It’s because for the past few years, poor support design and balance have conditioned players to believe that a support’s job is to press one button to freely bail allies out from their own mistakes. Now that Blizzard are finally doing a great job at designing traditional offensive supports, some players are being faced with the harsh truth that they actually need to learn how to play a PVP FPS.
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And yet the bad Genjis will still cry and demand nerfs.
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Illari does have falloff damage, and does not have a better ultimate than Ashe.
While Illari does convey a very “aggressive”, and very “Damage-role oriented” hero design, they’re still support and healing is still their primary job.
This is false.
Support-role was originally designed to be fairly strong, if not stronger than a typical damage-role hero. This isn’t really up for debate, it is just fact. Those templates haven’t really changed since OW1, but they still can’t solo a Tank.
There are no hybrids in this game, and have never been any. There’s just a range of heroes within each role.
Illari’s healing numbers have practically reverted back to their old numbers; but the Pylon’s health, cooldown time and deployment time have all been adjusted.
His “prime” wasn’t much better, either.
Lucio and Zenyatta did a pretty good job of this, originally.
False.
Yes; if you play him properly.
One bullet from Soldier is less than Mercy’s healing rate.
It’s just another false equivalency.
Blizzard already knew that no matter what they did to make the role more appealing, it wasn’t going to bring in existing players to play the role. They’ve done this before with Death Knight in WoW, Monk and Demon Hunter, Junker Queen, and Ramattra in Overwatch didn’t bring in new players playing Tanks, either.
In fact the game is specifically balanced around this popularity curve; they knew no one would play Tanks and originally balanced Overwatch 1 around only having one tank per team. That’s also why GOATS happened.
Juno does more damage per shot and per second than Illari does. Also, unlike Illari, Juno has more offensive abilities that Illari.
Moreover, Moira has no ammo limit to RMB, and can RMB infinitely in the same way that Mercy can heal infinitely.
Pretty much. Even FF14’s attempt to lure more players to the Tank role didn’t work with Gunbreaker and Dark Knight.
I’m actually curious to see what new Tank and Healer jobs will be in the next expansion two years from now.
Yeah. Lucio, at one time, was doing more damage per second than even Genji did, and had better burst. Today, Lucio is now doing more damage per second than Genji while also doing similar burst-damage, but also has less health now.
Not really true.
Ana was a major component to the Support meta game, and Ana was a staple for high level play.
Healing is strong enough, traditionally, and historically, to withstand burst-damage; after all, every Support has a secondary healing ability designed to do that, whether it comes from an ultimate or through a cooldown.
Not quite true.
GOATS happened because spacial control for the game is extremely important and Tanks do that better than anyone else. Tanks also ignore other Tank defenses whereas Damage-role do not.
Supports became an important part because Support’s ability to provide buffs and healing is more impactful on Tanks than anyone else. It’s easier to heal a Tank with 500 health than it is to heal a Damage-role with 200 health. Tanks are practically immune to one-shot kills, after all, so that was obvious.
Boosting or buffing Tanks was also more impactful than boosting a Damage-role hero. Take Genji or Reinhardt with Nanoboost, for example. 180 damage Dragonblades, or 120 damage Reinhardt swings. 400 effective health, or 1,000 effective health. Tie that with Earthshatter and you have a hero that’s better at Dragonblade than the hero with Dragonblade.
Then there’s the little things, 75 damage Swiftstrikes with Nanoboost, or 150 damage Firestrikes with Nanoboost. Which one is better? Nanoboost lasts 8 seconds, Dragonblade lasts 6. Who makes better use of it? The guy with the always on “dragonblade”.
Then there’s Mercy and Soldier vs. Winston. Soldier needs to aim to make use of Damage-boost. Winston doesn’t need to aim, and he has a barrier than will prevent 600 damage from hitting him, allowing for maximum up time on Damage-boosting. It’s just easier to get more benefit from Damage-boost from Winston than anyone else.
BOB is just Tactical Visor with added bulk and limited area effect. He gets some “perks” from the Tank-role to prevent how it easy to control him; but he’s not really that much different from Torbjob’s old level 3 turret ultimate.
Additionally, it’ll take longer for each shot from Illari than it would from Ashe to make the kill; though Ashe’s shots will be harder to hit, relatively speaking, than Illari’s. (Scope helps tremendously here).
More or less correct.
No, that’s actually wrong.
The problem is defense, and how many roles are dedicated to that defense. When Overwatch originally allowed you to stack 4 heroes to dedicate specifically to defensive power, in addition to providing those same heroes with impressive or comparable damage power, AND healing and utility, there’s was no reason to include a Damage-role hero. The role was made completely irrelevant by Blizzard’s own design templates.
The idea of dedicating a single role to doing damage, and only damage, while providing everything else to the other roles is the core problem. No game does this; not EverQuest, not FF14, not even WoW, or any single-player RPG or competitive team game.
Blizzard corrected this problem by mandating that every role is required on any team, but their templates have not changed. Venture, the last released Damage-role hero before Sojourn, has no defining utility or supportive ability; their only strong point is doing lots of damage. But their damage from Drill Dash still pales in comparison to Reinhardt’s 120 damage Firestrikes, of which he gets two charges at 6 seconds each, to Venture’s 8 second cooldown of 80 on a single target.
Tell me you’re bronze without telling me you’re bronze.
Seriously though, if Moira is 1v2ing anyone after that health nerf, I don’t even know what to tell you.
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She does
that goes way less far and does melee dmg at best
actually true
that does something completely different, and is comparable to other, more similar dps ults like Riptire or maybe Death Blossom, with its tradoffs being that it can be cleansed and doesn’t kill immediately.
Damage=/=Kill capacity. skill, damage, target priority, ability use and mechanics = skill capacity
Sometimes, to save a teammate it is faster to kill their attacker than to try and sustain them. I don’t think i’ve ever seen a single on of these examples occur in a match, except maybe the moira thing because people are too slow at turning around and get tickled to death. Moira is not difficult to kill, especially with 225hp, if there are seriously moira’s consistently 1v2ing dps, you have to be in like bronze 6 or something.
Zen is like the support whose primary objective is damage
I find them completely fine, and i don’t main them, although considering every support but mercy does damage, i’m not even sure which supports you’re counting. I don’t struggle to 1v1 supports when i play dps, and when i lose to them, it’s because i made a mistake and they didn’t.
Support lost their main protector, the second tank, in the shift to 5v5. This creates a need for either: More Mobility (nobody likes that) Invulnerabilities (nobody likes those) or More Damage to allow them their survivability. The reason some supports have comparable damage to dps is because their dps is used in the downtime between healing or providing utility. If a support is able to carry a game by not healing much and relying on their mechanical skill and kill capacity to win a game, they deserve that win for their skill just like any other role does.
TLDR(because i know this is a LONG read💀 my bad) skill issue.
You’re right it is a problem, a you problem. Start hopping into aim training custom games man
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I just never see Illari as a real threat.
Her shots can be accurate, but the fire rate is just sooooo slow.
Her power, IMHO, is in a carefully placed pillon. Not her dps output.
If I die because of her, it’s not because she shot me, it’s because someone on her team was sustained by her healing. Again, IMHE. Your mileage clearly varies.
Her ultimate is hit or miss too, IMHO. If I play correctly, there is always some kind of cover or corner to get behind/around to be safe(r).
I’d much rather face her than Ashe. And Bob never misses if he gets his sites on me (and he has a cute hat).
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The only thing you’re correct about here is Triple Tank. And that wasn’t a “supports” problem. That was one ability on ONE character (Biotic Grenade) problem.
GOATS, however, consisted of the three lowest-sustain Supports in the game: Brig 1.5, Zen and Lucio. Sure, it had sustain, but not in way you’re claiming. The healing was supplemental to the damage mitigation that Rein (or Winston), Zarya and D.Va provided. It wasn’t that healing was out-sustaining damage…it was sustaining what little damage got through.
You’re also flat out wrong about healing “causing GOATS”. The team that created it literally did it to win against Widow without a mirror in a meta were mirror Widow was mandatory.
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Why you lying? she has a 30m falloff range, does less crit damage and shoots slower.
Pylon on the other hand… yeah that thing is broken.
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And that’s why I am not playing this game for a while, as damage is boring for me.
Then supports eventually not healing is expected outcome. Like Battlefield medics, that mostly used medkits for themselves and otherwise acted indistinguishable from regular infantry.
Because of burst damage. Healing doesn’t counter instant kills, so, you stack up tanks, who do not have such glaring weakness.
It’s practically only functional defense against “too good” enemy with burst damage, especially once moth got destroyed. Wasn’t an issue before or during moth, since multiple resurrects allowed to effectively counteract it, without requiring to stack up tanks.
If we look at supports used during GOATS - basically all of them had anti-burst abilities/ults. Sound barrier, bonus armor from Brig, both are effective at neutralising burst damage, both add extra health to negate burst.
Why are you acting like every hero in this game isn’t capable of winning a 1vs2 in the right hands? It’s been like this forever.
No, you don’t need an incredible play at all times. All it takes is the right conditions to not die to a solo Ult. When you have enough experience playing the game and reading the behavior’s of your opponents, there’s times you can See the intentions of a player waiting to use their Ult (even in a 1v1 engagement).
this is true, if you put a good player agianst 2 mid players, the good one should win
but with Moira, its vis versa
2 good players often cannot beat 1 mid Moira.
even if they can, Moira is still the 1v1 queen. Like no hero in this game is better at 1v1ing than her. She has everything you need. Insane mobility, lock on beam, life steal, and if she does get low, she can use her healing orb or damaging orb to finish.
like… does no one see the issue???
that’s all good
but even a Genji, whom bap had no knowledge of, can solo ULT him and lose.
tho maybe that’s not fair cause blade is one of the worst ults in the game, so like… well actually most DPS ults actually suck. Bap can pretty much beat every single one. Which is beyond stupid.
The skill issue? Yes, we all see it.
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Calling cap on this. Moira has some of the lowest TTK in the entire game. It takes her a bare minimum of 2.17 secs to kill a 250 HP character and 1.96 secs to kill a 225 HP one, and that’s if she throws a perfect orb and uses right-click the entire time. Meanwhile, a bodyshot-only Soldier has a TTK of 1.46 secs on a Moira, and that’s including Moira’s self-heal and assuming Soldier never uses Rockets. If we add a second DPS to this fight (let’s say, oh, Cassidy), even if Cassidy only hits bodyshots the entire fight, he still has a TTK of 1.75 secs.
Soldier and Cassidy together should kill Moira in less than half a second.
I used DPS characters in my example, but this goes for most Support as well, except maybe a Juno/Mercy combo. And even then, both of them still outdamage Moira.
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But that’s not true…
Only every Tank, the majority of DPS, Bap, Zen, Ana, and Kiri
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Which is why actually nerfing healing numbers instead of situationally nerfing healing with a passive would be better.
Burst heals became more of a problem the moment supports were given a self heal passive. But even before that the burst heal was an issue.
While burst damage cuts through sustain heals, the burst damage had to be buffed immensly to kill enemies before those powerful burst heals are used.
If they nerf pylon again might as well switch her to the dps role and increase her fire rate. Because shes a poo support.
If they nerf healing they would HAVE TO NERF DAMAGE as well. Or everything dies in seconds and no one will play support.
Oh they’ll play Support, but it’ll be DPS or utility Support only.
That’s exactly what happens every time healing gets nerfed into the ground. Once healing goes below a certain threshold, trying to sustain becomes pointless, so the more efficient way to win is to pick Zen, Mercy, Lucio or some other support that helps you kill things faster.
And then Tank players start asking why they explode every time they peek a corner.
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Exactly. And then they could nerf healthbars as well.