YES PLEASE
we need this so bad. It would make tp bombing way better
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that would be neat, especially because torb has that with left click. perhaps itâd happen with the right click because itâd clean up better.
might have to nerf damage and buff range if this happens, tho.
I would like to recall that RoadHog is very vulnerable during Ult, and it also takes 5 seconds to break the wall.
It is much more profitable to push away enemies or use Ult after the wall has broken.
I donât think that at least one of the 100 hogs was breaking her wall.
If you coordinate with your team on it though, it can go down much more quickly than 5 seconds, and then the rest of Hogâs ult can still be effective.
i did indeed, stay healthy my friend
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I dunno, 3 Sentries is 120 damage per second, and 60 damage per second on a level 1 beam is 180 damage per second. For 2/3rds of the enemy team being caught understand, theyâll be dead in less than 2 seconds. That shield health wonât take too much damage and will likely regenerate before the next attacker comes in.
For a builder, Orbs can easily be substituted for more immediate damage, Sentries will slow the target enough for an easy aim and kill.
- why are you immediately assuming the unlikely instance of sentries focusing down 1 target with sym somehow being in 12m of the target with no threat to force her out of there?
- why are you assuming the target canât/wonât use a mobility ability to escape turrets or destroy them?
- why are you assuming the situation of sym defensively holding a choke without consideration of how she plays everywhere else esp on attack? and also without consideration that such really passive play often leads to really high down time and not contributing much to the team?
- you havenât considered how low other heroesâ TTK on her is vs her own. e.g. mccree landing a body is 70damage and can do so in like less than 0.5s iirc, i.e. his ttk on her is 1s~1.5s. to heal that up with shield regen is 3+70/30 = ~5.33s out of enemy LoS. if mcree lands a hs itâs ~6.33s out of enemy LoS to recover the full 100hp shield can recover with 40 of her normal health unrecoverable.
from that can you also really say her shield regen is efficient enough to let her keep up?
factor in how most heroes with <=2s ttk can do so from behind turrets because range or can bypass turrets with mobility, can you really say that shield regen actually helps sym if her escape is so currently unavailable?
can you lay out what standard youâre applying for a âbuilderâ hero so I can see whether youâre applying a double standard or not? 
like why does it have to be the case where symâs weapon needs to be gatekept by her 30hp turrets with 10m range that often needs the enemy to walk past rather than turrets being sent to the enemy (esp now with 
infinite tp) for them to contribute?
why do you want her to be put down the path of pubstomper by emphasising her easily destroyed computer controlled turrets so much instead of what the sym player has more control over?
Hereâs what I think they should do
Why would you assume that Symmetra would be alone?
So assuming that happens, what would the other two Sentries doing along with Symmetra?
Ideally, I wouldnât be using Symmetra on attack like I would a lot of more defensively minded heroes. If I was, I would probably set up in a closed room (where Symmetra excels) and bait and lure targets into it. It will doubtlessly take longer, but thatâs the choice I make when I Symmetra on attack. I have to know the limits of playing a defensively-minded hero on attack.
Again, why do you assume Symmetra would be alone?
But since weâll consider this case as Symmetra versus McCree situation, we would have to be aware of Symmetraâs weaknesses in open field and McCreeâs limited range. Ideally, McCree and Symmetra will see each other well before either one makes a shot at each other. Ideally, Symmetra here has the advantage, because McCreeâs shots would be doing less damage because heâs not in his ideal range, while Symmetraâs orbs - slow traveling as they are - threaten with a massive 140 damage.
Given that McCree isnât likely to hit 50% of his shots (because even the top end McCreeâs canât do that), averages will apply, and more likely, he will hit Symmetra once, and be unable to hit a second time. In that span of time - whether he is in optimal range or not - Symmetra challenges him with Orbs. As McCree moves closer into optimal range, Symmetra will have sentries ready to began attacking him. Ideally, they would be placed in blindspots he canât hit without turning his back to face Symmetra. But if he could, he would still need to waste time destroying the Sentries or risk damage and slow from them. Meanwhile Symmetra can continue threatening with Orbs.
Nearly every here in the game can kill a target in less than 2 seconds. Most can kill in less than a second. None of this is unusual nor unexpected. You play to the strengths of the character, not to their weaknesses.
Other Shield Heroes have to contend with similar problems, especially when their tools for defense are currently unavailable. Symmetra here is not much different, learn to use natural cover and have a Sentry ready to go to cover you. Decision-making is an important skill, how you decide to use those tools to your advantage or your defense is largely up to you. Thatâs not a failing on the characterâs design. Thereâs no mechanic inherent in Symmetraâs design that prevents her from seeking natural cover or the aid of her team to help her recover her health.
Much Torbjorn, a Builder utilizes devices to excel in the role their designed for. For example, a Healer builder would probably use some kind of device to produce healing, or in the case of a defensive builder like Torbjorn, a turret to control and threaten space based on line of sight.
Much like Torbjorn, Symmetra is built around controlling space. Whereas Torbjorn will utilize a weak turret (typically this does about 56 damage per second within a 35 meter zone based on line of sight), he can also apply an Ultimate through Molten Core to wall off or threaten an area based on his choosing and limited by ammo and duration (and range). In the cases of areas his turret canât reach, or in cases where his turret may need protection, he himself can fight back with a long ranged primary (about 70 damage per shot, arcing projectile) or a short-ranged shotgun (about 107 damage). To wit, both attacks are fairly slow in terms of fire rates, but are known for being pretty powerful when the land. Torbjorn can also Overload to improve his defense and provide a small haste effect to his regular. Overload is a replacement for the original Molten Core which transformed his turret to level 3 and accelerated its shots and fired rockets (much of that design and damage has been transplated in BOB).
Symmetra is similar in design, but fairly different and more unique. Whereas Torbjornâs turret by itself is pretty weak and requires constant assistance and cover, Symmetraâs turrets individually are stronger, add a slow effect and can attack from multiple angles normally not seen. This is comes at a cost; they are limited in range and are fairly fragile. Whereas Torbjornâs turret is 1 target, Sentries are three targets. Whereas Torbjornâs turret as 250 health, Sentries have 90. Whereas Torbjornâs turret is 14 damage a shot (56 damage per second), Sentries are 40 damage per sentry (unfortunately, I donât know the current tick rate, but I do remember the originalâs being 10-ish). In short, Sentries are balanced with Torbjornâs turret pretty well. And when combined with Symmetraâs own primary fire or secondary fire, produce an enormous amount of damage and slow targets caught until the Sentriesâ beams.
When it comes to destorying the builderâs devices, I need only look in one direction to find Torbjornâs and eliminate it to cease its damage. WIth Symmetra I need to look in three different spots and apply damage (melee if in range), to eliminate them. While eliminating the Sentries, I still take damage, just as I would from Torbjornâs turret. But once eliminated, Torbjornâs turret doesnât threaten me anymore. I may be able to kill one Sentry, but I still need to eliminate 2 more before I stop taking damage.
Alternatively, I could out range the Sentries just as I could outrange Torbjornâs turret, and take them out appropriately. Thatâs not a fault on them, but a weakness. To account for that weakness, the Builders need to place their devices in places not normally accessible, lest they be destroyed. As additional weakness (and encouragement to do so), the devices require time to setup and prep before they can be used.
Both Torbjornâs and Symmetraâs devices have had quality of life adjustments applied to them. Torbjorn can now deploy a turret and it will automatically build up to level 2 with no hammering. Symmetraâs Sentries now fly to designated locations rather than requiring Symmetra to be near a wall or object to place them. Secondly, Symmetra only requires three Sentries to be at maximum power, rather than six. Symmetraâs Sentries can also be teleported now when they could not be done prior (though, Teleporter was not an ability at the time).
All in all, for what their devices do, limited by, and threaten by, Symmetraâs and Torbjornâs are balanced. The math, logistics, and more check out. Primary fire for Torbjorn and alternative fire Symmetra are similarly balanced. As are their close-ranged options. Torbjorn has non-recoverable armor, but Symmetra has half her health in Shields. Shield health is generally more valuable than Armor.
Nothing is stopping you from doing this. It fits as creative use for Sentries, but Sentries are also much more lethal than Turret, and you can have them ready to go before you teleport them over. Torbjorn doesnât have that luxury.
Because that is what a builder is? Torbjorn isnât going to fare much better running around without his turret to supplement his damage. Heâs one of the easiest targets to headshot and one of the widest non-tank heroes in the game. Thatâs why he gets armor and Overload.
I mean you saying âall 3 turrets on 1 enemy + primary will kill in 2sâ is already assuming that the enemy is alone so you tell me whether weâre talking 1v1 or not. even in a team vs team scenario, sym having her team around her doesnât mean she wouldnât die or get forced out. like watch surefourâs hp bar and watch where he goes in this 1st push on attack:
if theyâre destroyed then thereâs no other 2 turrets now is there? and if weâre talking about your situation of turrets all being close enough to target 1 person then escaping 1 with mobility ability will highly likely escape the others (theyâre 10m range).
whatâs sym doing? well her best with her weapon which either is too situational from all the restrictions on it or is too slow to consistently land (giving enemies 0.6s to reactively dodge when fired from 15m is terrible for a weapon fire with sniper levels of charge up). hence the need for her weapon to not be gatekept by very easily countered turrets.
this already contradicts the entire purpose of the 3.0 rework.
hence why thatâs poor sym play compared to more dynamic flanks for picks or dynamic zoning where you turret areas where enemies will very soon fall into e.g. route 66 areas around petrol station if enemy is on top of it as theyâll soon need to contest the payload.
you do realise that itâs far easier to land mccreeâs hitscan shots than it is to land symâs orbs especially at ranged right? like you canât dodge hitscan, but you can dodge 25m/s orbs i.e. legit at 25m away, mccree or any other hero has a 1s window to dodge a fired orb that they can see coming i.e. already far reached a point where enemy incompetence in dodging matters far more than symâs aim. And that gets worse the longer the gap is⌠like in no way is that situation ideal for sym.
like you saay even top mccrees have 50% accuracy but did you check for sym top players for their accuracy? these stats are over a year ago according to overbuff but orbs havenât changed in terms of how to land them and:
https://www.overbuff.com/players/pc/Stevooo-1352/heroes/symmetra
wow, even a sym player that can get to top500 with sym achieve 35% weapon accuracy which is >90-th percentile. is it because he canât aim? well him making plays that kill junkrat tires via orbs and double orb slams via tp and how he gets to top500 says no. in other words, thatâs how inconsistent orbs are to land.
sym kills in >2s via either of her weapon fires while also having much more constraints on them. if that doesnât highlight how far below standard her weapon is then idk what will.
ummm⌠they donâtâŚ
- zen has range so he can operate near cover without much risk as sym does whose effective range including orbs are around 15m. zenâs weapon has more burst so he can afford peaking and playing around corners more. zenâs heal and discord lasts around corners for a bit to let him continue contributing when needing regen.
- zarya has double symâs hp and has 2s barriers to get 2/3 of the seconds to trigger shield hp regen while simultaneously let her move to cover and charging her weapon which also holds charge longer (more bursty than symâs in the longer run). zaryaâs primary is also longer than symâs for more flexible positioning esp to get behind the main tank.
- mercy technically doesnât have shield regen, but she has regen and hers starts in 1s and she has the mobility to zip behind cover to keep it active and her beam remains connected around corners for a few sec to actually allow her to utilise regen well
- sigma legit has 2 barriers to stop taking damage at will to trigger and utilise shield regen. his grasp even generates the nonregen shield for him if he eats anything.
sym doesnât have anything meaningful to let her reasonably utilise her shield regen. tp wouldâve given her more of a chance, but thatâs now either stuck elsewhere or stuck ticking on cd.
with a more frequent tp like old 3.0 tp, a passive that triggers her shield hp regen upon her interacting with her tp would really be getting her somewhere with being able to utilise her regen.
yes there is actually. her primary charge lasts 2s per level and is sustained damage, i.e. only gets value when used for longer periods of time. either you hard disengage and give up on primary or hard commit until either you die or you win the fight. there is no middle ground for it unlike the other heroes above who can re-engage without too much cost. the much harder difficulty to engage, disengage, re-engage and re-disengage also extends to the rest of her kit because of her poor mix of sustain, mobility, burst and effective range.
so at what does sym need excessively amount of help from her team to make up for various holes in her kit for her to be considered underpowered and needing changes to fill up those holes?
you already said her sentries have enough drawbacks, so why not make her weapon better?
her weapon is legit hot . doesnât have the range or torbâs. doesnât have the reliability of torbâs. primary simply doesnât mesh with her kit to the point that you can only use it as a finisher or only when team pocketted. her orbs are like a sniperâs weapon without any of the benefits of one. she canât get in the effective range of orbs (let alone primary) because theyâre slow and symâs mobility is now also .
tp and orbs should be the things to be looked at. esp since theyâre the things that sym would be using most of the match time.
tp cd being and enemies destroying them easily without a sneaky angle (which tp would solve but itâs right now like Iâve been saaying this entire time ).
except his weapon is decent on its own for torbâs sustain and mobility. symâs for her mobility and sustain is not.
builder != pubstomper. builder != player canât do anything without an AI controlled structure on the field.
torb gets armor and range for his weapon. whereâs symâs mechanismâs for hers? oh wait part of it doesnât exist (sustain) and the other part got hard nerfed (tp mobility).
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Stop bringing up my stats to try and defend your statements, you have no idea how the game works and I disagree with you on just about everything. Thanks!
https://imgur.com/a/aJH1vgi
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ok⌠so why are you posting your updated stats? o.o
Yeah, thatâs something I mention fairly frequently. In the same way Torbâs turret aims at what he does, I feel like Symmâs turrets should aim at what she aims at. This way her turrets arenât locked into focusing on an invincible target like a Mei in cryo-freeze or something.
One thing Iâd really like to see is for her damage to be a nice, constant amount instead of this ramp-up stuff, especially if sheâll never get the self-sustain she needs for it. I calculated she does a total of 1560 damage over the course of 10 seconds from a cold start to max damage, assuming 100% accuracy. So naturally, the best constant damage she can do without disrupting game balance too much is 156 damage/second. For reference Sombra does about 160 dps herself. Of course, thereâs always people who care about graphical elements more than gameplay and will complain that the âdamage level indicatorâ becomes useless as a result, so I was thinking it could be repurposed to show your distance from whatever the tip of the gun comes into contact with, with a full 3 bars indicating youâre at max range from your target. That way, an element of skill is added in positioning yourself to barely outrange your opponents, and measuring distance fits in with something an Architect would do.
I would like to do crit damage to hitbox by 150% at least. More range on primary. Maybe a stun or interrupt if you pass her wall (for enemies)
Stevo, what are your opinion on these suggestions? Symmetra is a hero you need to be careful with. Most people on the forum just wanna overpower her
Less than 50% McCreeâs have less than 50% accuracy.
So essentially 1 out of 3 shots (actually a little bit higher) will land, deliver 140 damage, or (since the game doesnât register splash damage as a hit), splash for up to 70 damage. Does the third-party website register or record whether these shots are fully-charged shots or partially charged or not at all?
Either way, it balances out. For every two shots McCree outputs at 140 damage, Symmetra will produce 1 shot of 140 damage, based on the percentages and other balancing factors this still ends up being pretty balanced all in all. Especially at the top end.
If you want exclude all other elements, sure. Torbjornâs turret will take 4 seconds to kill a 200 health target, 5 seconds to kill a target with 250 health, and a whopping 10 to eliminate a target with 400 HP and 100 armor.
Direct hits from Symmetraâs Orb will kill a target in around 2 seconds for opponents for 240 health or less, 3 seconds for opponents with 380 health or less, and 4 seconds for opponents with 500 health or less. Numbers looked balanced here if you wanna continue excluding.
Conviently, you neglected to (or simply chose to) ignore the caveat I included with my statement that their defenses were unavailable to them. Zaryaâs 400 health has no barriers available to protect against. 10 seconds; more than enough time to kill Zarya, with pretty much anything. So this argument is not valid.
Again, defenses are not available. 2 seconds, no allies, and must not take damage for more than 1 second. Secondly, Mercy does not have shield health. You couldâve argued for Wrecking Ball, but you didnât think about him.
He has one barrier, and one damage absorb. Heâs also a huge target with limited mobility. Like other shield based heroes, there are ways for him to regenerate his shield health by simply taking cover when both his cooldowns are unavailable (that means, no barrier, and no Kinetic Grasp). This again is not a good argument because it ignores elements of my statement that you quoted.
Thatâs a strange assumption, Symmetra can manually trigger the destruction of her teleporter, forcing it into a cooldown and allow it to be built again. (Granted this takes time, and thereâs a fair argument that exemplifies the issues of utilizing teleporter as escape option, but that argument also runs into problems with Symmetraâs own, incredibly powerful damage).
Unneeded and unnecessary, just retreating 30 meters in any direction of the teleporter would be enough to safely trigger the regeneration effect. Most heroes do not get that kind of escape distance nor health regeneration - especially not in the damage group.
Oh my god, a decision-making choice?! Do I retreat and regenerate my health and lose my damage charge. Or continue fighting and hope my damage ramps up enough to kill the target? This is not a valid argument. Every character has to make to a decision in situations like these. Genji has to make a choice to either dive in with Swiftstrike, not get a kill and be stuck without an escape option. Similarly, Mercy has to make a choice whether risk guardian angel-ing over to an ally in need of healing and mitigation while taking damage. The choices presented to Symmetra are neither exclusive, unique or unintended to her, because they exist in all heroes.
Irrelevant. You need to argue whether or not Symmetraâs dependency on her team is any greater than the dependency needed by any other heroes. Case to point, Reinhardt is a melee hero, he cannot hit Sentry above him because his range is too small. He can turn off his barrier covering his team and Firestrike it, and risk himself or the rest of his team, taking damage. That dependency is not unique to Reinhardt himself, either. Nor is Symmetraâs.
Itâs already pretty good. Youâre trading durability for firepower in your Sentries. If you want to argue about making her weapon better, you need trade away Sentry power, and flexibility, you may have also have to trade away teleporter functionality and coverage. You may also have to remove shield health. But by this point, everything unique about Symmetra would be eliminated. It can happen, but it would require a much more substantial rework of what Symmetraâs builder kit than previously changing around abilities, but overall remaining the same kit-wise. Itâs probably not something that Blizzard is willing to do, in part because Torbjorn already flexes this.
And much less damage. Again, you donât get it. You want Torbjornâs range? You can play Torbjorn. You want Symmetra to be like Torbjorn? You would have to trade away a lot of Symmetraâs existing kit to get that. No three Sentries, no high-powered beams, no shield health, no teleporter.
Torbâs turret typically aims at the closet target it can acquire or an attacking target that is aiming at the turret.
The thing with Symmetraâs Sentries, is while it probably could do that, I get the sense that it may not be possible in the current engine, and itâs something weâll have to wait for OW2 to have.
This would require a reworking of Sentry damage (it would have to ramp-up) and Symmetraâs beam being a constant fixed damage amount. I donât think will work, because I think Blizzard had already attempted something like this. Likewise, turning Symmetraâs beam into having the slow effect that her Sentries have (basically an exchange), would ape too much like Mei.
In otherwords, Symmetraâs beam works the way it does, because there really isnât any other ideas to make it work in the current setup. One idea, that would be fun to experiment is a type of focusing-lens via Sentries. Symmetra could aim her beam towards the Sentry and it would either acquire an enemy target or direct itâs beam to another nearby Sentry to magnify the damage delivered to an enemy target. This would mean that the Sentries would be incapable of providing damage on their own, and Symmetra would have to camp around them, but it would be something interesting to try, but be completely infeasible on its own.
The ramp up on damage more or less equates to a critical hit chance/damage without it being a critical hit. In otherwords Iâm trading away the chance to criticially hit for more consistent and ramped up damage.
I donât know what Sym needs but I know what I want: more range on her laser. Gimme more beam heroes, I have enough projectile characters to choose from already.
And make her OP? Her beam is so powerful her only drawback is the pathetic range
If itâs OP to simply add a few meters on the beam range, then lower level 3 damage at the same time.
The problem with Sym is how niche she is because of her design. She is incredibly powerful on attack capture points with TP and certain maps. Thing is, most Sym mains want her to be viable in every scenario so that they can continue to one-trick her. Like I guarantee you that no level-headed buff will actually satisfy teh Sym one-trick hivemind.
Unfortunately, that wonât every be the case due to her unorthodox kit. Thereâs a reason why a character ripped from CSGO is good in every scenario, but an unique character isnât. Sym is exactly like Bastion, Doomfist and Winston. Very powerful in some cases, extremely weak in others and VERY dependent on maps. Not to mention that she has a very annoying design, with an amalgam of Junkâs spamminess, Torbâs turret shenanigans and Zaryaâs crazy beam damage.
A rework thoughâŚ