What really was wrong with mass Resurrect?

MrWhite-11456 · September 18, 2018, 1:06am

Dying also undoes your efforts if your efforts don’t amount to elims.

HongKongNo1-3302 · September 18, 2018, 1:06am

It doesnt say anywhere Hitscan counters Pharah either. Overwatch is a buggy game and under fix. What is right or wrong is hard to decide maybe. But we always need a sheriff in the last

Dysvalence-1915 · September 18, 2018, 1:08am

The best way to deal with that is to strike preemptively. Making it so that the enemy has to choose between holding their ult forever and being forced to use it prematurely eliminates the need for the economic effects of mass rez.

And so the entire fight comes down to the tiny window right before the rez. People aren’t aimbots, and accuracy tops out at round ~55%. Combined with a tiny window for shots and luck factors in more than it should and the entire fight shouldn’t be decided by it.

How is having a 100 % chance of losing the fight relevant to scenarios where I said that you have a reasonable chance of winning?

You don’t have any tempo when most of your team is dead. For that you need mass rez. Tempo rez is doing it early so you never get there in the first place.

xelaker-1210 · September 18, 2018, 1:09am

No, mercy can just rez me. See how that is counterproductive to the point of being better then the enemy?

ƑaylenSøl-1922 · September 18, 2018, 1:15am

That’s not an argument.

The SR system is the same for Bronze-Plat. Only 7% of the player-base gets to play with the “fixed” SR system.

It is an in-game mechanic that has a maximum potential to be used just like an ability does. Arguing semantics is silly and intentionally ignoring the points being proposed.

Semantics. As stated above. Ultimates are no-different in that players will try to maximize their potential gain out of them just like they will on abilities.

Except they do. Often. It’s why it was such a common occurance to see Mercy doing 4-5 Man rez play of the games after hiding during that period.

Team got wiped by Blade/Blossom/Grav/Visor/etc. and Mercy, who wasn’t there for the fight undid the event. The game mechanic rewarded the player for not participating in the fight and being alive to undo the lost “team” fight.

In many cases, yes. They would. Grav, Nano, Blade was a common combination during that time. That’s half the teams Ults. And unless the team was pushing in with all 6 Ults up they’d likely have none left or perhaps one left.

In-game mechanics, as I stated above, have a maximum potential value if used correctly. Lucio’s boop encourages him to seek out Enviromental kills due to the way it is designed. It can be used for spacing/peeling, but due to the high value of securing a kill on a Full-HP target the in-game mechanic encourages the player to seek out the high reward with low risk.

Yes, it’s not an Ultimate. But it is a in-game mechanic and thus is still going to be utilized in a, “How can I get the most out of this?” fashion from players.

No, you can use your own words.

Be an adult and formulate your own argument. You’ve failed to do anythng other than state, “No” and “I disagree” thus far without any proper attempt to provide an actual discussion.

You can post points from a thread, but I am not going to entertain you posting an entire new thread derailing the conversation at hand in a condescending manner.

InTheDesert-1983 · September 18, 2018, 1:25am

I think one of the biggest problems with mass rez is that it didn’t like do anything for your team during the fight, it just hit the reset button on the team fight and it either left your team at a disadvantage or the enemy team at a disadvantage. Every other ult in the game contributes to the team fight instead of just resetting it. It wasn’t a fun play style for mercy in my opinion

Needles-11351 · September 18, 2018, 1:29am

Dont know about you but I personally enjoy being genji bladed and junk rat tired.

TheMelon-11506 · September 18, 2018, 1:30am

I feel like I should kinkshame…I’m kinkshaming

Arceus-2238 · September 18, 2018, 1:49am

Isn’t this a strawman fallacy?

https://i.imgur.com/tyTc1Nl.jpg

It comes down to, “why didn’t I use my ultimate to kill Mercy, the one that has the potential to undo kills”. Competent players won’t be sayin this thought.

Because you don’t have a reasonable chance of winning by using an ultimate to stall.

This is wrong. As long as one teammate is alive, continuing the fight, your res counts as a tempo res.

Eh… no? There’s no specific timeframe for you to tempo res. It is a tempo res as long as it is done to continue the tempo of a fight.

I present my argument afterwards.

No, there were 2 issues with the SR system. One exclusive to Mercy and the performance SR one.

I don’t intend on reading a comparison between an ultimate and a cooldown ability.

Okay? Having more players ressed doesn’t maximise the potential gain out of your res though.

Then ask yourself, is that you fault or the Mercy’s? Better yet, ask yourself, why am I so incompetent, I can’t fight a 6v5 without having to use all my team’s ultimates.

Yeah, no. I’m not buying that players get baited into using all their ultimates in a 6v5. That’s ridiculous.

Hiding counters itself. All you did was cherrypick examples of enemy team incompetence. If the enemy team is bad, ofc the strategy will work. Any bad strategy would work against a bad team.

Then it’s your fault you lost to such a bad strategy. Why get angry at the Mercy? Maybe, idk? Git gud.

You Are Not Going To Get Maximum Value Out Mass Resurrect By Hiding.

All of what you said is pointless since hiding will not assure maximum value from mass Resurrect.

This is coming from the same person saying that hiding will ensure maximum value out of mass Resurrect. Yeah, don’t expect too much from me. All you’ve done is given examples of the enemy team playing bad then going, “”Hide n Res” waS suCCesSfuL anD That’S BAd!!”. With this logic, I can just go around and say DPSing as Mercy is successful because the enemy team can’t aim and that’s bad because Mercy is supposed to be a support. REWorK heR!!!

Selauriel-1801 · September 18, 2018, 2:02am

To be fair when Genji or Junkrat are ulting you can do something to stop it. When Mercy pulled off a Mass Resurrect, that was it. There’s was no stopping it.

Arceus-2238 · September 18, 2018, 2:03am

And Zenyatta’s ultimate?

Selauriel-1801 · September 18, 2018, 2:04am

Ana grenade, boops, one shot abilities…

Arceus-2238 · September 18, 2018, 2:05am

Swap Mercy with Zen and Mass Resurrect with Transcendance.

When Zen pulled off a Transcendance, that was it. There was no stopping it.

Both don’t have any cast times meaning both are by your logic, not counterable. You can only deal with the ultimate.

HongKongNo1-3302 · September 18, 2018, 2:16am

strawman fallacy?
What is so sophist about this?

you: mass res has no rule to be powerful or not. So it can be powerful.
me:overwatch is not based on having or not having rules they just made them like the existing counters. Which are not made by any rules either. So mass res power isnt a absolute thing. It is rather over powered so devs wanted to nerf it.

From what I see you are a sophist actually. Making jokes out of words

Desola-21715 · September 18, 2018, 2:16am

What really was wrong with mass Resurrect?

The fact that Blizz came with sledgehammer buffs when the stats suggested she wasn’t really effective (Cause for the Invulnerability Buff), which removed Counterplay for the most part, unless you were fast enought to kill her before she could get it off… before that you could just kill her and then kill her healer-less team again with ease.

And yes… with the SR exploit fixed (Weirdly happened AFTER the rework) HIde and Rez would have mostly disappeared… sure there’d prolly still be the occasional one that just wants to steal the POTG but esspecially in ranked those would prolly be around… low silver i’d say.

Arceus-2238 · September 18, 2018, 2:17am

All ultimates are powerful?

Two things. It definitely wasn’t overpowered. We know that historically. Secondly, they didn’t nerf it at all LMFAO. They literally buffed it by putting it on a 30 second cooldown.

HongKongNo1-3302 · September 18, 2018, 2:19am

They wanted to nerf it. Wanting and success is different. And they actually succeeded now in some way.

Arceus-2238 · September 18, 2018, 2:21am

They didn’t want to nerf it. They’ve never said they were trying to nerf it. They put it on a 30 second cooldown which made it more powerful. Everything about the rework was OP. They didn’t rework her for balance reasons. They didn’t succeed with the nerf; it made her underpowered. Apparently success is a hero falling into an underpowered state after being nerfed.

HongKongNo1-3302 · September 18, 2018, 2:23am

It is a nerf cause they didnt made it mass res on 30 seconds cooldown. If it was that powerful she has to be picked now too.

Arceus-2238 · September 18, 2018, 2:25am

It is not a nerf… It is literally a buff. Someone already explains it and I’ve linked this already. Read it this time. Having Resurrect on a 30 second cooldown means you are going to have it more often. Buff already. It also means Mercy now has the best mid-fight utility amongst the supports. Another buff. I can go on forever.

Why I Have Yet to Not Despise Mercy's Current State

Resurrect is currently the reason Mercy is overpowered.

How so, you might ask, citing Mercy’s Resurrect statistics from before her rework and now, which are very close in numerical value?

Ignoring the process of elimination that would lead us to Resurrect in the first place, the difference lies within how Resurrect is used.

First is the availability of Resurrect now versus Mercy’s 1.x versions. Today, Resurrect runs on a consistent 30 second cooldown regardless as to the Mercy player’s performance. Killing a Mercy repeatedly does not impede upon their ability to return and use Resurrect; the only thing Mercy needs to have Resurrect available is time, and nothing in the game can deprive her of that. Mercy 1.x, on the other hand, needed to fill a resource meter in order to use Resurrect. Sure, that resource charged passively over time, but at an incredibly slow rate proportional to the requirement. If the player were to just wait for that resource to fill passively, they would be waiting 5 minutes and 25 seconds, which could be half the match by itself.

Anyway, because Mercy needed to fill a resource in order to use Resurrect on an acceptable basis, it was far easier to impede its availability by targeting or eliminating the Mercy. The time respawning and walking back to the fight would otherwise be time spent healing, shooting, or amplifying damage, depriving her of ultimate charge and therefore a use of resurrect.

Second is the optimal usage for the ability. Given Resurrect’s current availability and single-target mechanics, its optimal usage is obvious; it is best used to reverse the first pick in a fight, operating as a 1-up for an ally in every poke-at-choke scenario. This one-up functions as a buffer that disincentivizes an enemy engagement after the enemy gets a pick and therefore a numbers advantage, resulting in a continuation of the poke battle and a second chance for Mercy’s team to get the pick instead. As a result, Resurrect now stops the snowball before it begins, making it much more reliable when it comes to post-rez success. Preventing a snowball is much easier than trying to reverse a snowball after it has already gained velocity.

Mass-Resurrect, on the other hand, had variation in its optimal time of usage due to its inconsistent availability and its variation in numerical value. If it were to be used as a tempo-rez every time, it would simply be outmatched by the post-rework Resurrect because it cannot compete with 2.x’s cooldown rate. Thus, in order to maintain a good numerical value, a balance between tempo and mass-revives needed to be held. Finding that balance and by extension the optimal time and placement for Resurrect was difficult, making the ability harder to use overall.

As mentioned before, however, it is more difficult to reverse a snowball after it has gained velocity. Thus, Mercy 1.x’s Resurrect was far less reliable in post-rez success than Mercy’s 2.x’s Resurrect.

Resurrect is also used much earlier in the fight than it was before, reducing the window to prevent it from what used to be anywhere between the first pick and after the fifth kill to just the first pick. There is a smaller window to stop it.

As though the above advantages weren’t enough to push Resurrect over the edge, Resurrect also no longer occupies one of the team’s six ultimates. An ultimate is not lost upon its expense.

To recap:

Availability is consistent and unaffected by performance. It is easier to have resurrect ready to be used now than it was with 1.x.

Optimal usage is predefined, making it much easier to use Resurrect to its maximum capacity now than with 1.x.

Now prevents snowballs before they begin, which is much easier than stopping them after they are already in motion. Much more likely to end in success.

Is now more difficult to prevent through preliminary action, as it is used much earlier now.

No longer takes up an ultimate slot.

While the number of revived players every match may be nearly identical, the mechanics of the newer Resurrect makes it far more powerful in application.

Functionality:

When the rework first went live, there were already a lot of restrictions on Resurrect. It had the longest ability cooldown in the game by far, a 5 meter range, and a line-of-sight requirement.

And yet, Resurrect, and by extension Mercy, was absurdly overpowered.

Mercy’s ultimate, Valkyrie, provided additional uses of Resurrect; three extra uses, to be exact. In the first post-rework patch to Mercy, that number was dropped to 1. On top of this, Guardian Angel’s cooldown no longer reset upon Resurrect’s activation, making hit-and-run revives more dangerous.

The developers came back to see that once again, Resurrect, and by extension Mercy, was absurdly overpowered.

In response, the developers implemented a 1.75 second cast time and a 75% movement speed reduction to Resurrect. To top it off, Resurrect could now be interrupted not only by CC, but by knockbacks as well. If interrupted, Resurrect would begin its 30 second cooldown.

The developers returned to see that yet again, Resurrect, and by extension Mercy, was absurdly overpowered.

To fix this, the develop- Okay, hold up.

How the hell did the developers not figure out the issue by this time? Were they not paying attention to their own actions?

You took a mess of an ability with a metric [REDACTED]-ton of exceptions, and then you applied even more exceptions to that ability. How have you not seen the issue yet? Have you ever stopped to think about why you need to apply these exceptions, and what these exceptions resemble?

Fast forward to today, and there isn’t much left in Resurrect that can be reasonably nerfed given its current position… and yet, it is still game-breaking. Have you every stopped to think about why that might be?

Have you ever considered why those exceptions are exceptions?

What abilities in the game have a downtime comparable to a 30 second cooldown?

What abilities in the game have a cast time longer than one second, and movement penalties and ability disables beyond that?

Ultimates.

Resurrect is an ultimate. Look around at the other abilities in the game. The only ones with comparable downtimes, cast times, and cast penalties are ultimates.

Resurrect - 1.75 second cast time. 75% movement speed reduction, inability to use attacks and abilities. Ability activates after cast time ends.

Configuration: Tank - 1.5 second cast time. Inability to move, use attacks, or use abilities. Ability activates after cast time ends.

Rocket Barrage - 3 second cast time. Frozen movement (including vertical movement). Ability is active during cast time.

Earthshatter - .6 second cast time (+any time it takes to hit the ground). Ability activates after cast time ends.

Dragonblade - 1 second cast time. Inability to use attacks and abilities while casting. Ability activates after cast time ends.

Tactical Visor - 1.4 second cast time. Inability to use attacks and abilities while casting. Ability activates after cast time ends.

Sound Barrier - .8 second cast time (typically, can be reduced by moving onto a higher surface. Can also be increased by jumping beforehand or moving onto a lower surface). Inability to use attacks and abilities while casting. Ability activates after cast time ends.

When you need to add self-inflicted penalties onto an ability that match or exceed the penalties imposed by ultimates, that’s a pretty clear sign that said ability is an ultimate. Thus, it should not be a basic ability.

Even Jeff Kaplan has outright stated this issue:

“We tried to move Resurrection to a secondary ability, and the ability, right now, in current Overwatch, isn’t playing out as a secondary ability; it’s playing out like another ultimate ability”