Rocket jumping is fairly easy. I do mess it up quite often but that’s because I’m bad and I’m concentrating on other things. It gives a large advantage to those who know you can rocket jump but it’s not really that hard. It’s definatly harder to predict where the enemy will be then to rocket jump and just giving him the ability makes bastion more of an epic skillz charcter and less of a gamesense character and that takes away from his idenity a bit. If he has to wait to rocket jump you have the epic skillz and the gamesense needed, so you’ve made him better and more skilled without taking away his need for gamesense (I know gamesense is a skill but for the argument I’m reffering to them as different things). So now we have a somewhat cluncky but high skill requirement mobility tool for bastion. I don’t feel like repeating the kolor point again but I think its an important point.
I had feeling you just misworded it but I wanted to make sure.
Bastion is all about positioning and thinking where will the enemy be next. You need to predict when you will be overwhelmed and then retreat into recon mode. Tank mode will mean that you prediction can be much less accurate. With my idea you still have to have same amount of prediction but now you have more ways to surprise and ambush the enemy. Imagine if they push in only to be killed by a bastion on highground that they couldn’t see. Still useful but now it requires prediction and gamesense to use. Plus it would also be able to do more damage, say 150 instead of 100-120. This means you can one shot a hero who has taken a small bit of damage. Or tracer.
You can! Unfortunately, Bastion can’t reposition as fast as the enemy shields can with Orisa as the one exception. The enemy tank will simply react by moving their shield rather than let it get broken, if you take that approach in higher ranks.
In high rank games, they will swap to precision heroes and shoot the edge of Bastion’s hitbox without ever presenting a target for Bastion to shoot back at. The only time Bastion can work at present is when there is a strong shield in front of the Bastion, and his ideal friendly tank Orisa is no longer strong enough to do the job.
Bastion is simply not played in most high rank games. Movement is a huge part of gameplay and a moving faster than your opponent is a massive advantage, which is why Lucio has been almost permanently meta since the game’s launch and why speed was removed from Ana’s nanoboost.
Some people on these forums seemed to think that the shield nerf meant it was Bastion’s time to shine because Bastion is designed to be a shield-breaker… but the reality is that Bastion relies on strong shields more than any other hero in the game. He needs the protection, and he needs more durable enemy shields to justify bringing his sentry gun over a weapon with more precise applications.
I’ve even tired the most active bastion main on the fourms out, I feel proud.
Only thing is that with that shield bastion would just be able to be a 1v1. This is beyond winning any 1v1, he now doesn’t even have to be affected by one other than ammo loss. He’ll still be able to win the next one. I feel two consecutive 1v1s should at least come close to killing bastion and force him to reatreat with low health assuming he doens’t alot of healing inbetween them. It would just be less problematic to give him a 0.25 second shield which is unbreakable and on a cool down. A good bastion will still beat a regular hog but only if he reacts fast. And with ana, those some really good reactions needed to block a sleep dart.
You would have still hit a chunck off of rein’s shield hp and if it is sigma you’ll creat a very brief moment where a widow could kill someone on the enemy team. So it can still be useful but I definatly see your point of how it would be much less effective in higher ranks. Usually lower rank reins and sigmas have poor reaction times and I can kind of melt their shields. Swapping costs time so at the very least you’ve stalled them. Not great at all but I can see uses for it.
In most high ranked games? Don’t you mean basically all of them.
I was not one of the people who thought bastion would do better with worse shields.
Deal if he starts with zero ammo. Otherwise while it would be very skillful with the timings and everything but would still have the same probem of taking away pre existing skill which I just don’t think is neccessery. Or we could just make it that he can’t shoot for the first second or 1.5 seconds of tank mode. That would solve the problem too.
I think being stationary is just part of his whole concept… it’s like taking away Genji’s double jump or turb’s turret- not the same character.
The character is bad becase the game isnt built for it.
shields are too easy to break, there too many fast close range heroes, and instead of trying to play with spread and damage, they only touch the damage part most of the time…
Bastion can be amazing and was even played a lot in ow league finals. and was part of the counter team to goats.
The hero is not bad, but if doesnt have a lot of use in a normal game because of his design…
Bastion main uses as a character are:
hit scan
shield buster
tank killer
knockback immune character
positioning punisher
But even these roles he’s not good enough.
Everything he supposed to be good against counters him as well.
hit scan- so he suppose to counter fast heroes like Tracer, and far heroes like Pharah & Widow. He’s a big target so Pharah can damage him fairly easy, he’s weak to divers so tracer has an advantage as well & he has a damage fall off so he’s not a too good of a widow counter, sure he has an advantage and a big one but he cant really do much to her just like she cant do much to him.
shield buster- now after the shield nerfs this advantage becomes a disadvantage, everyone can destroy his protection and there’s no real use of a special hero to destroy shields… every heroes in the game is capeable of destroying shields just as good…
tank killer- could have been better in this role if not 1/2 of the tanks were counters to him or at least have some sort of tool to instant kill him.
Rein can charge,Hog can hook & D.va’s & Sigma’s time based shields were meant to fight targets like him. out of 8 tanks 1/2 of them has an advantage of some sort, not to mantion the other 4 combo well with the 4 that do have an advantage.
Orisa-hog/sigma
Rein-Zarya
D.va-Winston/Hammond
knockback immune character- unfortuntaly this part of his kit is not important enough in the game… When doomfist was concidered op I hoped to see more Bastion use since he’s totally immune to the hero and yet Bastion’s pick rate only got lower…
positioning punisher- he suppose to be effective especially in medium to close range where he’s strongest, but the heroes in this range mostlycounter him…
Sure Bastion’s mobility might be a part of this problem since it’s easy to spot and track him. but most times this problem only come to use when the heroes pick a dive team, and then he’s already weak…
In order to buff bastion he needs to be actually effective on more enemies,either by making his kit more clear or adding more things he can fight other than doomfist & Brigitte…
He’s a fine hero but really needs more things to counter.
Rein forces you to get the highground but other than that he isn’t incredible against bastion. You can outrange hog although he is definatly a good counter to bastion. Sigma sucks but you transform into recon and dodge him. Bastion melts D.va on her own but with a group or just 1 other she will destroy bastion. Bastion is still a pretty decent tank buster, not a great one but a decent one.
I find bastion is quite effective at longish ranges, not great but he can still do decent dps with his reduced spread.
Guess you’re right in most of that although I still think you don’t see the true potential in D.va and Sigma. Their shield makes it so Bastion is useless for couple of seconds which many no sound enough but in this time he just because a big target and can be killed easily, not only that but Sigma gains a large amount from that while D.va can use her micro missiles to get free damage.
The heroes by themselves are not amazing counters but if you combine a team around them they become a HUGE Bastion’s counters.
True, but he’s not really a hero you would want in any other situation compared to others, snipers can do the same thing from distance with much more mobility and accurecy. Not to mantion not many heroes are long range heroes and the ones that are, usually paired up with close range heroes in order to get the most value from the range without giving the enemies option to come close.
In the long range he’s decent, maybe less…
in the close range he’s getting countered
the only real place he’s good is in the medium range.
The split of heroes in the game is:
at close range you’ve got:
Reinhardt,D.va,Winston,Zarya,Hammond,Doomfist,Genji,Mei,Reaper,Sombra,Symmetra,Tracer,Brigitte,Lucio
In Medium range you’ve got:
Roadhog,Sigma,ashe,Bastion,Hanzo,Junkrat,Soldier:76,Mccree,Torbjorn,Baptiste,Mercy, Moira
in long range you’ve got:
Orisa,Echo,Phrah,Widow,Zen,Ana
By this split we’re left in medium range with:
Roadhog,Sigma,ashe,Bastion,Hanzo,Junkrat,Soldier:76,Mccree,Torbjorn,Baptiste,Mercy, Moira
Removing hard counters from the list and we’re left with:
Roadhog,Sigma,ashe,Bastion,Soldier:76,Mccree,Torbjorn,Baptiste,Mercy, Moira
and after seeing this list it’s pretty obvious why no one plays the poor omnic, the things he counters are either concdiered weak already or have better counters.
To honest I guess you’re right and that’s really the biggest problem with the hero maybe (except for being less fun compared to others)… the things that counter him counter him too hard.
Usually heroes with too hard counters count as too weak, look at soldier:76 before the shields nerf…
I believe increasing the amount of armor/iron clad it has and decreasing the cast time of transportion might be enough to fix it.
another thing that can be nice is adding a 2nd tank that will work bett w/ the hero. just like Mercy,baptiste/briggte and Orisa help the hero w/ his weaknesess and enhence its strengths… Sure 2nd shield like Rein’s or Sigma’s is nice but I believe the focus should be about a different protection utility and not shields all the time.
I was reffering to sigma’s rock when I said you can dodge him if you go into recon mode but thinking about it you can just run away from him in recon mode if he comes at you alone. Sure with others they might destroy you but alone Sigma can only force you retreat which is good but it isn’t quite the same as death. D.va alone can distract you I guess but usually she’s a free kill. With others they are very deadly but alone sigma is a soft counter and D.va is someone you counter.
Lucio can work at medium range, he has large projectiles. Soldier 76 can work at mid to long range by burst firing.
I find bastion very fun to play, his damage is great. And while I love high mobility characters standing still just feels natural. Maybe its because I’ve played bastion for so long but it feels natural to stand still with him.
We had more ironclad and it made him OP because it stacked with healing. Although it probably wasn’t that OP, as it was only out for a few weeks so no one new how to counter him. You could give him 20% iron clad in recon mode and that would stop others from countering him as hard. Or just lower his ammo and lower his spread so he can be better at longer ranges while also not being oppressive. Or lower his ammo, maybe remove iron clad and then give him head shots (maybe 1.5x headshots) so he can be nightmare for tanks.
I really think you should look at the heroes as a 6v6 instead of a 1v1 sitaution…
You’re right but in a 6v6 situation countering changes from killing to a value game.
for example Sigma technicly is not a widow counter, he cant reach her or damage her but she can reach him… in a 6v6 Sigma becomes a super good widow counter he can use his shield to deny any value from her.
Same here- time based shields are extremly valuable when fighting Bastion.
I did the math
The Math:
the numbers for the maximum damage are, if bastion does 15 damage per pallet and shoot 30 pullets per second
to kill Sigma: 2 seconds to destroy his shield+ 2 seconds kinetic grasp+1.8sec to kill Sigma himself= 5.8 sec
to kill Reinhardt: 3.6 sec to destroy shield+1.2 to kill Rein himself=4.8
to kill Orisa=1.3 sec to destroy shield+ 2.5 sec to kill oria w/ fortify=3.8
to kill D.va=2 sec deffense matrix+1.3 secto kill D.va+0.3 to kill mini d.va if hit all bullets= 3.6 sec
to kill Hammond= 1.3 sec to kill Hammond himself +1.6 sec shields= 2.9 sec
to kill Winston= 1.6 to destroy shield+1.1sec to kill Winston himself= 2.7 sec
to kill roadhog= 1.3 sec to kill hog himself +0.7sec take a breather= 2 seconds
to kill zayra=(0.4 sec to destroy a bubble)*2+0.9 to kill zarya herself= 1.7 sec
but if to conclude the results.
1#Sigma with 5.8seconds of survivablity
2#Reinhardt with 4.8 seconds of survivability
3#Orisa with 3.8 of survivabillity
4#D.va with 3.6 seconds of survivabillity
Showing sigma is the best tank option to fight Bastion in terms of survivabillity.
but for D.va? While she’s not in highest place she’s the best best tank for a Bastion hunt, she’s the 1st in this list that can reach Bastion, deal damage to him while absorving damage & her passive eject! is fairly hard to hit, unlike all other tanks that Bastion has a really good chance to hit all his pallets, D.va’s passive makes it easier for her to dodge.
So even if you don’t count them as Bastion counters. you cant deny the fact both are the best options against him… (Maybe I understood you incorrectly when you talked about them as counters)
and in terms of countering D.va should take 1st place because only she can reach him and really deal any damage… both orisa and Rein cant do anything against a high ground Bastion & Sigma is only effective if he can flank or has its ultimate.
I think we need to define a range in order to make it more accurate in term of categorizing.
in my opinion at least a range is split by:
close- 15 meters range or less of effectiveness. to utilize their kit to the maximum amount of value they need the enemy to come close to them. heroes in this category will usually have some sort of abillity to either help to get close fast or block damage in order to get closer.
medium- between 15 meters to 50 meters. heroes in this category will have a medium range weapons. usually have some sort of abillity to deal with close/long range to protect themselves since they are not fast enough to close the gap too fast against long range but come closer to the close range heroes but their main focus is the medium range.
long range-prefer keeping their distant, don’t have a damage fall off at all and work best when letting do what ever they want. will usually have an abillity to either deal with close range heroes or gain distance from close range.
Because of that I think Lucio is a close range, his boop is a close range projectile for sure, and especially when combining with his speed boost, it can be difficult hitting shots from a distant, even if it’s a small one. besides his weapon doesnt do much to shields and because of that he would usually prefer the closer range.
As for soldier, he has a damage fall off so I don’t think long range would work that well for him… also his biotic field, helix rockets and sprint works super well with a brawly team compositiong that likes the medium range, hit close but not too close. So while he can be effective in the long range it’s like running Genji from distant, he can still do some damage but it’s not really recomanded playing him that far…
To be honest I like him as well, he was the 2nd hero I bought golden gun fur, my first game+potg+10 men vote was with him in route 66.
The hero is great but he’s playstyle doesnt really bring a lot of players. most players especially from the dps class like head shots, mobility, crazy abillities.
and while the hero concept is great it fits more with the tank category in terms of playstyle (slow and less accurage). don’t get me wrong, he can not be a tank and will never be a tank outside of his ultimate…
especially concidering the fact he’s the king of damage and hog is already the anti-tank tank.
But he’s feeling to most players less exciting, especially now when Orisa is F tier and Bastion can not really be played in most cases…
can be nice.
If I may I want to myself think about the character and try finiding a solution that fits the best with the playstlye and ranges.
1 crazy idea I have is slightly increasing his spread and buffing his damage. so already a better damage to shields, will make a nightmare to shields, but time based shields like Sigma’s and D.va’s will be better which is a great addition to this game, shields already controll the tank category so making another protection way better is already amazing. the problem with this change is that it might be too much of a buff to Genji who will just shred through him when defflecting…
1 more idea I had for a tank counter but i’m not sure if Bastion deserves it is damage based on % just like Sigma’s ultimate. if every pallet Bastion shoot will do 1.5% damage, every tank will get deleted much faster but dps heroes will be much more vurnable. once again a solution that will buff his already strong counters…
last idea that can be good is letting Bastion get another abillity.
1 pretty weird idea I have for the character is using Ganymede just like Mei uses snowball in her ultimate.
ganymede will act like a small Symmetra turret that follows bastion in a 8 meters radius when summoned, he will only have 20hp and will choose one enemy character to attack. he goes past everything except for a bubble, dealing 30dps.
he’s a small moving bird so some heroes like Genji might struggle hitting it.
it will be Bastion’s 2nd abillity , it’s active for 6 seconds if not getting killed- cool down of 10 seconds that starts after the abillity is over/dead.
You can always just buff Bastion’s damage slightly but where’s the fun in that…
My point was they can’t just go up to you and 1v1 you without any help from there team. There’s a big difference between D.va travelling alone to kill you and D.va travelling with less mobile heroes to kill you. With one she can get you highground, with another you have to be on low ground. Sure, she could travel with high mobility heroes, like genji and winston but then thats Bastion being countered by a well cordinated team, not just the D.va. Best D.va can do on her own if you on highground is distract you and that could allow her team to take you out, but they’d also be fighting your team and shooting you would in turn distract them. Plus, if you heal while D.va uses her matrix then you will finish the fight with more than half health and she would of used her only escape mechanism to fight you. I wouldn’t really call that a counter, she trades her life for a distraction. I guess if the enemy team’s shield tank is rein than D.va would be more effective as the shield war wouldn’t matter as much since rein can charge to take out the enemy main tank, or even just a support, and so the enemy team focussing on you would be easier and so they could easily kill you with D.va’s help. Sigma is worse because of his rock, his annoying rock. The only way to stop it is either with a shield or by hiding your hitbox so the rock will connect with the object infront of you first. Still, if Sigma is good enough he can even make hit you from above so you’ll still be knocked out of sentry mode. But thankfully Sigma can’t fly without his ult so on high ground you are safe from him and his team. And if they go to the highground you’ll have plenty of time to get back down. All of this is assuming Bastion has no shield protecting him and that he has set behind his team, so he is on his own. If Bastion has a shield it gets easier for Sigma and D.va, Sigma and D.va can use his ult and combined with an attack by the team your finished. D.va and Sigma can also allow there team to get close to you, if team is infront of you only super mobile heros like Winston, D.va and Genji will be able to get to you if your on highground, but that isn’t the case if your team is with you. There counters but there not hard counters, roadhog is better as his mere pressence causes Bastion to be forced to play further away, or right behind his shields. And Ana is worse then hog, she’s nightmare to deal with as Bastion, she forces you behind your shields with zero other options. Also storm arrow is pretty close to a delete Bastion button as well.
50m seems like long range to me to be honest but I guess it is your decision. Still not sure about lucio, he can engage people at mid range and win the fight. I guess he’s still better at close range though. So are you telling me that Genji isn’t a sniper!? So that’s what I’ve been doing wrong! Thanks you so much man! (That was a joke please actually think I play Genji like a sniper).
I don’t think there is a problem with a hero that only a small percentage of the player base will enjoy, the problem is when that hero forces others to play in a simmilar playstyle, which Bastion does as he is very vunerable and needs protection.
I think Bastion can be a tank, it wouldn’t be a great rework for him and there are better ones but it could be done well with out erasing Bastion’s character. He’d be like Roadhog, except instead of his hook scaring everybody off it would be his dps. No one would want to go near the main tank because it would put them in Bastion’s range. Like I said I’m not a massive fan of it but it could work.
Hog peforms his job as tank well, he makes a safe space for his main tank, usually Orisa. Hog is a good tank buster so I guess that would make tank Bastion and Hog pretty simmilar.
With larger spread bastion would be easier to aim with. Not very good especially since some people in low ranks have trouble with him (I don’t but I’ve seen a few people get shreked by me before) so that would be bad. It would also worsen the general pereception of bastion main even more so not very good. Genji shredding him isn’t a problem, it should mean that bastion would have to have a faster reaction time or be better at baiting out deflect. Still against the idea though.
Just give him lower spread (2 degrees to 1.5 degrees instead of 3 degrees to 2 degrees) and 1.5x headshots instead and lower his ammo as compensation. His spread will still be too big to get enough headshots of to do a decent amount of damage against dps and support heroes unless they are pretty close to you (but then it would be really hard to aim as the closer people are to bastion the harder it is to aim with him) but a really good bastion would be able consistently get headshots against a tank, so they’d die faster. Not ridiculously faster or anything but faster.
I think we should restrain from bastion another ability except maybe a shield. Bastion was never meant to be about utility, he’s a simplistic hero and that is one of the things that makes him unique. We can add a new ablility first but I think we should try other things first.
I’d be fine with a reactive 0.25 second shield but other than that it seems like it would make bastion very annoying to fight, he can damage you but you can’t damage him? Hardly seems fair.
I guess bastion is a really ironic hero.
both by range and playstyle he’s countering himself (medium range+team work)
Maybe, but even so you need to concider the fact the range is probably much shorter: soldier & Bastion have their spread, mccree’s flashbang+roll is useless in the long range and it’s a very strong part of his kit and the rest cant reach so far or have travel time making it so reaching the enemies in the long range is super hard.
But then what kind of protection he will provide?
Hog is more on interruption,extra health and damage resistance.
Bastion has the 2 last parts but it’s not enough…
It’s also quite problematic concidering the fact hog is based on high damage but pay with size and lack of protection.
With Bastion because of his so massive size his protection needs to be minimal as possible, you cant nerf his damage because then you loose the character and you cant put him as it…
A lot of people want this idea but the concept behind it doesnt fit the character enough. Symmetra was already very offensive support so moving her category kept the main part of her kit which is the turrets while also letting the teleport,shield and shields (hp) come with her. with Bastion his all kit is dpsy.
If you make him Roadhog he doesnt bring enough uniqe value.
High dmg but higher spread.
Bastion is already a positioning punisher.
Dps might be easier to hit now but the damage they recieve is much lower.
I think it’s kind of a problamtic thing to talk about since you can compare him to widow… if a good widow is in a low level game she will carry as well.
Sure Bastion requires less skills, but you need to know to aim at the enemy tanks first and to know which tank is the best option.
Just like you can carry with Winston by knowing that the support heroes are your target and not the tanks.
Not saying your wrong, I just think this change will make him better at his job and especially now with the shields nerfs, it will not make him op. you can always just destroy the shield from distance with basiclly any hero in the game.
Possible, but my problem with this change is knowing where to aim excacly… You could argue and say Reaper and Roadhog have the problem but they already need to get too close so they will hit everything no matter what they try, with Bastion some heroes are better to headshot while others better to body shot. adding this change might be problematic for players to understand what is better in a lot of times, also take in mind it will make him a worse shield destroyer, unfortunatly in the current state of the game it really doesnt make any different but I want to belive they will buff Orisa’s shield at the ened and then it will be important once more.
Another thing which again don’t know if to count as a bad or good thing, Hammond is more effective now.
Agree. While I do want to see his bird doing a little bit more than just sitting it doesnt fit the character…
Intresting factor I wanna see in the game is adding more tanks based on different protection machanics.
we have 4 different shields. and while they all have different use from each other, I still want to see more ways to protect your team.
It might be the buff Bastion need…
Just for example, adding a fire wall hero. decrease damage from pallets that go through the flames and damage everyone touching the fire. Extremley efficient hero against close range that Bastion will love to duel.
There are soooo many different ideas that can help the game in general and might be the buff Bastion needs, or is it nerf to all other tank counters? who knows… either way it worth experimenting!