🤔 What is Symmetra's Core Identity and How to Buff her Accordingly

General Discussion
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youtube com/watch?v=ptlj1xYuQc4 tl;dw can’t stand in the same space as a turret, so they can push you up slightly

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Correct why I think she needs sentries with much higher hp and low dps. That can make any body trying to camp somewhere sym already marked very Uncomfortable. If that is too strong I suggest her ult should buff damage instead of giving shields and this also increase dps of sentries. But Buildable ult itself is somewhat weak compared to Torbs ult which can be used actively

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The way I see Symmetra is “shield support meets builder”. Like a Support version of Junkrat or Torbjorn.

Where they make map geography dangerous for the enemy, Symmetra fortifies areas for her allies.

Although this does include some damage (e.g. turrets), it is also present in her ultimates, the physical location of which are key.

Her Photon Projector also helps with this, as the primary fire makes her fearsome in close quarters, and the secondary fire is great for spamming from her chosen area onto the objective.

And that’s why this rework scares me, because for the most part I think she does her job very well. Sure you could add some stuff (she still has no passive for example), but nothing in her kit is actually bad beyond unfair cooldowns.

What I really think Sym needs is:

-Photon barrier on 6 second cooldown

-A passive to increase the rate of shield regen from 3 to 1 seconds out of combat for herself and all allies within 50 meters of Sym

-When an ally stays out of the shield gen’s range for longer than 5 seconds, they gain 75 decaying shield health, decaying at a rate of 10 shields lost per second.

-The glove she builds sentries with becomes a second gun, which can build both the sentries and teleporters. To make it balance, you could have the sentries and TP use the same resource, using the sentries to charge the tp. So for example, if you have six sentries in reserve, you could choose to use all those sentries to make a 6 charge TP, or only 3 to make a 3 charge tp, with 3 left. 30 second cooldown on tp creation.

-Teleporter max. charges increased to 10

-SG shields increased to 100

-New ultimate after tp is moved onto regular ability, something similar to molten core e.g. increases her shielding for herself and allies massively, removes slow and cast time on turret/tp creation, and increases her fire rate.

-With her buildables on a second gun, her SHIFT is free for a new abilities. Personally, I think this should be mobility ability, like a self-teleporter, or the Photon Bridge from the comics. Especially if it gives vertical mobility (she needs vertical a lot more than horizontal).

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I actually addressed most of these points, some of which I also stated and you also stated. I stated my point, then the reason for said point, several of which you agreed with me.

Melee is applied one target at a time, the arc does not apply it all at once; But when it contacts, that is why you would still get bogged down by semantics; 10m is mid range, anything below that is close range not melee. I agree that she should not get into this range, but it still only describes its feel. That shows in game as those at the end point of reins swing do not receive damage if he dies before contact. All are single target, the swing changes how that single target applies, but not the single application at a time.

My flamethrower point subverts the problem of range by stating close quarters. I agree they should not touch her weapon at all. Funny, I felt like it was more akin to a welder/torch combo. It feels like it to me, that is all I was saying.

I said it punishes you for using it by not giving you more ult charge. Just like Hanzo arrow is good in power, but bad design. Design being bad does equate to being low in power. I explained it, means it either is overpowering or useless; bad design, good power. It will win you the game, or be effectively useless. You brought it up why I stated it punishes you for using it. Single charge is punishing, now if she could deconstruct it without leaving I would be fine, your version says go back to said location to do so. It pulls her away again, she should be with her team more.

I have yet to see any Mei in the megathread, by pros, or mains call her a tank. Otherwise I don’t think this is true on that ground alone. If she is all three she was only intended to be a defense/support hybrid, which means she should lose the tank aspect in the first place. Give her another support aspect, or defense aspect. No where has overwatch stated that barriers are tank only. I have yet to hear anyone state such, except here.

You are still getting bogged down on semantics with the melee aspect. I am suggesting that you can avoid this issue by just stating she is close range and should continue to be. Yet, instead you are still getting bogged down in it. She needs love, I agree; but we are not getting anywhere stating she is melee, I followed several of your posts and it constant reinforcement that you should be less concerned with it.

Her primary is not active power, it requires little to no aim. It more concerns with your positioning which is passive in application. Simple maths: 3 passive, 2 active. Why are you being hostile, it is not constructive for you.

This is an interesting notion of conclusion when it comes to win rate, but I think it is wrong based on how other games discuss and utilize the metric. Win rate alone only determines win rates, pick rate alone only determines pick rate; pick rate in relation to win rate gets us a means to determine anything at this point. In not just this game, but in others as well; LoL and DoTA use this metric to determine when a champ is broken.

I explained that mains do know how to use her outside perceived niche cases, mains also generally have higher win rates with their champs, with this number fluctuating based on other factors. This is shown by most games and this one as well, I don’t know how to explain this further.

Pick rate alone means nothing except how many play said champ, win rate alone only shows how much that champ wins; win rate/pick rate shows us niche, power issues, difficulties etc. Mercy for instance was showing gains in both departments, not just pick rate, and not just win rate; hence nerfs. I don’t think you know how to read game analytics either. I addressed this as well by bringing up both, attacking one does not reduce my claim. In fact stating you know how to use her kit in more situations still supports it.

I think you need to back up and read the whole thing as it was intended. Why are you being hostile, because half of what you attacked was legit addressed right after. I main her too, but these responses prove that you are more concerned with toxicity. We already get a lot, I don’t need it from you; a fellow main. I will not respond to you anymore, and you lost creditability from me.

1 Like
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You forgot to say she:

  • Is indian

  • Works for vishkar

  • Has autism

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Sym 2.0 already is viable.

Brakes,
Rein is 5m. Brigitte is 6m. Sym is 7m.

“very close range” in an FPS is just Melee. That’s what Rein, Brigitte, Sym and Genji in his Ult do.

If Symmetra is ever buffed to OP levels, then her range should be brought back down to 5m.

What does it mean to be “built to have tanking capability”?

She has Photon Barrier now, which is a tanking ability, and it’s a great Offensive addition to her kit. Let’s improve it.

Not really. What gives her problems is the weaknesses of Sentries and Photon Barrier, which can be fixed with the suggestions I provided.

Sentry Turrets, Barrier and Ult is not enough supporting?

This is why I keep hammering on the point that she is a Melee hero.

She does not need any range increase on her Primary, she does not need “accuracy requirements”, anymore than Rein needs increased range and accuracy requirements.

It’s only awkward if you misunderstand its purpose as a zoning projectile and try to use it for a different purpose e.g. to kill enemies.

Now you can kill enemies with it, but that’s not its primary purpose.

I don’t know how useful an ability that only provides Ramps can be.

Mei wall is useful as a Ramp but it becomes a good ability because it also contains -Tanking, Peeling and Area Control in it to make it really good.

So a Ramp just by itself seems meh.

As for an auto-regenerating fixed barrier, that pushes Symmetra into a defense-only hero.

I like Photon Barrier because it allows for more aggressive, more offensive plays.

I like Photon Barrier because it allows me to protect the front line while I am all the way in the back, behind everyone, On-the Go.

I like Photon Barrier because it is really good at shutting down certain Ults and Sniper sight lines.

So I don’t think stationary shield can fulfill that role, not to mention it is an Orisa-barrier clone.

Hawai,
I think their HP and DPs is fine where they are at. But how much Hp and DPS are you proposing here?

I would say Torbjorn is already Support. He is the long-range version of Symmetra.

Yea exactly. A lot of people do not get this, but you do. Symmetra is viable already! Forcing another rework on this hero is just misguided imo.

All she needs is minor things.

See my thoughts above about Ramp/Bridge ability.

Mouse,
Mid range is at 20-30m. Good example of a Mid-range hero is Soldier.

Close range is at 10-20m. Good example of Close range heroes are Reaper and Tracer.

Anything less than 10 is Melee. Good example of Melee is Rein, Brigitte, Sym and Genji Ult.

I am stressing this point because people suggest that her Primary be changed to be long range. It is completely misguided to suggest that type of change for a Melee hero.

So I am gona be like parrot and keep repeating Melee, Melee, Melee, until everyone understands this is a Melee hero and that Melee heroes should not get range buffs to their Melee attack because they are MELEE!

:laughing:

Also I will state again. If Symmetra ever becomes a destroyer of worlds, then her range should be dropped back down to what it originally was - 5m.

(Which is Rein’s range)

I concede.

The difference between Reinhardt and Sym is that Reinhardt can hit multiple people per swing whereas Sym cannot.

I didn’t know it was Welder until I saw her early concept work, where her weapon was called the Arc Welder.

Um… I wouldn’t call that punishment since your Ult is always up. Nobody in the game generates Ult charge while their Ult is up.

So it’s not punishment exactly, it is more like a standard.

Any Ult can win you the game or be useless. Genji Ult is powerful yes? It can either win you the game, say in the last fight, where you wipe the enemy team, or you pop it and Symmetra and her Turrets fry you instantly, and it becomes useless.

True. I think it would work even if she is not there next to the Ult actually, as long as damage to the Ult or to Sym, cancels the channel.

So as long as Q is pressed while your Ult is up, causes Sym to channel for 3 seconds to destroy her Ult. Damage interrupts the channel.

Are you suggesting that Reinhardt is a Passive hero because he doesn’t need to aim?

Positioning is not a passive thing. Chasing after enemies with Primary is not a Passive thing.

And we know that because we know Movement is not passive thing.

Movement is Active by nature. Positioning comes from your Movement and is also Active.

And Sentry Turrets, while I gave them to you as Passive ability for the sake of it, are not fully Passive.

Sentry Turrets need to constantly be replaced, and thus require active participation.

They have an element that is Passive, which is after they go online, when they do, you can ignore them and move on.

Someone on the other thread suggested that Sentry turrets should only last like 20s and be indestructible.

That sounded like a chore to me.

There is great power in having Sentry Turrets be Passive, which is that they stay up indefinitely and you don’t have to worry about them.

And while they are up, you can focus on doing Active things like using your Primary, Secondary and Barrier, and protecting your Allies and Ults, and go on mad flanks.

And Ults while themselves are Passive, create a lot of Active gameplay around them, since they can become Secondary Points of Contention.

So both Sentry Turrets and Ults have Active components to them.

But not Symmetra mains.

Symmetra mains have lower winrate than people who only play her on FPD and this is not because FPD is her niche, but because the game only counts the Wins on FPD, and not the Losses.

So you’ll see many people who play her only on FPD can have like 80% winrate.

It is a meaningless statistic.

They might show it for other heroes, but not for Symmetra since her winrate is distorted.

Sorry about that. I am not trying to be hostile. I’m just trying to pick apart your arguments.

If you think I didn’t fully address your argument, or didn’t do it justice, just let me know and I’ll go over it again with a fresh eye.

Has Telekinetic powers which make her super good at Basketball.

And…

MELANIN!

2 Likes
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Exquisite post. You were meant for greatness.

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I am glad you liked it.

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I like her kit the way it is now. I did a post a few weeks ago with a few tweaks to her gun and photon barrier. Title is “Quick Easy Symmetra Rework”.

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So Roadhog is also melee since his left-click only does any real form of damage to someone right in your face? And D.Va/Tracer aren’t that much better. In addition, melee typically means NOT A SHOOTING WEAPON (i.e. swords, axes, clubs, spears, etc.; a Photon Projector shoots, ergo not melee)!!! Plus, if she was “melee”, she wouldn’t have a punch attack (you know, like Reinhardt and Brigitte, who also lack a punch attack).

She was never meant to have a tanking ability. Plus, it doesn’t actually fit her, heavily due to that fact that she lacks the ability to soak damage herself (due to her 200 health, lower than Mei and Brigitte who have far more tanking capabilities and are still not considered tanks).

Thank you for making my point for me. She tries to do too much, and as such stinks at doing any actual role. Focus on two roles at once; try to do a third and she is spread too thin.

Hang on, you said that Photon Barrier is a tanking ability? That isn’t supporting (otherwise Reinhardt, Orisa, and Winston would also be pretty close to supports). In addition, Sentry Turrets don’t actually do that much to help your allies beyond providing a basic slow to foes.

I disagree. Some bonus range will make her able to dual better (especially with foes such as Tracer, who can hang outside of Sym’s range and still do pretty good damage), and the accuracy requirements will help give her a bit more skill.

Hang on, I thought that someone said that it was for busting slow comps?

Yeah, I will half-agree with you there. However, it could still use some tweaking to make it feel less clumsy.

Photon Barrier doesn’t really fit with her more defensive, stationary, kit (which is where a more stationary barrier could help; protect teammates and turrets). In addition, pretty much every support can be effectively used on attack. Give us one with a greater focus on defensive supporting (Ana is a good starting point, but not quite there).

Also, the ramp is useful because it can open up short-cuts (such as Ana or other low-mobility Heroes getting to a high ledge or crossing a large gap).

In addition, wouldn’t the mobile barrier that you can hold stationary (and not be able to use abilities at the same time) be an effective Reinhardt clone then?

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Me too. I am a fan of Symmetra’s kit as well. What do you think about my suggestions and how do they compare to yours?

Brakes
Roadhog, D.Va and Tracer can do damage outisde their effective range. That’s why they are close-range heroes.

Anything that cannot deal damage outside of that very very close-range, is Melee.

That’s what Rein, Brigitte, Sym and Genji in his Ult do.

Yea typically. But if it looks like a wing but is used for swimming instead, you call it a flipper.

So Symmetra’s gun, even though it is a gun, has such short range that it behaves like a melee weapon.

Which makes sense because it is a Welder, in the form of a weapon.

And that extreme close-range or melee range, is crucial to her identity so range should not be increased any further.

Aesthetically Symmetra does have a gun and fires a beam but for the purpose of balance, she is a Melee hero and she should be balanced like a Melee hero should be balanced.

They can’t Punch because they are both carrying shields in their left hand. Whereas Symmetra has a free hand.

[quote=“Brakes-11113, post:30, topic:34498”]
She was never meant to have a tanking ability. [/quote]
We don’t know that but she has it now and I love it.

Mei is a Tank. She is a specific kind of Tank that is a Peeler Tank. Peeler Tanks are not as Tanky as Hard Tanks but they bring lots of CC to the Table. That is what Roadhog is as well.

Brigitte is not a Tank, she is a Hybrid Tank-Support. This is because she has Tanking/CC abilities and Supporting abilities.

I didn’t say Sym was a pure Tank. I said she was a Hybrid.

She has a Tanking ability, as you even point out.

Having 1 DPS ability, 1 Tank Ability and 1 Support Ability, makes Symmetra a hybrid of the three roles. Similar to Torbjorn.

I pointed out that the weaknesses of Sentries and Photon Barrier, and said they can be easily fixed by making some tweaks.

You ignored what I said and concluded that I was making your point.

I didn’t actually make your point because I never said she does too much.

I think she is fine having this identity as the Hybrid of the 3 Roles.

In fact, I said that is her CORE identity that she should be balanced around.

You are completely misinterpreting my words.

There is a difference between the “Support” role and the verb “to support”.

Tanks support their team by protecting them. But that doesn’t mean they are “Support” category.

Is being pedantic your best form of argument?

They can slow enemies down to a crawl! That’s not called “basic slow” lol.

In addition, they distract enemies and force their fire away from your team, creating multiple targets for enemies to always be shooting down.

When you lower Sentry turret cooldown, then you buff this utility they have. Because now Symmetra can always have Sentry turrets around her, and always have this Spiderweb that enemies have to constantly be shooting down.

That’s why I stress that she is a Melee Hero, and that she should not be given more and more range.

That’s the wrong way to balance a Melee Hero.

[quote=“Brakes-11113, post:30, topic:34498”]
Hang on, I thought that someone said that it was for busting slow comps?[/quote]
Are you seriously asking this?

Secondary Fire is a zoning tool.

Slow comps or stationary defenses take up a certain space. Firing Balls into that space they are taking up, forces them out of it.

Again, it’s only clumsy if you misunderstand its purpose as a Zoning Tool and try to use it to kill instead.

The only defensive and stationary part of her kit is her Turrets.

So you are saying Photon Barrier is too offensive for Turrets, therefore should be removed.

That is ridiculous.

The solution is not to remove Photon Barrier. The solution is to fix the Turrets.

Turrets are TOO stationary. The game moves around too much too fast for Turrets to have the cooldown and slow-casting they have.

The solution is to speed up Turret placement and reduce their Cooldown. So that Symmetra can constantly move her Defensive Sentry Grid to different locations without waiting on cooldowns.

No.

Symmetra was given Photon Barrier so she could be more Offensive. She was given Shield Gen so she could be more Offensive.

I don’t want to go backwards and shove her back into an First-Point Defense bot.

I want to make her more versatile in more situations.

So a Ramp essentially does what Mei wall does but does not have the other abilities of Mei wall - Tanking ability, Peeling Ability and Zoning Ability - in order to make it really good.

Removing Photon Barrier and replacing it with a Ramp would be a big NERF to Symmetra.

No because you cannot continuously do it. You can only do it once for up to 2 seconds after which the Barrier becomes unwieldy and flies forward in whatever direction it was facing.

So what this change does is allows Symmetra to hold the Barrier for a 2 seconds of additional protection. And it allows her to Turn the Barrier so that it protect from off-angle fire.

It fixes the issues with Photon Barrier while maintaining the strengths of the Photon Barrier.

The strengths of the Photon Barrier are -

1. Photon Barrier allows you to play more Aggressively and be more Offensive

  • Symmetra is a Melee hero and Melee heroes require protective skills like Photon Barrier in order to be more aggressive (or else they need a lot of Hard CC and Mobility)

2. Photon barrier allows you to protect the front line from all the way in the back.

  • It is a moving Barrier so you can be behind, near your healer, which is where you normally want to be, but you can protect the front line but throwing a barrier towards them.

3. With Photon Barrier, you can protect Allies who are disengaging really well.

  • You can protect disengaging allies by throwing the Barrier at them while they run back to you. The barrier will continue to protect them as they successfully disengage

4. Photon Barrier is really good at shutting down Ults.

  • You can cast it at McCree Ult and as it moves towards him, it covers more and more of his field of view and prevents him from doing damage.

  • You can cast it at Pharah and not only block her damage but also deal damage back to her, since Photon Barrier will move right into her face causing her to damage herself.

  • You can cast it an Tracer’s Pulse Bomb and send it flying back to her.

  • You can block Rein Earthshatter. You can also prevent Rein from Earthshattering, while you are standing all the way in the backlines. When you send this flying forward towards him, it will block his Earthshatter if he casts it.

  • You can block D.Va Ult, Bastion Ult, Soldier Ult, all kinds of Ults.

6. WIth Photon Barrier you can shut down Sniper Sight lines.

  • Since the Photon Barrier moves, it takes up more and more of a Sniper field of vision, thereby shutting their sightline down for a while.

Photon Barrier is really useful in the right situations.

So I don’t want to see it go because it allows for really powerful blocking, which stationary barriers cannot do.

The weaknesses that Photon Barrier has -

1. Its shape gives way to firing from off-angles.

  • So the shape needs adjustment, it needs to be a bit bigger and cover allies from more sides.

2. It moves in one direction and people can easily side-step it in close-quarter duels.

  • So allowing Symmetra to hold it for a bit and even change the direction of it, at the cost of fire power, will help alleviate this weakness.
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Really well-thought out thread. Great discussion going on here.

In my own experiences with playing Symmetra, I’ve found a few things that I continue to have trouble with:

  1. Anti-flanking
  2. Ult Placement

I feel like her kit is already pretty well set-up to be a counter of sorts to flankers, e.g. Smart turret placement can alert to incoming flankers, as well as slow & damage them while you either engage 1v1 or rally your team. The problem is the 1v1 survivability. I think a flanker that makes the mistake of choosing the wrong corridor should lose encounters against Symmetra more often then win. Getting hit by a turret (especially if by multiple) should be an incentive to back out and try another route. She really should be able to more effectively lock down a side path.

As for Ult placement, I think this suffers from the inevitable expansion of game savvy natural to its longevity. It’s pretty rare to place an Ult down where no one would expect. I’m really not sure what I would suggest here. Oftentimes, a Tracer is immediately blowing these up, or you’re effectively turning your team into a 5v6 by hanging back to guard it.

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i like it, thank you for your well described input.

Edit: one thing i would like to add is being able to place her ultimate on slight slopes*** theres so many times when i want to place it down and there is the slightest hill - not perfectly flat and her ult just stays red, not being able to plant it.

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Syms lore talks about “hardlight” and her kit revolves around that manipulation of electromagnetic frequencies (light) into a solid substance.

Her laser turrets, shield, and shield generator, and primary attack all revolve around that concept.

Maybe if she could “heal” shields, such as orrisa, rienhardt and brigitte, it would allow them to persist in combat and she can choose between dmg or healing with her beam on shield objects.

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I was thinking more of a passive for Shield giving

36

The passive is kind of there, but tied to her ult, which is too situational and you sacrifice a teleport or a shield gen to pick between ults.

Armor is supplied by torb and brigitte now. No one provides shields minus lucio and sym with ults. Maybe just passively being near her you get 50 shield like a lucio aura? I don’t like that idea but it would give her more team utility.

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She doesn’t really do anything though with her current utility, she can be proven useless by an avg tracer.

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Pfff. Shes good enough on console.

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…no she is not

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I mean. She can get hard walled (Turrets) by winston and (Personally) by tracer. But if they don’t have those ppl shes a fine character. And the fact that she doesnt have to aim, along with the lower accuracy on console makes her fine. (on console)