What are those Widowmaker arguements

General Discussion
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Are those AI or literally players? I am really curious. Some complains about oneshot, some complains about grappling hook but best ones are complaining about widow getting healed by teammates which is crazy. Some even complain about venom mine. Are you guys okay in there?

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4

So why did you make a whole new thread about this instead of post over in Kev’s thread?

Widow’s pretty obnoxious to play against. It’s not surprising that people post about wanting her nerfed. Sombra’s the same way.

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Core character desing mentality in this game is not that good. I agree. We can argue in here and there about how mauga is bad designed or the other ones which one is makes sense a bit. But the specific widow ones makes me laugh so hard

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People have complained about widow for years. Entire metas (GOATS, Double Shield) came out just to try to counter widow. A ‘hitscan ranged oneshot’ has been a problem design since long before OW2 came out.

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Careful. Don’t think your logic for hating sombra isn’t being shot at widow the moment sombra changes. You’re gonna look very silly if you defend widow with all the same logic people use to defend sombra.

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Even if when you do all that’s left is death and emptiness. :cry: :joy:

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That is not true. These metas were not for countering specifically widow. Double shield is most likely for bastion to mitigate his damage and cycle the shields. Goats were so strong because they don’t die easily and can handle cosecutive incoming damage so well. Not for bursts mostly

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GOATS was started by a team with a specific goal to find a way to make an enemy widow useless, since widow is a server admin at high elos.

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bro is on a mission lol

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Sure thing. I got you bro.

Basically, Widow violates formal Counterplay Guidelines. That causes a big “Feels Bad”. (i.e. Qualitative Counterplay Issue).

Here’s the definition of “Counterplay” as described by the most senior gameplay designers at Riot and Valve. Respectively, Tom Cadwell, and Robin Walker.

Counterplay

“After you make your Choice, your Opponent should have the capability, to respond with their Choice, which includes the awareness that a Choice exists, and enough time to understand and react with their Choice”.

  • https://www.teamfortress.com/post.php?id=2477
  • https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:JAlbor/GDC_2013:_Teamplay_and_Counterplay_in_League_of_Legends

Which is true of literally every oneshot Sniper weapon in any videogame.

The Catch,
Every other modern shooter game in existence, have a fix for the “Feels bad” caused by the oneshot.

Widowmaker,
Does not.

https://reddit.com/r/Competitiveoverwatch/comments/12wi53y/hottake_snipers_are_strangling_playerbase_growth/

And essentially Widow got massive direct and indirect buffs between the end of OW1 and Season 12.
And she’s never gotten her rework.
If anything, her bullets got larger, and she’s more resistant to burst damage.

But yeah, Widow has been a problem, on a “Gameplay Feel” basis, for basically the entire history of Overwatch.

OW1 metas

  • TripleTank = Block the Widow/Hanzo
  • Dive = Dive the Widow/Hanzo
  • Quad Tank = Block the Widow/Hanzo
  • Double Sniper = Widow and Hanzo
  • Grav Dragon = Hanzo and Mercy
  • GOATs = Block the Widow/Hanzo
  • DoubleBarrier = Block the Widow/Hanzo

That’s like 95% of the meta duration in OW1, being dictated by ranged oneshots.

_

I am actually quite upset at the developers for this stuff.
Their playerbase could have been so much larger.

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15

You can easily counter enemy widow in so many different ways. So much option you can chose. I am not getting one shots in my games and i am enjoying games more if there is an enemy widow. If your positioning is bad and getting one shots, if you can’t force her out grapple to deny aggressive play by her, if you can’t burst her down quickly, if you can’t bait them out while they are waiting for you to peek, if you can’t put a shield in front of her etc. i am sorry but thats really sounds like skill issue. I am not struggling at any role that i play against widow personally. I like dueling enemy widow and killing her with some mind games as support or as dps

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I don’t give a crap about the Reddit/Twitch definition of counterplay.

And I’m insulted that you think that’s more relevant than the most senior gameplay designers at Riot and Valve.

Like 99% of the r/COW nonsense I gotta deal with is argumentum ignorantiam fallacies.
i.e. Claiming your lack of education is better than my evidence from world class professionals.

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You are getting angry because you don’t want to accept different opinions. I am telling you about my raw game experiences. You are talking about different companies, different studios and different games. You want to find something that corrects your thoughts. If they are like senior designers or developers, well even better to accept. These people talks with industry standarts. They are not gamers who playing 8 hrs a day same game. They are not testers either

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I’m fine with different opinions on core game design principles.

Just not from people who have never worked professionally as a gameplay designer, or mathematician involved in game theory.

Game Theory is a branch of mathematics.

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So in your opinion people shouldn’t cook if they are not a Michelline Chef? Am i getting correct? So every single company doing their job perfect because they have employees with some titles. If they say or do something about anything, they are right and noone cares about 3K or 8K hours players thoughts who actively playing? Man thats though

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If somebody says they can just redefined Math Terms, because of an uneducated vibes-only opinion.

Then yeah, I’d have a problem with that.

If you don’t understand game design at a “Sets of Choices” level. Then you don’t understand game design well enough to tell a multi-billion dollar company what to do.

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You can set everything perfectly fine on paper but the applying it will not be perfect every time. So many different parameters that you can’t calculate when applying a thing on practice. I know matematic btw. I am an engineer

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Cute. I’ve guessed roughly a third of the major changes to overwatch, and
I’ve worked as a business analyst for Fortune 500 companies for the last 10 years.
Including F2P programs with millions of dollars in ARR.

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I try to be. Authenticity is really important to me.

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I just saw this bro. I am sorry but I won’t argue with you anymore. You are so closed other opinions and you are a guy just accept what they give you if they have statues. Everyone can run a company, everyone can be a shareholder. Anyways, I enjoyed. Thanks for the conversation

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