It seams a lot fun to me. I saw some videos where they tried to “mathematically” show that it’s an unfair mode, but I just don’t get it. Winners get advantages, isn’t that like normal? You want to play worse and win? Why should the better team not have an advantage? And people say the first teamfight is very important, like, hello? What? Aren’t all modes like that? Can someone explain me, with real arguments, why is it a bad mod?
I can understand if you say it’s not fun, cuz it’s personal, but people are going out of their ways to explain that it’s unfair or bad, and I still didn’t hear even 1 fair argument that proves it. It’s all incompetent ranting. If you have good arguments, please, enlighten me.
Not really
On payload, hybrid, 2cp there’s always multiple rounds where both teams have an equal shot as getting as far as they can
On koth if you retake the point from the enemy you immediately start your own percentage
On push tho if you win the first fight you’re immediately covering quite some ground with the bot and if the enemy retakes it after they still have to cover your ground again first before making progress themselves
This allows for the team that won the first and then lost the 2nd battle to simply be back quickly without the team in possession of the robot to have made any real progress
It’s like for example if in koth you had to deplete the enemy’s percentage before building any up yourself
Doesn’t matter if it would deplete fast or not its the mode still handicapping you from making progress for a while despite “winning” and also giving the team that first won a huge advantage
And I also despise its spawns and how deathmatchy it feels
I don’t have this with any other modes but push feels like a flank fest with never any real properly established chokes or front lines
It’s like if in KOTH, one team gets to 99%. Then your team takes the point, and instead if your score going up, you first have to undo the enemy’s score.
The mode is strictly better than 2CP but oddly enough has some of the same problems in that an early snowball can put the game out of each even if you have a balanced game. Basically whoever wins the first fight likely wins the second (because of the nature of OW) and that often gets you the checkpoint in ranked games. Once you have the checkpoint and the ult economy evens out you end up in a back and forth of trading fights with the one side not able to make any real progress because you basically keep alternating fight wins and you really need to win 3 in a row to even it up which is often tricky again due to the nature of Overwatch.
Now this is less annoying than 2CP in that if you have that happen in 2CP you have a 5 minute timebank and the game is basically over but it is still a problem in Push. That and the spawns are bad which is an unfortunate requirement of the mode but if your mode requires something to be unfun to function that is a core problem.
In a game mode that has two teams fighting over the same objective, would it be reasonable to assume that the team that controlled that objective longer should win? Because if you accept that premise, then Push has an issue.
Consider a KotH map. Team A holds it for 96 seconds, while Team B holds it for 110 seconds. Who wins? Well obviously, it’s Team B. They held the point longer, so they get the victory.
Now consider a Push map. Team A controlled the robot for 96 seconds, and Team B controlled it for 110 seconds. Who wins? If you said Team B you’d be right… assuming that Team A didn’t get those 96 seconds first. Because if Team A took the lead and controlled the robot for 96 seconds before Team B managed to gain control, even though they held the point for longer it would take so much extra time to run back before they could even start making progress that the extra 14 seconds they held the objective wouldn’t be enough to get them a win.
In Push, the victory doesn’t just go to who had control over the objective for longer, which is unlike any other game mode (KotH for QP, and additionally Assault, Hybrid, and Payload if you’re doing Competitive.) It’s the only game mode that has to take into account who got the early advantage. It lets teams that played the objective worse win based solely on the fact that their control time happened earlier in the round than their opponents.
I think the complaints about push are way overblown. Long respawn times and matches where they get to 90% in the first 2 minutes and you’re just stuck playing a match that is near unwinnable even if your team starts doing way better than theirs are problems, but other than that it’s fine.
Say you win the first fight and capture the robot. You just won a dead even fight. When the enemies respawn, you are now closer to their spawn room and at a part of the map that favors them. This is an easier fight for the enemies, so even if they win it, the score shouldn’t be dead even afterwards
Yeap. If we win the first fight, we’re usually winning the match. That’s how it goes. A significant amount of games (not most) probably go a lot like this: 8TXRZ1
I think the general consensus amongst players who dislike this mode is that the first team fight has significantly more importance than following fights, and (unless momentum swings) subsequent fights have less and less meaning.
In escort missions (the most-similar mode), you may have an advantage/disadvantage after winning a fight, but there is a bifurcation of what “progress” means for each team; you either progress towards the objective (attack) or you deny progress (defense).
In Push the only objective is to progress towards the objective, and you can win multiple team fights while making zero active progress. The further your team has fallen behind, the less likely it is that winning a team fight will “matter”. Whereas, if you were on defense in Escort , denial of enemy progress is progress from your team’s perspective.
Essentially, Push is more “one-sided” because the change in progression/win condition vs. Escort; both team’s have the same objective, and one team getting a head-start is a big advantage. Additionally, the incentive to try and aggressively turn the tide in your team’s favor (because being ahead of the enemy team is such an advantage) makes a lot of players feel this Push has more of a “deathmatch” or “free-for-all” feel.
I’m trying to be agnostic - that’s just my read on the situation.
It is basically Payload with extra steps. Your team wins the initial encounter, then the enemy has to undo all that progress in a sense to start theirs, but by the time they get the robot to the objective, your team is on them in seconds because of moving spawn points.
Imagine if you will, in Checkpoint, if you had to cap it from the enemy, then you had to undo their progress before you start yours? You need 199% AFTER waiting to cap, and if they get it back, they get back where they left off sooner than your team can regroup.
Not quite right on koth with the winning team being who held it longest
It just matters who holds it when the percent hits 100. Team A can have it held down in overtime for 10 minutes, but team B caps it and just wins anyways despite holding it for like a minute total.
It all depends on which team is better at closing out teamfights, same as every other mode.
You take it as one team is better, other is worse and that is a constant. Reality is more fun, actually. One team can be better at the start, but fail later, other team can fail at the start but then gather up and destroy another. It constantly happens in all the other modes: hybrid, escort, koth.
Push is the only mode that actively suppresses ability to turn the round. The team that lost at the start has to then do a lot more to compensate for it than in any other mode.
This combines with a veeeeery long timer. It is quite often in push when you get robot half way across the map, close to enemy spawn abd then fight over it for the rest of the match, which is 5-7 minutes more of time. And both teams know battle is pretty much decided.
2CP maps are better in that regard, as there snowballing almost always ends match quickly and to win you have to capture both objectives. So, defending team has hope to win to the last moment, attacking team can’t win with halfway done objective.
Yeah I feel like maybe the robot should go a bit faster towards the losing block. Make the robot give a slight speed boost if necessary for players to keep up. This would at least help somewhat with the lopsidedness, maybe it could be “enough.”
Well for the KotH example it essentially considers the teams going to time. However for just a flat win, the winning team only needs to hold it for 120 seconds (with the last bit being uncontested control.) In Push you have to hold the robot for I think 128ish seconds? But that’s only if you hold it the whole time. If the other team has control for 127 seconds and then you get control, you can’t win by controlling it for 128 seconds anymore. Now you have to control it for 153 seconds, with 26 seconds just added to how long you have to hold the robot in order to win. In KotH if the enemy team holds the point for 119 seconds, you still only need 120 to win. The amount you need to get a victory by objective as opposed to victory by time decision doesn’t change for KotH. But it does in push.
So if it’s a decision by time out, Push isn’t determined by who held the objective the longest, unlike other game modes. And if you’re going for a victory, the amount of time you have to hold the objective now changes depending on whether you held the objective first or second, also unlike any other game mode.
And this last part might be more anecdotal, but isn’t Push known for having one team win and push pretty far, then the other team managing to close out something like 3 team fights in a row before losing the 4th one and then losing the whole match?
I don’t think the meager time increase you need to push back is that big a deal, especially since a team fight likely won’t happen again in full force until you’re back at the starting point for the bot or well past it depending on where it’s walking back from.
As for the team closing out fights and losing, how did they manage to get to the point where they have to close so many fights in the first place? By losing fights.
The better team wins, that’s just how it goes. The losing team has to work slightly harder to flip it back, but if they flip it then the opposing team has to do the same.
The time increase can be more than meager. At max I think it can be around 26-27 seconds, which is an appreciable amount of time. That’s over 20% of a KotH control point or total time needed to push the Push robot from mid to the end. Imagine if the enemy team had a control point in KotH for 50%, and when you gained control of it you had to wait 13 seconds before you started getting any credit?
The problem is that the better team doesn’t always win in Push. If one team can control the objective longer in a game mode about controlling the objective but they still lose, it feels like an issue with the game mode.
