Ult gen stacking is an issue, IMO

This is an off the cuff thought process I’ve had for a while and I’m not quite technical enough to go into the deep details and numbers on it.
However as food for thought for devs and the community alike, I raise you this topic.

Some of the issues with the with a lot of the meta heroes at the moment, especially some of the more later hero releases (even though thats been years now), is that some heroes have multiple sources of ult generation that stack on top of each other, meaning their ult generation is insane.

The worst culprit for this is Baptiste, especially the launch version of Bap, not so much these days but it’s still the case.
In a composition like brawl, you can pretty much assume that after a first fight, the Baptiste on either side should have from 80% to full ultimate. In circumstantial situations this can happen on other heroes like Rein, however the Rein would have to do considerable more DPS to achieve that type of ult charge, without costing his own life or the teams, where as Bap does three things.
Shoots both sides of his weapon and amps heals. This provides 3 sources of ult generation in one go.
Echo is the same for this, you can land all stickies on a tank for example and shoot that tank. The initial sticky damage, the firing damage and the bubble explosion provide three instances of ult generation at the same time.
Moira was similar, she was heavily nerfed however and with recent patches she’s sort of been given some of this power back. The ability to throw an orb that passively gains ult charge on top of damage and healing interchangably meant on release she generated ult at insane rates. Currently, she’s in a good spot though.

Compare this to the other release supports, Zen - Lucio - Mercy who generally have a slightly harder time generating ultimates.
Zen needs to maintain good positioning, LOS of the team whilst provising healing and damage without dying.
Lucio only gains ult charge for healing and damage, however most people run Lucio for speed. Otherwise you would run any other support. He gains nothing for speeding except for ‘hopefully’ enabling the team to aggress on the enemies hard.
Mercy does gain a decent amount of ult charge, however this is generally isolated to one single target, like Zen.
Compare this to Bap and Moira who heal multiple people at once and are able to gain ult much faster. Not to mention generally the healing is the more consistent way of gaining ult over the damage boosting as that tends to rely on your team landing shots which again, you would rather run something else for most comps.
Brig also stacks damage with two other sources of HOT with pack and inspire. She generally has been nerfed a lot though and in a good place in regards to building Rally.
Ana I feel is fine personally, however she can sometimes feel a little more of a weaker choice, when you factor in immortality field. With her healing (outside of nade) generally being single target focus but more than other heroes, she fits into a comfortable middle ground for me.
This isn’t to remove the clear utlity that supports provide other than mass healing, however .
My suggestion and feedback to the devs and community is this:

Generally to gain some form of consistency amongst heroes and remove the reliance on building fast ultimate charges in OW, making it extremely ult dependant.
We should either have some form of soft cap on ult charge generation of multiple sources. Including other abilities such as Orisa ult, combined with other damage boosting. As damage = ult charge and all damage boosting stacks in OW.

OR

We address the specific troublesome heroes and make adjustments to some numbers. For example, if we remove ult charge from the initial impact of stickies then Echo will build ult less frequently but also will reward more accurate sticky placement. You can keep the ticking sounds as that’s a feel good element that provides a mental reward.

Baptiste is harder to do for me, it would require more numbers tweaking. Unless we remove the ability to hold down damage and healing together, although more niche in scenarios.

Anyway, this is my tired rambling after discussions with friends.
Wondered what people thought.

Cheers!

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A quick thought before I get into the meat, after the 20% ult charge nerf a while back it’s quite hard for the losing side of any fight to gain enough ult charge to push out a victory. Support ults are quite valuable in those scenarios.

Now for the topic at hand - Dealing damage as a support character doesn’t really give you enough ult charge to really do anything. Over the course of a single fight the majority of what you gain comes from Healing. From what I can tell the most I’ve gained from DPS in a fight is under 10%… unless I completely ignore my team, in which case we lose. lol

With Baptiste specifically I don’t find it hard to get his ult but it’s so niche and clunky that I can never find a good time to USE it.

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Absolutely, for clarity I’m only talking about support damage in as ‘a source’ to building ult charge rather than it being the primary method.

The issue I’m highlighting is that these things can be done stacking on top of each other.
DPS on average, generally deal more damage. However their ult gen is based on them dealing that damage where as some more recent supports (and echo tbh) have multiple ways of building ult gen.

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Ultimately it comes down to how fast they can get it. The more hybrid Heal/DPS heroes tend to get their charge slower overall even when making good use of both their healing and damage capabilities… however their ults tend to be on the weaker side.

Ana seems to get her ult the quickest, then Lucio and Bapt, followed by Moira and Zen, with Mercy and Brig coming up at the end.

They all seem pretty in line with everyone else in terms of when they get and are able to use their ult.

IIRC Echo had her ult charge nerf’d fairly recently, yeah?

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To some degree I disagree with the notion Ana is the fastest, the reason why Bap especially is generally pretty busted is because any competitive level of gameplay, his ult gen is insane.
I coach a team, I started a meme that was “just assume bap has ult after the first fight”. As weeks went by of scrims, I was scared to realise this was true. In a won team fight on a control map for example, Baps generally either have between 80% to full ultimate. The losing side generally could have from 50% to 80%. This is bonkers when you think about it. He outpaces all other roles and most heroes.

Echo and Moira was nerfed together, Moira has since had some buffs, so I’m not sure how that tallys up.
Echo is slower than before but it’s still consistently fast. My other issue I raised about damage boosting of any kind, removes any forms of nerfs like this.

I don’t know if a form of soft cap is possible, I feel like it’s not too out the range for Blizzard to do but it should be considered.

I think a really good case study of a DPS hero stacking ult charge is old Sombra, gaining ult charage from damage and healing from health packs meant EMP could be farmed every 30 seconds. The removal of this took away that part of Sombra’s power whilst she’s still fairly strong.
I feel something similar needs to happen with Echo but I’m not sure what, which is what gave me the idea for removing sticky impact ult charge.

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Ah, I’m just going on personal experience. With Ana and Bapt specifically I tend to see them get ult after 2 fights while Lucio and everyone else take 2+ to get their ult. I don’t think it has a lot to do with Bapt being able to dps as much as it does with his ability to AoE heal on demand. Maybe his healing burst ult gen needs to be pulled back.

Talking about Echo, specifically, her stickies are the primary way she gains ult charge yeah? (I don’t play her all that often).

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Yeah I think Ana is a good comfortable middle, meaning she defo builds ult much faster than heroes like Lucio, Zen etc.
Again, I don’t think Baps damage is the main issue, although anyone who is good with Baps aim can defo have that impact.
It’s how you can HOT a tank, shoot healing that tank which is two seperate instances of healing that build ult. He can do a bit of damage too and it builds mega fast.

Echos stickies are certainly the most consistent way to build ult faster, considering you can animation cancel the stickies and primary, shows how much of an issue it can be to have a hero who can apply multiple damage sources at once.
Most other DPS heroes have a secondary fire (M2) that is a utility ability and not a second form of damage. (Perhaps soldier does I guess)

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