, but not by much ( the coke fed casuals ) you will not see your input matter on what basically feels like a coinflip because of the nature of the casual gamer, they care less, and will tank your experience for you.
Truuuuuuuue.
That’s true to an extent, it is mostly perception that X heroes are trash, but the meta is what causes the perceptions to build because within that gamestate, they are often locked out of garnering proper value against X team comp. The meta is more perception in ladder, but at OWL level, the meta is deeply tried and tested - their meta is generally the most effective tactic available - but then we flip around to what’s good or bad, this is where the perception kicks back up, and then the perception of the meta heroes being too strong because of outside conditions that put them in a heavily needed position - example, burst damage is forcing shield gameplay no matter how weak they get - but the burst heroes responsible for forcing shield play aren’t always around, like widow or hanzo for example. The meta is usually the response to whats good if you look at everything with our very capable hindsight.
My stance is balance on note of OWL - FOR THE LADDER - but top down. The words are specific so that the equation is correct. Don’t balance ladder FOR OWL, balance with OWL pointing out problem outliers that could be used on ladder, balance the game PRIMARILY FOR LADDER, but the balance must exist top down, as that is the only path the growth - the balancing for casuals is the coke, and the coke is stifiling the growth of casual players and discouraging them, while actively working against the mindsets of the players themselves, casuals are there to play, not compete, and when met with the choice of do what they want vs do whats good for everyone but it’s not what I enjoy, they pick the former, and the casual tools are turning that into relentless feeding and most are not willing to swap, and to ask them that is the greatest offense ever for some reason - but overall, this is what happens when you give them what they want rather than what they need to get what they ACTUALLY want but don’t understand what they think that they want is actually what they despise about the game, leading to all the things consistently complained about since overwatches inception.
You’re right, it won’t. I mean just look at what OWL does to the devs, they made release brig man trust me I get it I am with you and I hate that the ladder is being shaken violently to spam change a meta because of OWL engagement, and that IS what happened, the OWL wasn’t being balanced around, they just wanted to see meaningful reflected change because the viewers were tired of watching almost indistinguishable games from eachother. But I’d hardly say this game suffers of OWL balancing, it suffers from PANIK I HAFF TO CHANGE THE WHOLE META IN A SINGLE PATCH, GET THE BOX OF SLEDGEHAMMERS AND JUST START TOSSING THEM AT EVERYONE INVOLVED - this completely misses the mark and we spend 6+ months dealing with whatever that was “this years OWL panik.”
Outside of those poor OWL based changes, it’s not entirely balanced around poorly, and has been a working solution - so long as you ignore the BS that happens every year when they panik about viewer counts near the end of the season and shake it up for stage 3-4.
We are almost completely in agreement. But merit is the only way MMR and SR systems can function as intended, and the casual tools force counters that casuals aren’t willing to do. Jeff once said we need to develop the game around the habits of players. That was a moment of faith restored in Jeff Kaplans outward view for overwatches future development.
I hope you like this FRUITY beverage 
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Hmmmpf. It’s not tea but I accept it 
. …
…
…
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Why would they contradict themselves like that then?
i dont believe it because Super Said it, i belive it because thats what i see based on their balance decisions.
it will be especially true if this patch goes through completly unchanged.
There is also the whole unadressed heroes situation, What is possibly stopping them from fixing Sombra, Symmetra, bastion, (torb?) junk, etc etc when they were able to buff genji?
i simply dont get whats their excuse anymore other than “well they are just not fun to watch in OWL” OR “they are simply not fun to play against”
Want to make OWL fun to watch? add hero bans again to it, but player chosen, now players can do a decision of switching metas if they want to.
I don’t think this is a fair analysis. We haven’t been clamouring for changes to Orisa and Brig at all. At most levels of play we’ve been begging for Ana/Rein/Zarya changes because the meta is hardlocked on them for casual players.
This patch isn’t evidence of Blizzard listening to the community. People have been complaining TTK is too low, so they buffed Hog’s TTK. People have been asking for more survivability for Symmetra, so they gave her more damage. People have been asking for Rein/Ana nerfs, so they nerfed their competetition to cement these two into the meta.
This is why we’re frustrated. If they aren’t going to make changes to Rein/Ana/Zarya and they aren’t going to stop the whole damage creep thing, at least tell us they’ve tried it and it failed, or at least give us more info about it. They talk and talk and talk, but they don’t really engage in dialogue.
Sombra is a special case - I’d chalk that up to poor design because it actively avoided the mark of balancing around the habits of players. They tried to make a TOTALLY TEAMWORK RELIANT HERO in a game where most players are going deathmatch on ladder. At GM you get the odd sombra who will kick you in the nuts and wedgie you so hard they will blind you with your own poopstains. But for everyone else outside of the braincase sombra players whose brains should be protected relics, this hero is bad to have on your team and triggering as hell to play against as a tank player as you kinda have to hope your teams got you covered, and as i said, requires teamwork, forces teamwork, that goes down so well with so many people.
Maybe there is a lesson to be learned in not making heroes who require those two lines of teamwork, with a community playing deathmatch in game up to GM. I just chalk it up to poor design, and all she has been to me personally is suffering (I’m a tank main so you probably get what I mean) - and I see the same sentiment from everyone else, with or against. The OWL might make a good call to rework that hero and drop the things that make her a constant source of contention to the games balance.
Input/Output is a pressing concern for the lower skill brackets but not so much at the top ranks, because input is omnipresent at GM, and the casual tools get sat on with the vast ability increase to play around them on different heroes. The games star rating system really never struck me as anything really, it’s inaccurate, and doesn’t explain the difficulty changes per rank and likely never could - just obsolete at that point, but they don’t matter all too much being there either.
True - even as a non console player, I was excited when they changed the auto turret damage ratings specifically to deal with console players not being able to snap their view model around aggressively and accurately given the controls - and then that just ceased to exist so yeah SAME. Console is a vastly different game at the high ranks, and low ranks don’t look too dissimilar from it’s pacing, just the level of mistakes increases as you go down since aim assist keeps them performing relatively ok - as you can see the accuracy on consoles goes up above the average for PC players, but the PC players are taking more shots thanks to the thing I mentioned before, the snappy aggressive view model control changes the game completely, and how hard and fast it’s coming at you, and how much more you need to fit into a small timeframe - as you can probably imagine, this changes what’s actually good because the amount of time for interactions is different in a teamfight - the games balance should - but does not reflect this.
Yep I covered that before I read it, seems were on the same page c:
that’s a fair assumption I think, just lots of backpedaling on changes made to help casuals being what impedes casual play would be my take on whats been wrong with the game functionally, because upon realizing it backfired, it was already released, and they want to keep the heroes the way we love them, making them reticent to go forward with changes so as to not annoy the players who love them, and there is love for EACH AND EVERY HERO FROM SOMEONE.
While they tackle the ethical question - I’m just gunna say “Pretty good game overall still” c:
You keep going on like that and you’re gunna get some favoritism 
“food for the soul” is also important.
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I don’t like chocolate.
I agree . I’m a salty ho because this is where I be salty. Do I play other games more? Sure. But that doesn’t mean this one is bad.
It’s just that the time waiting while they decide what direction to go in just isn’t worth waiting around. And that’s my biggest criticism and is like … the main reason I came to the forums.
The philosophy and ethical questions…cuz I’m a pretentious jerk like that about video games lmao
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I don’t believe that they only balance for OWL. I believe they sometimes balance for OWL, and that’s not a problem. I believe they sometimes balance for ladder, and that’s not a problem.
I know in my heart that they sometimes balance for OWL knowingly at the expense of everyone else. That is a problem.
Neither do I - I thought it was a safe bet considering how many people revere the stuff ;-;
C: Same - I get heated so quickly when people make me qualify my statements as unbiased >.< And that’s because I just love the game, when I say it’s pretty good, I mean I’m closing in on 4000 levels on my main acc, I’m beyond addicted and overwatch was MY FIRST PC FPS. I love this game for what it can be and often still gets to be, and how clean the engine is, and how the TTK is actually just right and satisfying, because of the consistent pressure to aim and continue to track or flick accurately as opposed to the instant look and kill model that most previous popular fps games adopted, which when overwatch became popular - THE ENTIRE FPS PLAYERBASE SKILLED UP and I think that is in large part of the trend Overwatch set by becoming popular as it’s near identical TTK is popping up in other titles like apex legends for example - this forced an era of upskill and overwatch will hold a place of high regard forever in my heart for what it did to transform the landscape of FPS games skill aptitude - that is how overwatch feels to me, and it’s still amazing and holds that same value that made me fall in love with it and made me WANT TO GET GOOD. I haven’t been hit with a passion like that since I first picked up my guitar 15 years ago. A game that is developed perfectly if you choose to skill up, while the road might be bumpy and uncomfortable at times this game (apart from pre shield changes double shield) really hones in on giving you the tools and precision requirements to sink your teeth into the ultimate goal of understanding how to better yourself mechanically, and mentally, and for me it came with the added tidbit of learning how important a positive mental attitude is - I honestly can’t play without it, I change from GM to plat instantly when I let myself get negative, and that happens with other people too, so maintaining the morale of the team, another important skill I didn’t know I needed but it’s done me good! All things to praise and thank overwatch for, even if we alot of the time only talk about the crap aspects, simply because we feel it’s important to fix whats wrong instead of thanking it’s presence to begin with, and that creates the perception we hate the game, when it’s love that brings us to criticize aspects.
I think it’s worth it, but I understand I’m not like the other 99% of people, hell, probably still weird to the remaining one percent. I stick around for gems to be unearthed when they show promise, and overwatch was the best thing ever to me.
I like to ask the questions too, but you’ll find it only extends to the things I love, the rest i’m introverted and silent about. You could say I have spoken more through these forums than I have to anyone in my lifetime. And it’s important to remember that, so I don’t get bitter when all I wanna do is cuddle it
Cheers Overwatch
I guess I just officially simped for overwatch. It’s just too good.
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