⚠ Torbjorn Rework: Problems and How to Fix them

General Discussion
1

We already know that Torbjorn is next in line for rework after Symmetra.
In this thread I want to analyze his current problems and theorize about possible ways to fix them.

Disclaimer
Keep in mind that this thread is only about suggestions, not demands, and that all these suggestions may not be ideal and should be properly tested.

Problem #1: Power Disbalance
Currently, Torb plays more like TF2 Engineer with classic sentry. It means that Torbs himself is an addition to the turret. It worked badly in TF2 so Engineer was unpopular in Competitive TF2.
The reason is simple: if major part of hero power is focused in stationary AI controlled “minion”, this hero ends up being too powerful against low skill players on lower ranks, and absolutely garbage against high skill players at higher ranks. Low skill players struggles to deal with something that has auto-aim, while high skill players simply able to take an advantage over stationary targets.

Problem #2: Immobility
The second problem of Torbjorn is that he is almost useless on attacking side because of his immobility. He can’t provide a lot of impact in battle without a turret and turret takes too much time to set it up. Torbjorn is too connected to his turret.
Orisa had the same problem upon release: she was too immobile and she was not able to move with her team because her Barrier had a way longer CD. She was forced to stay near barrier for longer time simply because she could not move it quickly enough.
Torb has the same problem: he is forced to stay near turret for a long time.

Goals of Rework

  1. Power rebalance between Torbjorn and his turret: Turret should be an addition to Torbjorn, not vise versa
  2. Mobility improvements: Torbjorn should not be too heavily tied to his turret and the ground where he place it
    Attack potential improvements: Torbjorn should be more effective on attacking side while retaining his power on defense

Possible Solutions

  1. To make Torbjorn himself more powerful in combat
  2. To make Turret more autonomous in terms of setup
  3. To give Torbjorn better control over his Turret
  4. To improve usability of quick Level 1 Turret

Suggestions
First of all, we need to improve how Torbjorn sets up his turret and to make it more autonomous:

  • Torbjorn can now throw turret from range
  • (Optional) Turret can now be placed on walls and ceiling)
  • Level 1 Turret deploys faster
  • Level 1 Turret constantly regenerates health until deployed. Turret deployment can be interrupted only with burst damage
  • Level 1 Turret automatically upgrades into Level 2 Turret after X seconds (Suggestion: 6-8 seconds)
  • Turret CD decreased (Suggestion: from 8 to 6 seconds)
  • Level 2 Turret health increased from 300HP to 150HP+150Armor to make it harder to deal with
  • Level 3 Turret health increased from 800HP to 650HP+150Armor
  • (Optional: if Turret can be placed on walls an ceiling) Torbjorn can now repair his turret from range by main attack of his gun

Results:
Turret is now more like “fire and forget” in terms of setup. Torbjorn no longer needs to babysit his Turret to deploy and upgrade it. Instead, he can now quickly throw Level 1 Turret to provide some additional firepower for allies and distraction for enemies and engage combat by himself.
Ability to throw Turret from range and to deploy it in more unpredictable places will make it harder for enemies to focus both Torb and his Turret at the same time.
If enemies will ignore Level 1 Turret for too long they will be punished by more powerful and harder to kill Level 2 Turret.

Secondly, we need to improve Torbjorn himself to make him viable in direct combat. He is one of the most immobile and vulnerable heroes in the game, but addition of new mobility option will not fit his fantasy and role. Instead, we need to improve his firepower and survivability:

  • Base health increased from 200HP to 100HP+100Armor
  • Rivet Gun reload time decreased (Suggestion: from 2 to 1.5 seconds)
  • Alternate Attack now has the same rate of fire as Main Attack (from 0.8 seconds per round to 0.6 seconds per round)

Results:
Torbjorn is a weapon-/armor-smith so it is natural for him to have innate armor. Innate armor will compensate his bulky model and huge crit-box and bonus armor from Armor Pack can make him tanky enough to engage in direct combat.
Improvements for weapon will make Torbjorn less clunky to play.

Now we need to make Turret less oppressive against low skill players:

  • Turret now takes more time to focus on target before fire
  • Level 1 Turret damage decreased (Suggestion: from 14 to 12 per round (from 28DPS to 24DPS))
  • Level 2 Turret damage decreased (Suggestion: from 14 to 12 per round (from 56DPS to 48DPS))

Result:
Enemies have more time to react to Turret and they are less punished if Turret focuses them automatically.

But we also need to give Torbjorn more control over his Turret and its power:

New ability added - Target Lock-On

  • Works like Sombra’s Hack
  • Has 0.65 seconds casting time
  • Commands Turret to instantly focus on target
  • Focused target takes more damage from Turret (Suggestion: 20-50% bonus damage, depends on CD)
  • Suggested CD: 4-8 seconds, depends on bonus damage
  • Lock-on clears after 5 seconds if target is out of sight

This ability could be implemented in two different variations:
Variation #1: More Firepower - Less Utility

  • Target Lock-on Ability replaces Armor Pack on E button
  • Armor Pack remains on E button, but only when Hammer is equipped
  • This variations retains his Alternate Attack, but also makes Repair Pack harder to use in direct combat (but switching to hammer also reloads his gun, so it has its own pros)

Variation #2: More Utility - Less Firepower

  • Target Lock-On replaces Alternate Attack on RMB
  • Turret also enters Suppression Fire mode that not only increases damage, but also briefly slows target with each shot
  • In this variation Torb loses a lot of power against Tanks and other large targets, but his Armor Pack still can be used in direct combat and Suppression Fire makes him great against highly mobile and squishy heroes like flankers.

Results:
Torb has more control over his Turret so his effectiveness relies more on player’s skill rather than on AI.

Summary
Changes:

Base Stats:

  • Health increased from 200HP to 100HP+100Armor

Rivet Gun:

  • Reload time decreased (Suggestion: from 2 to 1.5 seconds)
  • Alternate Attack now has the same rate of fire as Main Attack (from 0.8 seconds per round to 0.6 seconds per round)

Build Turret:

  • Torbjorn can now throw turret from range
  • (Optional) Turret can now be placed on walls and ceiling)
  • Level 1 Turret deploys faster
  • Level 1 Turret constantly regenerates health until deployed. Turret deployment can be interrupted only with burst damage
  • Level 1 Turret automatically upgrades into Level 2 Turret after X seconds (Suggestion: 6-8 seconds)
  • Turret now takes more time to focus on target before fire
  • Level 1 Turret damage decreased (Suggestion: from 14 to 12 per round (from 28DPS to 24DPS))
  • Level 2 Turret damage decreased (Suggestion: from 14 to 12 per round (from 56DPS to 48DPS))
  • Turret CD decreased (Suggestion: from 8 to 6 seconds)
  • Level 2 Turret health increased from 300HP to 150HP+150Armor to make it harder to deal with
  • Level 3 Turret health increased from 800HP to 650HP+150Armor
  • (Optional: if Turret can be placed on walls an ceiling) Torbjorn can now repair his turret from range by main attack of his gun

New Ability - Target Lock-On:

  • Works like Sombra’s Hack
  • Has 0.65seconds casting time
  • Commands Turret to instantly focus on target
  • Focused target takes more damage from Turret (Suggestion: 20-50% bonus damage, depends on CD)
  • Suggested CD: 4-8 seconds, depends on bonus damage
  • Lock-on clears after 5 seconds if target out of side
    Variation #1: More Firepower - Less Utility
  • Target Lock-on Ability replaces Armor Pack on E button
  • Armor Pack remains on E button, but only when Hammer is equipped
    Variation #2: More Utility - Less Firepower
  • Target Lock-On replaces Alternate Attack on RMB
  • Turret also enters into Suppression Fire mode that no only increases damage, but also briefly slows target with each shot

Results:
With these changes Torbjorn can now participate in direct combat more freely because he is no longer strictly tied to his Turret due to its faster and autonomous deployment and upgrade. “Fire-and-forget” nature of new deployment and upgrade mechanics allow Torbjorn more effectively push with his team on attacking side, while retaining his zone-control power with hardened Level 2 Turret.
Turret is less oppressive in auto-aim mode, so enemies have more time to react, but its power drastically increases if Torbjorn effectively uses manual control.
Torbjorn himself is more powerful: he still lacks mobility, but this is compensated with better survivability and more firepower.

Note:
These changes are purely theoretical and cannot be balanced without testing. The goal is to suggest general direction of future rework rather than propose changes in accurate numbers.

Any constructive feedback is welcome. All comments help to keep thread alive.

23 Likes
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nice wall of text there, i’m sure it had a lot of ideas and stuff, i just want his turret to be smarter, and possibly have a more defensive side, if torb lands a shot on someone for the next 2-3 seconds the turret should shoot at them, the timer resets on landing another hit on them, or landing a shot on another target, also either being able to give armor to his turret, or for his turret to be able to consume healthpacks (or both), would help a lot for his survivability.

3 Likes
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They could just try to give him a normal critbox and up his projectile speed by a few

12 Likes
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Gonna be honest here, I only read the first bit after I saw how long it was. I’m just here to give my opinion that Torb’s main problem is that it takes too long and sometimes it’s too difficult to set up his turret.

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And you are completely right. This is one of the main problems I address there.

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Personally, I still maintain Torb is actually a good character in need of good PR and a few QoL adjustments. I like a lot of the ideas here, but they might be a bit much taken all together.

A few simple changes, like having the Level 1 turret start with full hp, faster reloading, and auto reload when molten coring would be great.

But if we are talking crazy rework ideas, here’s one I’d like to see:

It’s Called a Helmet (passive)

Whenever Torbjorn has armor, all critical hits are considered normal hits.

Would increase his survivability at higher levels, and not effect lower ones much.

2 Likes
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Give Torbjorn a wall climp

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Two of my biggest complaints right now are (1) his critbox is almost his entire body and (2) his turret is dumb as a sack of rocks.

I made a thread about how to fix (2) a while back.

https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/overwatch/t/a-suggestion-for-torbjorns-turret-prioritisation/56773/7

Torbjorn himself isn’t as bad as people make him out to be (hitbox aside). He’s got very good damage output, a small size, and portable on-demand armour. People just assume he’s awful in direct combat, but he’s really not. He does about 250 damage with his rivet gun’s shotgun, and 140 with its single bolt. It’s pretty good.

He’s not in as bad a spot as people make him out to be. That said, his main problem is the same as Engineer in TF2: He has a single turret, which can just get focus-fired and destroyed immediately, especially if people are using comms. I don’t think there’s really a way around it. It’s a flawed concept.

I think he could probably do with more buildables, like a buildable health pack, or anything that can provide value without just being obvious to the enemy team and will be destroyed instantly.

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Molten Core should automatically reload his rivet gun. His reload time is awful enough as it is.

2 Likes
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Remove armor packs, give him the mark ability that causes his turret to focus the marked enemy.

Love your ideas

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We can’t excuse design flaws by big headshot damage. I mean, all heroes with ability to deal headshot can do big damage. Hanzo always could deal 240 damage with headshots but he was awful and considered as troll pick before rework. Reaper always could deal enormous damage with headshots but he was clearly underperforming before Wraithform changes. And so on.

Devs already said that heroes like Symmetra and Torb have some fundamental problems that cannot be fixed by number changes. They simply do not fit into the game in its current state. The game evolves, the balance evolves, the meta changes.
I love Torb. I play him frequently and even my winrate with him is kinda high. But it is only because I play him only on certain parts of certain maps. Outside of these rare cases he is considered as troll pick by majority of playerbase.
During almost 2 years since release of the game Devs made and stated some conclusions:

  1. 2/2/2 is the most optimal comp. They don’t want force players to play in this format, but it crearly the most effective format for majority of cases.
  2. They don’t want heroes to be too niche. If hero is good only in some rare situations with rare conditions on certain parts of maps - it is clearly something wrong with the design.

Both Symmetra and Torb do not fit into these statements. And it is problem of design, not numbers. If problems of these heroes could be fixed by simple “buff X, nerf Y” - I am sure Devs would have done it a long time ago.

Actually, ability to throw Turret and to deploy it on walls and ceiling fulfills the same purpose as wallclimb. Torbjorn does not need ability to reach high places to be effective. He does not even look like an agile guy who can climb walls.
But ability to deploy a source of firepower in form of Turret in these high places will greatly improve his versatility.

I suggested to buff reload speed from 2 seconds to 1.5. It is the most common reload speed in this game. Further buff in Molten Core mode would make him too powerful, especially with ability to control even Level 3 turret with Target Lock-On ability.

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that was a joke ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
it would be ridiculous/absurd

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Okay, so I am going to go ahead and claim that your whole post is wrong in it’s core. Not gonna touch any of the balancing ideas, just going to look at your reasons and at the things you claim to be problematic for Torbjörn.

You see, that is where it shows that you are a bad Torbjörn, right in the first quoted sentence. The perceived major part of his power, not his actual major power. Everyone who plays Torbjörn knows that his turret is an asset, tied to an eight second cooldown. It is easy to sacrifice. At it’s best it is a mid-ranged hitscan aimbot with 56 damage per second damage output (if level 2). Meanwhile Torbjörn is a suitable off-sniper, a tank buster, good at tanking with his ultimate, and okay as a second or third support as well.

I came here straight from the game, where I actually had a little fun with playing Torbjörn in quick play to warm up, and then continued in comp. It was a very nice boost to my alt-account’s SR for the end of season. He doesn’t suffer more on attack as a McCree. The perception is that he is weak because he needs his turret. In reality - he doesn’t.

It already is, all I can say is to git gud.

He is not tied to the turret, in fact I for one use the turret very liberally, whenever I am in a teamfight or 1v1 I just put down a level 1 if my original was destroyed, etc. No one will put a gun to your head and order you to stick to the turret or build it up before you fight. Bad Torbjörn players do that.

Okay, so I already said that he is good on attack, which is something I claim. Unfortunately I only have experience and logic behind me, so this might be hard. However, one thing you need to think of is the „Defense” tag. Why should we improve him on all grounds? He is wonderful on defense and good on attack, no need to make him better.

But to maintain farness, as I am someone who plays a lot of Torbjörn will say a few things. This is a post I have made on the EU forums several weeks ago, and I hope I touched on some of the problems Torbjörn really does face. It might be rough to chew through as I didn’t cut down the fluff:

So I have been playing quite some Torbjörn over the past year or so and I’d say I got it down pretty well. I am also a diamond player and have been for the past six seasons, so I know the game at least somewhat.
By no means do I count myself a Torbjörn main, but since he is my most played DPS hero by far, and having spent an entire day dedicated just to him before writing this, I believe I can make a reasonable statement. And that is, as follows:
Torbjörn is an extremely inconsistent hero. To get the confusion away, I think he is an extremely powerful hero, and I have been rather deadly with him. The fact that he can rival the snipers to a lesser degree, dish out the same amount of damage as a McCree while also countering tanks with his shotgun is impressive. If you add to that the consistent damage the turret provides and that he can make his team incredibly hard to chew through via armor packs, I think we can all get an idea of how good he really is. Or rather, can be.
See, having all this said, his weapon’s projectile nature, the turret’s short lifespan, and the extremely large critbox he has makes him an extremely high risk, high reward hero.
Another thing that doesn’t help Torbjörn is his reputation. I usually see two types of him, one is the seasoned veteran who for some reason dedicated his/her life to playing him, the other is the inexperienced thrower. Intentionally griefing, or just spending too much time on their turrets, these players gave Torbjörn a bad name. And the fact that the best Torbjörns will get countered easily by heroes he cannot reach or reliably hit because of his projectile weapon (Pharah is one example) or who are too elusive for him and his turret (Sombras and Tracers mainly)doesn’t improve his standing.
Of course this is a team game, but I personally know that a lot of players won’t help out a Torb because of the stigma his name carries. Opting the playstyle and trying to rely less and less on the turret is key here, but if you do that, you could very well pick heroes who are better for any of the tasks Torbjörn is good at. As I said, he has a lot in him, but he’s not the best at anything, even when it comes to turrets, he is not as good as Bastion.
So this is sort of a plea for Blizzard. They said they will rework Torbjörn, which I am not exactly happy about. The last rework was Mercy’s, which I found irksome and not too good. Instead I’d ask for a list of compensating nerfs and buffs to take place (I am not sure if a list like that counts as a rework, someone upgrade me on the correct terminology). This is also an invitation for anyone and everyone to share your ideas, or comment on mine. And my ideas are:
1.) Increase Torbjörn’s health from 200 to 250. Reasoning: Torbjörn has a gicantic head, even more so if you look at his hitbox-critbox ratio.
2.) Decrease Molten core’s armor gain from 300 to 250. Reasoning: The increased health gives Torbjörn sturdiness throughout the game, but his ult already provides an outstanding amount of armor, which could be too much.
3.) Increase the range of Forgehammer. Reasoning: For the memes! (When D.Va was a real menace I optimized my Torbjörn playstyle. Whenever I went Molten Core the D.Va was able to eat up most of my damage from me and the turret, so I simply switched to the Forgehammer and started to deal damage through that. It’s abysmal range is a huge letdown, however.)
4.) Make Torbjörn’s reload faster during Molten Core. Reasoning: Torbjörn already has one of the longest reload times in the game, and some enhancments in his most combat ready state would be neat.
5.) Increase Molten Core’s charge from 1625 to 1800. Reasoning: Molten Core is easy to get up, and fairly strong if not countered fully. With the buffs to Torbjörn’s personal kit I think it is only reasonable to make it harder to get (while making it rewarding).

Now the rest is pretty much optional, but I think these changes above would help out greatly. But here are some other ideas I thought of or heard from other players:

  • Focus ability: Make Torbjörn able to set the target for his turret/turret targets the heroes Torbjörn damaged recently/turret targets heroes damaging Torbjörn
  • Molten Core makes Torbjörn immune to crowd control
  • Molten Core gives a free armor pack to Torb upon expiration, if Torb has one already it gives a bonus that stacks
  • Molten Core increases the scrap generation rate
  • New ability: The ropebomb from the Binary comic, essentially a short stun

I think that pretty much wraps up for me. One thing they could do is making the shotgun’s spread a bit better, and/or making his shots have less of an arc, but these could make him too good at other heroes’ jobs. One side note, I think every ult in the game should reload weapons just like Soldier’s.
I’m interested in what y’all think. Cheers.

3 Likes
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summary of it is
turret throwable
turret autobuild/upgrade
torb alt-fire quicker
torb 50% armor 50% hp
turret 50% armor 50% hp
Ability to make turret target enemy

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Juat start with making him not a walking critbox. Its not only bad that he takes x2 damage from most things all the time its also extra easy to hit crits on him since he is so short. So what would normaly be a hit to an enemys chest is now a headshot.

I would love Torb to be more of an armor giver and normal dps rather then a turret babysitter. I would like him to play more like a Gunslinger engineer from TF2 rather than what he is now. Drop a turret for some extra fire-power/distraction and go supply armor and do damage.

The Rivet-gun is already a great gun as it is. I love how it has no fall-off so you can score nice HS from across the map. A faster reaload would be nice tho.

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Hitbox was probably made because of the power spike molten core provides. But increasing his health in general would be a neat way of countering this.

And what stops you from being an armor giving gunslinger? Only you can dictate how to play, go in, put down a level 1 turret, kill things, collect the scrap and provide armor. It is easy to do. A lot of Torbjörn players who are considered good do this. The turret is not better than Torbjörn, especially how it is tied to him in many cases (Torbjörn’s death cancels Molten Core, dying shortly after placing the turret will make it suicide, etc).

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With how laughably easy it is to destroy, maybe the level 1 turret should not have the laser indicator to show enemies exactly where it is?

1 Like
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Torbjorn Change: Give him wall climb

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For the level 1 turret a shorter spawn and build-up time (when it gets it’s 150 HP up) would be a good thing also.

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one thing i wanna see is target aiming for the armour pack, like brig. so many times im trying to give armour to my healer but someone like a freaking tank walks over the armor before the healer can grab it, its kind of hard to land the armour on someone constantly moving lol, it also feels weird to throw them around and then be wasted when the enemy pushes past the armour