Is that supposed to make any sense? What even is the point of DPS heroes when supports + tanks can can go on killing sprees on their own and crush DPS heroes while healing themselves and easily surviving making mistakes?
Is there any chance DPS heroes can be given some actual strengths of their own, or is the goal to keep them the weakest and least impactful role by a mile?
The only DPS in the game who was a genuine damage threat and actually lived up to it’s role was Bastion in turret form, but the devs knew it was unacceptable for a DPS hero to have the best DPS and so they nerfed turret form.
Everyone is better at dueling than DPS nowadays. Tanks consistently do more damage, and now even the meta supports in Illari, Kiriko, Ana, and Bap have insane damage potentials and dueling.
You’re completely right if you’re bad at the game and refuse to get better but at the same time, it’s foolish to ask the game to accommodate your unwillingness to improve.
Which supports are you consistently losing duels to?
Is it designed to not instantly fold to the damage character you’re playing?
Why aren’t you utilizing the superior character pool and/or your team in the team game to adapt if you aren’t good enough to duel the support player instead of seemingly continuously seeking out a 1v1 in a team game, against a better player?
Dps sure have best ultimates with team wipes, oh wait supports can just suzu, immortality field or deny high healing comp… oh wait i forgot you need support help to get team wipe like nano window damage boost etc
its fine in masters and bellow somehow dps still work
Did you mean to say tanks? I think you made a typo, because it’s TANKS who have the strongest ultimates for clearing out whole teams. Shatter, grav, nuke, etc are far more lethal than any DPS ultimate.
This game is not about dueling, it’s a team game. Have you considered playing the team game and not just running off inting into the backline trying to duel supports?
I’m telling you as a gm1 dps player that bap kiriko iliari and sometimes brig are better duellists than most of the dps heroes in a 1v1.
It’s not a skill issue lol.
If I’m in the 1v1 duel mode in arcade and I see bap, soldier and orisa I’m instantly picking bap.
Dps generally have more damage options, better mobility, or higher damage per second or mag. Otherwise, they have consistency. I mean, how much damage is Ana going to do compared to Ashe if they both fire a whole mag and use all their abilities against a target in range for maximum body shot damage?
Usually when a support wins, it’s because of their mobility, generally smaller/ thinner hit boxes, self heals, or CC. Most if not every dps can out damage the heals. If Reaper loses to Moira, either he’s a bad shot, or she was far enough away that he couldn’t compete.
Yeah, lemme just suzu and negate this Blade/Tac visor/Torb puddles/Railgun/Echo copy/multiple artillery strikes/B.o.B/Giant wall duuuuude, it’s gonna be so epic, that fraction of a second is lasting for an eternity dude, what an dumb damage player thinking their multiple-second long ult can ignore my fraction of a second suzu or that IF can be destroyed duude.
Damage players need to get with the program and learn suzu lasts way longer than all their ults and they are required to wait out it’s cooldown before anybody uses another ult that it can also outlast/negate.
They objectively haven’t. What you’ve seen is supports are being designed to have a chance at surviving a duel until they get help, damage players still have more tools and better tools to dish out superior damage in duels and usually on much shorter cooldowns if any.
Again, what damage player do you think has the disadvantage against which support in a duel and also, why aren’t you switching/playing with your team more if the support player is better than you?
You are not entitled to 1v1s, you are not entitled to killing supports just because you got into their backline or used your ult, no duel is fair because this team game isn’t balanced around 1v1s.
And I’m telling you, you should probably stop trying to use this in arguments because your takes are terrible and it’s clear you don’t understand the game or know what you’re talking about.
You bragging about your rank is an insult to everyone else in the rank, a poor reflection of the state of comp, and a showcase of a prime example of someone getting carried/boosted by various people and factors (like playing characters who can rely on mechanical aim much more than others) while lacking much knowledge at all about the game yet having a (much like their rank) inflated ego.
DPS have an easy time pressuring supports which is the main point of a DPS engaging them. Also, it’s absurd to think that just because you play a DPS hero, you should automatically always beat a support. While you are dueling a support, they are not healing their team and they are wasting their precious cooldowns. That’s how you win team fights, whether you get an elim or not.
Supports are stronger heroes than DPS, because in Overwatch (and essentially all other games with roles like this) people naturally gravitate towards the DPS role much more than the support role. This means that the support role needs to be stronger in order to have enough people that actually want to play it. I don’t think I’ve ever played a game with roles like this where the damage role isn’t weaker than the support role. It’s just how it has to be balanced to make sure you actually get people on the less naturally desired roles.
As to Overwatch specifically, the idea that a support can out-duel a DPS is also kind of missing some really major points. If a support has all their cooldowns up and uses them all on themselves, can they win duels against DPS? In many cases yes (though obviously this depends on which support hero we’re talking about—obviously not true about Mercy, for instance). But the cooldowns in question for the support are typically much longer cooldowns than those for the DPS. And they’re usually actually substantially stronger when used on others. So a DPS dueling a support and baiting out those cooldowns and then leaving the duel and getting their cooldowns back much quicker is actually genuinely potentially fight winning for their team. For instance, people complain about Bap’s many health bars, but if you bait Bap into using immortality and regen burst on a duel, then he won’t have those abilities to use on teammates (while you will get your cooldowns back much faster) and so you can just disengage from the duel and your team has a high chance to win the fight. This sort of thing is widely understood in pro play, where people understand that Overwatch is a resource game, where there’s immense value to baiting out strong resources and engaging when you have the resource advantage. It’s just that with people that have lower levels of understanding or just a more selfish mindset, they don’t understand or appreciate that you can be carrying the fight by forcing out strong resources.
It’s also worth noting that Overwatch is not really a game of duels. It’s a team game, where tons of engagements involve multiple players. In that context, what’s most important is burst potential, because you need to be able to kill quickly to damage through the other team’s resources (healing, damage mitigation, mobility, etc.) or to kill during the brief openings where the other team has few resources. Support heroes are not even remotely as well-equipped to do that as DPS heroes are. So, DPS heroes very obviously contribute much more to the killing potential of the team, even if some of the supports are hard to duel individually.
FWIW, Dragonblade isn’t very strong, but the comparison isn’t really apt. Kiriko’s headshots are a skill shot, and single target. Dragonblade is a cleave and will do its damage equally across all nearby targets.
A better comparison to Dragonblade would be with Reinhardt’s primary.
Unless the healer is Mercy, most of them will run out of ammo against Moira. Remember Moira’s RMB is infinite, and will continue to drain forever.
Tank ultimates tend to be the most impactful, but rarely do they kill. I can knock a whole team down with Earthshatter and follow up with Firestrike and Charge, but that’s not likely to kill the entire team, but it will setup a team kill from follow-ups by the rest of your team.
Likewise, Earthshatter will shutdown an potential teamwipe against a Deadeye, or Deathblossom. That’s pretty impactful; probably won’t kill the target, but it’ll shut down the ultimate and leave them open for a sweep.
Likewise, Minefield isn’t likely to kill anyone, but if I set up a Blizzard or Gravity Surge (hey two Tanks!) beforehand, could guarantee a few kills if not outright team kill.
Only if a I get Support who will follow and Support me. But even as a Tank like Junker Queen or Roadhog, I’m outhealing my Supports while they deep-dive into the enemy back line and try assassinating the enemy Ashe.
Supports don’t have high damage, they have reliable damage.
Put it another way, I won’t hit as hard as Soldier, but I’ll be able to aim much better as Moira than I would as Soldier.
And the same applies with other heroes. Genji’s shuriken certainly can hit hard, but they’re much harder to land than Lucio’s less damaging primary fire.
This little discovery has been true since year one of Overwatch. I made this discovery as far back as beta, but it did take until three new heroes showed up to really confirm it.
Not really to most of those. High-end single target damage, yes, but that’s largely geared towards Tank targets.
Damage-role heroes having more damage options? Not really. Tracer has fewer damaging options than Moira, Lucio, or Brigitte, for example. Tracer also has fewer options than Tanks like Reinhardt who has Firestrike, Charge, and Earthshatter ontop of his primary.
Mobility? Debatable. Taking Tracer again, for example. She gets 3 blinks putting around 20 to 22 meters on a 9 second cooldown for all three charges. Winston gets 20-22 meters off a single 6-second cooldown, and D.va gets about 20 meters off a 4 second cooldown. Both also do damage. Moira’s gets Fade (a cleanse and movement) and gets about 15 meters on 6 seconds, and can push 20-ish meters with her new Fade Jump ability.
Burst-damage? That’s one element that Damage-role heroes tend to have all their own. Most Supports don’t have a burst-option. A few tanks do, notably Roadhog.
High ammo per clip? Not really. It’s less about how much ammo in each reload and more about how long it takes to before they empty their clip. Most Damage-role heroes average around 3 to 5 or 6 seconds. Most Supports are 8 seconds or more.
Here’s the math:
Ana:
1 shot per .6 seconds, 15 ammo; 9 seconds to deplete.
70 damage per shot.
60 damage per target on Biotic Grenade
1050 per clip
Ashe
1 shot per .65 seconds, 12 ammo; 8 seconds to deplete.
75 damage per shot
Up to 50 damage explosion of dynamite; 100 damage burn over 5 seconds
900 damage per clip
So, Ana will last slightly longer on damage, and do more damage per clip. Ashe will do more damage on dynamite, though it’ll depend on how many targets are hit, and whether or not the burn is recovered from.
In terms of reliable shots, Ana’s average accuracy is 56% and Ashe’s 40%. Ana tends to have a larger hitbox for her hitscanned shots, so this make sense. Dynamite is the real singer here, and so is BOB.
Out-damaging a target receiving healing usually requires superior accuracy and is in fact a 1v2 situation. Mercy plus Soldier vs. Reaper the odds are in favor of Soldier winning that fight, but Reaper can pull through.
Reaper vs. Moira is usually in Reaper’s favor, but both can generally force a stalemate if either gets in critical health. Moira and try and burn a cooldown for Biotic Orb healing, but it probably won’t be enough to outpace Reaper’s damage.
Generally, true.
But if the point was just engaging and distracting them, just about anyone else can do that, including another Support.
Has little to do with anything.
Still, given the background of the development team for Overwatch and what they tried to replicate here, it’s not a big surprise that Overwatch became so defensively minded. Most MMORPGs like WoW are defensively-minded, not offensively.
No, not really. Although the intention by Blizzard was to balance based on popularity, this ended up having a negative impact overall when the metagame eventually reached GOATS.
This has generally never been the case in any game, modern or in the past four decades. Not by intention.
Not really. Only in more recent Supports - those that were began development after the Defense-role and Offense-role were collapsed into the Damage-role. Most Supports currently have cooldowns relatively similar, or even shorter than the Damage-role.
Case to point. Moira’s Biotic Orb is on a shorter cooldown than Torbjorn’s Turret or Overload. And likewise, Illari’s Pylon is 6 seconds compared to 10 seconds for Symmetra’s Teleporter or Torbjorn’s turret.
And likewise, Soundwave is shorter than Genji’s Swiftstrike.
Not every Damage-role hero can disengage from Baptiste. Cassidy certainly can’t do this.
Burst damage is often controlled by the enemy targets. You Helix Rocket, I barrier, Defense Matrix, Protection Suzu, Projected Barrier, Fade, Swiftstep and so on and so forth. For every attempt at bursting a target, there’s an equal chance of shutting down or denying that burst.
Think of it this way. There are three heroes on every team dedicated to defense or defending against lethal damage. There’s only really two that are dedicated to doing damage, and those two are the most impacted by the defenses engaged by the other three.