Untouchable healers is root of all problems - incl snipers

[Hotaru251-1596]

@anon13691246

Blizzard designed healers to be untouchable monsters that can singlehandedly defeat DPS if they dare venture close.

mercy tops out at 100 dps & has no self sustain while under fire.

Zen has 120 dps and no self sustain while under fire.

@anon13691246

healers have too much sustain

no support has over 100 self heal (only ana and on nade so its a 1 use).
lucio/moira/brig/kiriko/have 60 or less. Bap’s regen cd has 100 but only when under 50%.

what flanker is doing less than that? (a bad one i assume but then that isnt the support beign too strong thats a bad persons aim)

@anon13691246

Enter Widowmaker, Ashe, Hanzo and McCree.

have all been popular picks for last 4 yrs.
nothing to do with supports.

@anon13691246

There is your Widowmaker problem: It is rooted in the healer-problem.

no, because again widow was issue in past and only reason its more noticeable now is lack of a 2nd tank to block her shots.

@anon13691246

But since healing is their defining characteristic, that is what I am going with.

i’d argue zen’s defining part is his amp and dmg not his healing (as he has low ST healing)

Support shouldn’t be free kills just because they are supports & supports die more often now than in OW1. (stated by devs)

[MeiRa-22568]

It’s not supports (yes, supports, only one hero in the role is technically only a healer and even she supports by scaring off enemies with consistent low damage on squishies) being ‘untouchable,’ which they’re absolutely not; it’s the healing creep that you’re feeling and at times it feels really obnoxious. Heroes like Ana having insane HPS; Bap getting the instaheal on Regen Field, Brig getting the 25 HP instaheal on her repair packs. Heck, last season the worst offender, despite Ana existing, was Mercy.

I agree healing needs to be, on average, reduced, (although I think Moira and Kiriko are the exceptions in terms of bigger healing numbers over 10 minutes, as well as Lifeweaver) but to pin the blame for snipers being so obnoxious on supports, is wild. Snipers do what they can do regardless of support power. We nerf supports without addressing them, they’ll still be obnoxious.

There is a cycle, though: Snipers strong, buff/help flankers in some way to deal with them but this causes big problems for the support role, so buff their survivability and in some cases even their raw healing output (looking at you, Ana in S2 as one of the more recent examples) in order to help combat it, therefore snipers strong because flankers aren’t as good against supports, so buff or force a flanker meta, etc. It’s such an obvious cycle rooted in the existence of snipers.

@anon13691246

There is no better counter to Widowmaker than Tracer, but Tracer gets too little value to be usable

She has literally been one of the best DPS for the past few seasons at the top. She may be difficult to use, but she is very much well and beyond viable.

Also the best counter to Widow is a better Widow, which is sadly the truth of it and very clearly unhealthy for the game. There’s a reason why higher ranked games often turn into ego battles where the outcome of a fight is decided by which sniper wins the ‘duel,’ which almost always has the same result for every fight following. It’s so cringe.

@anon13691246

If you have a problem with me calling them healers instead of support, let me know when one exists that can not heal

This is such a weird hill to die on lmao

As an aside: you don’t need to kill a support in order to distract them enough to kill one of their teammates; just take their attention when your team would engage. They have to choose trying to survive you or give their whole attention to you, either way opening up a vulnerability for their team. This is a team game, after all. It’s not supposed to be normal to solo team kill 1v5.

[anon13691246]

@Azrael-13313

Support characters enable and help others increase their performance.

But abilities like damage boost mean nothing without damage to boost.

Speed boost means little without a team mate that needs to get through a choke or close the gap.

It’s so frustrating to spend your time watching others squander your efforts to enable them.

But that isn’t really the issue, is it? The issue is, that the healers have been given abilities to essentially become untouchable.
Kiriko is of such a level of untouchability that it just beggars belief. A tiny hitbox, logs for missiles making her almost unbeatable at short range and an unstoppable and unchasable escape to boot.

This has nothing to do with enabling others. This is a hero that can do it all, and unfortunately that is the way the newer healers have been designed. Original Brigitte could also beat flankers (and whoever else unfortunate enough to be near), Moira is also a good dueller and can beat most DPS and healers in 1v1.

The older healers were more fair. Sure, Zenyatta can be a ferocious opponent at close range, but he has little mobility and a fairly big hitbox, making him easy to get down. If he doesn’t land his shots in ½-1 second, he is usually toast.
Ana is usually toast if she doesn’t land her sleep dart.
Mercy has only limited abilities to directly defend herself - her main defense is her movement.

Those heroes feel much fairer than the new ones.

@lorenzo-11776

say everyone can probably guess what will happen if supports become closer to free food with less sustain.

Im attaching you to this reply, because It addresses you as well.
As I say above, the old healers feel more fair. Noone would call Ana “free food”.

[glitchplease-1834]

@anon13691246

If you have a problem with me calling them healers instead of support, let me know when one exists that can not heal.

do you call soldier 76 a healer

[anon13691246]

Ya, in some games - I sometimes even call him main healer when the healers are particularly pepega

[Coffey-21192]

On my smurf in gold people rather shoot a tank that is being healed by 2 supports than try to hit the supports with their potatoe aim.

Skill issue.

[Azrael-13313]

From a game deaign perspective, if a character is limited offensively, they need something for self-defense.

Typically speaking, your options are:

-Durability: soaking up hits and damage with higher hp, shields, or other defensive abilities. In OW, this has largely been given to the tank role.

-Crowd Control: deterring would be attackers with debuffs to limit or prevent attacks. Once again, in OW this has largely been given to the tank role.

-Evasion: utilizing mobility options to avoid or limit enemy contact. This option is the most commonly used with supports in OW.

Support characters vary in their ability to duel and be an offensive threat, but are at a distinct disadvantage compared to both tanks and DPS.

You simply cannot have characters that are limited offensively and do not have some combination of the traits listed above.

Otherwise, such characters will be focused and be completely dependent on their team for protection.

[Cosmic-13854]

A support needs either great dueling potential or an escape ability to survive in this 5v5 tundra imo
I’m not a whiz on balance so maybe I’m being dumb

[glitchplease-1834]

based

[Quelithe-2541]

@anon13691246

Blizzard designed healers to be untouchable monsters that can singlehandedly defeat DPS if they dare venture close.

If you are talking about Moira - her kit is literaly just DMG, she IS suppose to be good against flankers.
But if you feel this way about all supports, than that seems like an skill issue.

@anon13691246

If you have a problem with me calling them healers instead of support, let me know when one exists that can not heal. On that day I may choose to use support. But since healing is their defining characteristic, that is what I am going with.

If you use “healers” so much, you make it look like you have no idea, what this role really is about.

[Haba-21716]

And yet, people cringe whenever one says “I want supports, not healers”.
Healers is such a boring game-design. Sure, it can be in the game, but the fact that all supports needs to have healing to even be considered viable is so suck suck.
Symmetra was a great concept of a support, but they gave up, because Blizz lacks gall and the community is ignorant and just want a replica of the holy trinity.

Imagine if you could have cool utility-abilities in your supports.
Instead we have to waste at least one ability-slot on healing. It sucks so bad.
If you adjust damage and healing across the board, and made it so that healing is not a necessity, I would have so much more fun playing support.

[anon13691246]

As I said above, the older healers don’t feel unfair. They are still balanced, so something is right about them, I would say.
IMO the game should have stayed with the design philosophy under which the old healers were created, one where all heroes have weaknesses. Today they have no weaknesses (it goes for all new heroes, not only healers) - they are essentially all Mary Sues/Gary Stus.

Edit:
As an example, if you take Ana, she will require quite the skill to win a duel against Tracer. She needs to land her projectiles (both the shot and the sleep dart) on a target that is zipping around to confuse her. Not an easy task.
Compare that to the self-aim of Moira and Brigitte or the logs of Kiriko.
Ana, while lethal if she lands her shots, is limited by the skill requirement. Most of the other healers are not.

[Krullervo-2736]

@anon13691246

Blizzard designed healers to be untouchable monsters that can singlehandedly defeat DPS if they dare venture close.

How did you get past the parental lock on the computer?

Comedy Gold.

Bravo.

[Krullervo-2736]

@anon13691246

Compare that to the self-aim of Moira

Moira doesn’t have auto-aim. Why keep boasting a thread where you have embarrassed yourself over and over.

Moiras weakness is… listen carefully… being shot in the face. Stand still. Stop moving and SHOOT HER. It’s NOT hard. It’s really really NOT.
She’s also weak to barriers, turrets, any constructs, beam weapons, melee weapons and fliers like Pharah.

PLEASE stop.

@anon13691246

Ana, while lethal if she lands her shots, is limited by the skill requirement.

Actually it’s really easy to duel tracer on Ana. You smash the anti nade on both of you. Wait for her to recall and sleep her when she comes back.

Please just stop.

This is so embarrassing.

I’m literally cringing for you.

[anon13691246]

@Krullervo-2736

Actually it’s really easy to duel tracer on Ana. You smash the anti nade on both of you. Wait for her to recall and sleep her when she comes back.

Im a Diamond Tracer main with my 2nd most hero played being Ana. I have more than 1000 hours on each hero, playing almost exclusively Competitive.
I have followed Kabaji and Dafran for years, so I also know higher level play than I play myself.

I don’t think I need your input at all on any of the topics you touched upon.

[NerfHEDSHOTs-3422]

This statement is somewhat true.

I’ve been in matches where the first engagement would last for minutes just because both sides refused to die thanks to supports being so strong.

Mostly due to Kiriko and Mercy having no healing downtime with constsnt healing uptime that requires very little management on their part.

And wouldn’t you know it. Every time it involves both heros or mirrormatches of the same hero.

[Pizzazz-1277]

Exactly, dps on here asking for support nerfs when all they need to do is hit their shots and they can easily kill a target even when it’s getting heals.there’s also the option of killing the support first but I guess it’s easier to come on the forums to get supports back to practice bot status.

[SENTINELJ-1471]

It’s called support not healer bro

[anon13691246]

@SENTINELJ-1471

It’s called support not healer

If you go outside and take a walk around the block, maybe you will have something to say when you come back.
Bro.

[Pizzazz-1277]

Try attacking the same target, so many times iv seen everyone on my team damaging a different target and complaining that nothing dies.