What does that have to do with anything? People are given a name at birth by their parent which no one ever has an issue using… unless its something offensive then they get a nickname by some
God I hate this stupid character
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You can literally jump over it
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Long post cause some live in a well.
TLDR: Just read last 2 lines of this post, that sums it well.
Female, probably yes.
Venture is more of a Tomboy - with more like a “I’m a female, but my gender is non-binary, as in I categorize myself in neither male nor female” sort of thing.
Now I sit and wait for forumlets to attack me for writing this out.
And meanwhile you need to stop going into the DNA of things, next up on this extremely politically correct you’ll probably also should advocate that OW games promote violence, killing, resurrection, magic and other propaganda.
The character Mcree was named after a dev at Blizzard, who ended up Sexually harassing people lost his job and all that, and to remove any association with the character, the character’s name was changed.
One could argue that you are mis-labelling Cassidy as Mcree and this is offensive and even promotes the sexual harasser or even supports it.
See, we both can take a topic and make it ridiculous while trying to make a point in it.
But you’ll notice no one would call you out on the mcree bit, why? cause it’s
- The internet, people have their freedom and this is the last place you can try suppress stuff
- Noone cares about going into the DNA of things to then create an issue
Which is something you should learn from.
Go helping gender issues when your help is needed, go make some IRL difference infact instead of e-preaching stuff you yourself don’t seem to follow in correct labelling.
So, you agree to change it only after you have in a way inflicted trauma? and then make changes, yet debate that others should go out of their way to stick to the DNA of things.
Noone is gonna call it out FYI, even me making that a topic above was just to be sarcastic about it.
You do you bud, no one is gonna whine about it.
This is one of those “I don’t see an issue, but i want an issue, so an issue is I must debate in” cause it probably makes you feel like you are making a difference somewhere to this cause, but it ain’t.
The sentiment is right but the approach is far from any value.
Then stop making it like its a warcrime, writing thesis on it in a topic that was about nerfs. You saw some user who probably doesn’t even know anything on Venture write a “her” - you then went to call it out passively aggressively, then got replied to and immediately went down the rabbit hole.
In a way, this is what I would call gaslighting - or “Reductio ad absurdum”
Although both are correct.
If my name is Sawada and i say i prefer sawawa cause that’s what my friends call me and you call me Sawada, its still ok.
Its not being a jerk.
Noone was being a jerk, no one even objected, until you come in stomping around calling others jerk.
its one of those “i don’t have anything to do so make an issue where there isn’t one is i shall”
Like going to a Muslim country and preaching benefits of pork or going to a hindu area and saying beef is healthy. Sure it is healthy, but its the location that defines social constructs.
And the internet is the last thing where you whine on these.
Far from being absurd, this is laughable that this is your diagnosis/guess.
I am looking forward for you to next say that If I play moira and I am in medical field I should get my medical license revoked because this reflects my own morality of things irl or I will have issues IRL with this.
Same is next for Reaper, and so on.
It’s very easy to say you think to understand the entire person based off something they don’t even agree on.
If I told you if you are from the west and you eat beef and you come to talk about it here where I am right now, you will be physically thrashed - bet you’ll say we are barbarians over here.
But the real barbarian would be the person who goes on saying stuff without understanding anything of the place.
This sums this entire meme convo up in one sentence.
Some don’t have a lot to deal with, so more problems they make to then solve them.
I agree, then you go express yours and let others express theirs.
Don’t go on saying things that cater to everyone and then make it about just one thing.
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Even if for some reason you don’t believe in pronouns (you do you, I guess. (or " " do " ", I guess)) by your own santa logic you should respect other people’s choices on how they want to be referred to.
So you agree that names aren’t determined by parents? Lots of people change how they are referred to. So here it’s they/them.
This is not a coherent response. Read my post again if you’re having trouble.
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On what basis do you call them ‘probably’ female?
I suspect that more people would respect the character if the design wasn’t obscenely terrible. But as it is, people are rightfully not predisposed to be kindly to what is without a doubt the most poorly made character in the game.
Do not insult tomboys like that ever again
I’m sorry, but blaming this random poster for not only anti-trans laws (which doesn’t really have a direct correlation to nonbinary pronouns btw) AND for nonbinary people committing suicide… that’s just extremely bad faith.
I agree with respecting pronoun preferences, but you need to get some perspective here.
- It’s a video game character who doesn’t exist.
- Equating an unwillingness to use gender-neutral pronouns with suicide, dehumanization, and oppressive governmental regimes is false equivalency on steroids
If you actually care about these issues, how about we not immediately try to bludgeon people over the head with them at every opportunity? You’re just making people who care about pronoun use look silly with comments like those, which does 0 favors for the queer community.
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No thats not me saying I agree. You are confusing names with pronouns. If someone changes their name great I will call them by said name. But them telling me that they go whatever pronouns or sounds that they have made up to feel special I respectfully decline to use them. I will call someone by name but I dont fall into the pronoun hype.
You have to also understand… People have a right to choose their pronouns… but others have the right not to use them.
I can’t blame you for that idea because the “respect” part in my post is left to interpretation, but in that specific case, i meant “respect” as in respecting the right of others to believe in whatever, which doesn’t equal to “submit” to their beliefs. That being said, we can even keep the initial way you saw that post and it wouldn’t change anything, actually making it worse for your side. By that, i mean that you completely ignore the second half of that logic, which is “i respect your beliefs, and so should you respect my beliefs”, otherwise it makes the whole thing completely unfair, i think anyone would agree on that (me having to respect your beliefs and you not mine). So now we’re in a funny situation, where when we interact, i must use your “pronouns” to show respect, but you musn’t use them to show your respect in return.
PotGs are wack. I don’t even stay in the match long enough to see them. Last one I saw today was Larry ulting and barely getting ONE kill on another low hp Larry with it.
It’s a distinction without a difference really.
Someone feels more comfortable using different pronouns or name, like they or he and they’re asking you to call them by what they’ve chosen for themselves. It doesnt take any more effort than learning a new name.
You can also choose not to “respect” someone’s new name but, just like the pronouns, it really just makes you look rude and doesnt reflect anything on the person.
Kinda weird to think you need to ““submit”” to someone by using a name, as opposed to just applying social skills, but ok.
Not really. Even if we stay in your analogy, when talking to the person who believes in santa, mutual respect comes from me not disrespecting your beliefs. Like opening your presents for you a day earlier because I don’t think theres a difference. A much better analogy is names like I mentioned earlier. If someone changes their name for one of the many reasons there are, calling them by their old name e.g. post-marriage, is seen as weird, if not rude.
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I can agree with you on that being weird in classic cases/subjects, but we both know this topic (as we can see both in this thread and in society) is a controversial one, and behind the innocent “pronouns” stands an ideological opposition between the two parties. So no, there’s nothing simple here.
The first sentence is totally true, but we’re coming back to square one since you’re not defining (neither did i initialy about respect) “disrespecting” or respecting the beliefs. You then propose an example of such respect with the presents, and again i totally agree on that one. The only problem here is that it’s not connected to the actual topic of discussion since in that analogy you’re not demanding anything from me nor am i from you, those are my presents and i’m technically allowed to open them whenever i want, we just not agree on the “day earlier” belief in that example.
About the names analogy you’re right, there’s nothing to oppose to that besides the earlier point i made about what names, or in this case pronouns, hide/imply.
It’s pretty easy to adjust your second example to fit in this controversy. Let’s say a man called Bob (everyone likes Bobs) asks in an extremely serious way to henceforth be called Sarah or Jennifer. I really doubt most people would do so without at least questioning it, if not at all.
Once again, beyond names or pronouns or whatever relates to this, there are both a coherence problem and an ideological problem.
You’re pointing interesting things so i wanted to answer, but beside that i still stand behind that whole part,
even though the whole thing needs to be discussed deeper of course.
Accuse the other of that which you are guilty, right?
Incorrect.
Also wrong. They are a nonbinary or trans person which is a valid identity. Anything you want to know about Venture specifically, there are multiple Reddit and blog posts about them, spanning over 9mo ago:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Overwatch/comments/17n88uj/comment/k7unw63/
You should probably identify as someone who drops this word/phrasing from your vocabulary, it seems embarrassing, but maybe you enjoy embarrassing yourself on here, that’s your right as much as is someone else’s right to choose how they’d like to be referred to.
“Stop thinking about things” feels like it’s not very smart. Maybe you should think about certain things more?
It’s actually not extreme at all. Queer people have always existed and will always exist. Respect them?
Again, you need to think a ton more. Obviously, I don’t care about those things in a video game. I do care about how human rights are represented in a videogame, though. And there’s propaganda about how omnics don’t deserve rights and that they deserve genocide. Are you even aware of the game you’re playing and the human rights themes paralleled in it? Like you can be as ignorant as you please, just don’t do it in public for all to see 
. Why do you think it is that you’re so happy denying others of humanity they’re asking for? Or like what do you think drives your behaviour like that, you think you’re right in it or you think they’re delusional? How do you think you’d feel if you’re perhaps wrong on that…
I’m aware of his history. I overthink things, not underthink them, remember?
If you read, I’ve already addressed this. The difference is I’d stop using the name in front of someone if I knew it upset them. Will you stop using she/her pronouns in front of others if you know it upsets them? Why not? Is it because you don’t respect trans/queer people or do you guys have a worse reason?
Only one of us here are making ridiculous arguments, but if you want I can also start.
So far you’ve pointed out literally nothing I should learn (but I’d love for you to start). Less so, the other way around.
It’s needed here, people just like to stick their fingers in their ears while gleefully misgendering people thinking it’s cute. Spoiler: it’s not cute.
You have no idea what I do IRL? Why would you assume I don’t help trans people IRL as well if I’m this vocal about the issue here? I have no idea what you mean by ‘following in correct labelling’. I’m using names and pronouns that have been communicated as ok for me to use. Are you and people like you?
It’s well-documented in English that you should refer to Venture as they/them.
Not addressed to you, so why are you commenting? Since you’re quoting me though I’ll keep shattering your flimsy points for all to see. Sorry to sound so violent.
I guess if you don’t see the issue in something it doesn’t exist? You’ve never been offended by something someone else doesn’t care about or doesn’t understand because it doesn’t affect them?
The reason I’m responding to you and farming you for likes is to show you and people like you that you’re being really weird, you’re on the wrong side of history on this, and that you should consider changing or masking behaviour if you want to operate on public forums like this. I severely doubt at this point you’d change your mind, but it could possibly change someone’s, hence me ‘wasting my time’. I frankly do not care if you change your mind or not. You have the right to think what you want just as trans people should have the right to live unbothered by you trying to dehumanize them through something as simple as a pronoun just because you enjoy being stubborn and you don’t care when it’s seen as you dehumanizing them. You shall not be coerced!
Oh, I’m so glad you admitted I’m right in this. IDC how my approach comes off when it’s to people who are being wilfully ignorant. I main tank, I can tank bigoted wrath.
So I can’t tell you what pronouns you should use but you want to tell me how to act!? The snowflakism!!!
I’m willing to bet you misuse a bunch of terms if you can’t even get pronouns right. Ergo, this is not gaslighting.
You have been, I assure you.
Again, you being ignorant of an issue doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.
It’s nothing like that but there are few benefits to eating pork. Beef there are more, but it depends on a lot of factors. Hindus might agree eating beef is healthy, but religious convictions are religious convictions. Expain to me again, what does this have to do with anything or have to do with pronouns?
Pretty certain the internet is for almost literally everything. Are you the arbiter of what the internet is for, now!?
Provide us examples of you using the correct pronouns to IRL people, we’ll wait 
I really hope you don’t work in the medical field if you can’t even get simple pronouns in a video game correctly.
You are conflating what does and doesn’t matter. Most things in OW doesn’t matter. Things that do matter in overwatch are conversations about genocide (through omnics) and human rights (through queer representation, and in this case, trans rights). Nobody cares (most people don’t care) Mercy has a witch skin. Fundamental religious types aren’t playing this game for a slew of reasons. People do care you refer to Venture properly. If this thread wasn’t a good enough indication.
That’s because thrashing someone because they ate beef or talked about eating beef is barbaric. Do you disagree?
Arbiter of The Internet and Barbarism. I want to see your qualifications!!!
For one side. The other side wouldn’t equate believing in Santa to the basic rights of being referred to how you want to be referred.
TL;DR: just stop being a jerk and I’ll stop treating you like you’re being a jerk.
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You’re entitled to feel like it’s bad faith, but I don’t agree. I didn’t blame them for anti-trans laws. I blamed their ideas and rhetoric as what drives anti-trans laws, because it does. Could I have been nicer? Yes. But I’m too old and sick of these themes and have seen too much IRL to sugar coat for people with certain rhetorics. You might catch more flies with honey, but I have so little left I reserve it for IRL conversations I have with IRL friends who don’t understand the issues. Call me out on that if you want, but the only people who liked your criticizing me have been on the anti-trans side in this discussion, sorry.
I have about as much perspective as I need, but:
If people don’t care enough to even get a pronoun right, what kind of message does that send to young trans people? Maybe that society doesn’t care about them and a mass of people would prefer if they weren’t around so they don’t have to inconvenience them in something as simple as language? Sorry, these ideas come from somewhere and I know too much to keep quiet on this for the sake of idle niceties.
If it was every opportunity, I wouldn’t have time for literally anything else. I’ve seen this topic hundreds of times and I’ve been relatively quiet on it. How about we don’t falsely imply that I don’t care about these issues, or if I actually did, I’d act the way you might prefer I act? People are diverse in many ways, and just because you think your way is the right way forward doesn’t make you correct. Maybe don’t try and police how I feel comfortable in my discourse with others on a very sensitive topic. I’d argue you do more harm than good if you do care about these issues by checking my tone instead of the person/people who actively misuse Venture’s pronouns.
I stopped caring long ago as coming across as one of the good ones. My own self-respect is worth more than the praise and perceptions of bigots, as harmful as you might think it is to the cause.
I see a lot of your posts and like a lot of them as well, but we do not agree in this arena, sorry.
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Well it can’t be “incorrect”.
Venture is either Female or Male at birth, this isn’t made clear in the wiki - so you can call either.
Or are we now going into the definition of male/female?
Male female bit isn’t gender tho, its biological sex.
You do your own labelling of it in the gender folder as you suit.
Well then its great you are going by the book, have fun, you do you.
To each their own, keep those likes farming coming in tho.
Oh yeah cause in the medical field its the social construct that’s gonna get more value instead of the biological one. totally.
Like this conversation.
They also don’t care either.
Both sides exist.
Would love to see you try this logic in say… SA, about pork.
The point of the conversation was, there isn’t a need to go on correcting everyone demanding their go fix their sentences, you knew very well when you went passive-aggressive pointing into OP’s first message with yours on what you are poking on.
All it did was this waste of time debate of thesis not even related to the thread. Cause you wanna bring into this agenda which bore zero results, debating with a user you ain’t gonna convert cause we live in completely different worlds.
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There is a simple aspect to it, and thats just respecting someone’s non-invasive personal decisions. I agree it’s a somewhat new social development and I don’t think you should be required to truly believe someone’s gender choices, but I really dont think just referrinvg to them with pronouns you wouldn’t blink about using otherwise is an invasive step. They’re probably already dressed in a way that reflects that so it frankly feels unintuitive to forcibly go the other way. It’s starting an argument with someone (everyone) who you’re probably going vto forget in 5 mins.
The reason i moved past the Santa analogy is because it was limited and not especially relevant. If Bob goes by Sarah, that’s their choice. People might question it at the start like people do with all change, but over time, and if Sarah is seriovus about it, people move because it’s Sarah’s life. Tov what you were saying earlier the difference between the two sides of respect is that it’s a choice by Sarah about her own life. You might disagree or disbelieve, which I’m just going to leave alone, but in a free and Democratic society Sarah’s earned the right to decide who she is. And it doesnt require anything other than you basically learning a new name.
The hostility is especially outsized when you consider that religions need far greater considerations from other people in our world yet they have legal protection over their practices/rituals (again non- invasive ones). You dont tell someone what to wear day to day and you dont tell someone what they call themselves.
Edit: I must have missed your reply, but it’s been a while and Im not going to necro the thread. Plus tbh I come here to talk about overwatch and these convos get tiring. We’ll just agree to disagree for now
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venture needs a nerf
to
gender terms
to
Santa clause
I love this place
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Once again what you say it’s interesting and correct on many levels, but regarding the issue itself there’s a fundamental problem that can be adressed pretty fast :
I totally agree on the “you do you” part, you call yourselves whatever you like and everything that goes with it and it would be wrong in that scenario from me to correct you talking about yourself. But the moment you ask/expect me to adapt my speech to your expectations, your personal decisions becomes in fact invasive, that just can’t be denied it’s logical. The only solution here, and i come back to the initial problem (not topic since we were talking about nerfs), is for people to freely use or not Venture’s pronouns without correcting the other side.
Same goes for the Bob-Sarah part etc.
I can’t tell you what you are (not talking about science based elements which are neutral facts) and that’s quite normal of course, same goes for how you want to refer to yourselves as. On the other hand you have no right to force me to adhere (in deed, if not in belief) to a subjectiv and personal decision.
(I don’t mean to be agressiv by using “you” in those sentences, you get that it’s a “x or y” you thing of course).
To end this on a somehow funny note, in most free and Democratic societies we get told what to wear via dress codes (mandatory or not) and you can’t name your children/rename yourself whatever you want.
I think the analogy with religions is really wobbly when you consider the magnitude of the hostility shown towards believers and between believers themselves across history and even now in many parts of the world. Pretty sure religions would like hostilities against them to be reduced to issues with pronouns.
Just remove her from the game,sick of hearing her adhd voicelines.