Photon barrier is both a tank and support ability, because tanks ARE supports. But just because you have tank abilities, doesnât make you a tank.
Tanks in OW have high health (at least 400, plus special HP like armor or shields), do most damage at close range, and have tank abilities like CC and damage blocking.
Off-tanks have all of these things but less.
Symmetra fulfils the description of an off-tank hero.
1.) High health: up to 275 hp, with 100-175 of her health being shields at any time, which gives her a LOT of sustain. Donât believe me? Just look at Ana, who also has 200 hp and a self heal and yet no self-sustain compared to Sym.
2.) Tank abilities: Barrier blocks and even reflects damage, even from ults; Slow (from turrets) is a form of CC
3.) Powerful close range: The infamous primary fire
What pushes Sym over into Support is her ultimates. Similarly, Brig has many off-tank features, yet her healing pushes her into support.
I wouldnât mind the shield to have a double charge or shorter cooldown. I wouldnât mind if the second charge barrier was a bit weaker. I agree on the turret placement range. It needs to be extended a bit to a bit higher than you can get when jumping.
Iâm fine with the charge time of her orb launcher, but her orb needs to move faster, because at a distance a Reinhardt with his shield up could have enough time to dodge. It would also help Symm handle snipers, because a scoped widow can dodge and kill you the moment you fire that thing.
My rework, based on personal experience, what I think would be fun and her theme -her play since launch and how she is portrayed in the comics.
First of all, I think all heroes should have all abilities slots, i.e.: LC, RC, Shift, E, Q and passive, preferably 2 passives.
LC: As is. I actually think its ok by itself. Alternatively: Maybe to make it more skill based, LC acts like a whip-hook, you gotta lash an enemy before it latches onto them, kinda like hitting a hook, it could also give recharge your shield while doing so;
RC: I donât dislike the ranged ball, but it takes so long to charge it and is circumstantial, too circumstantial. I think it should create a bubble, similar to winstonâs, halfway smaller, that drains your ammo per second &/or by damage taken;
Passive: Iâve long thought her whole support thing is shielding allies, so better make it a passive. 75 was too much, 25 was too little. having to press E on allies to give shield was also very lackluster. I think she should give 50-75 shields to allies in a certain area;
E: Instead of her moving barrier (which has its uses, but its kinda weird) she now enters a defensive stance (cue lighting energy in front of her) and absorbs a number of damage from attacks in front of her (yes, kinda like reflect/bubble). After absorbing x amount or for y seconds, it throws back an energy ball (exactly like her RC now.;
SHIFT: Her sentries (and ults, more later) have its uses, but it suffers from the same problem as torbâs which is baby sitting syndrom, only worse. Turrets cooldowns are way long and 6 is too high a number to keep it up in a game like OW. She should be limited to maybe 3-4 sentries similar to those in the comics. Theyâre slightly larger, have more HP and twice the damage. I think a ranged deploy system would work wonders;
ULT: NO PERMANENT ULTs. NO perma ults for any character. baby-sitting is boring. This is not TF2. Hunting gen/tele is boring, baby-sitting gentele is boring, withdrawing from the field to deploy gentele is boring. managing your tele charges is annoying and counter-productive. No. just no.
I admit I havent thought of very good ults but so far anything is better than babysitting. A few possibilities:
Pressing Q will allow all sentries to act as portals. Entering a portal will take your to your oldest or newest deployed sentry. A portal will deploy automatically in the spawn;
Q increases passive generation by either: increasing shield provided, increasing aura size or a bit of both;
Q generates a cloak field, shield aura also provide invisibility to allies. Firing or being fired upon temporally deactivates it;
Being able to build bridges or portals to allies or to increase self mobility would also be good. Not sure how to implement it.
I certainly agree with the tanks and supports having similar characteristics (both designed mainly for enabling DPS to do their role better). Personally though, I would say that the high health remark isnât really valid due to how it buffs EVERYONEâS health, which may actually push Genji into an off-tank role based on those descriptions. The other two are convincing points though (although shields are more for main tanks, but that is mostly irrelevant), although I still stand by my comment that she should be moved away from doing so much so poorly and become more pure defence/support hybrid. She could probably use a bit more supporting as well.
I like her turrets snaring. That is part of her role as a support!
My suggestions would beâŚ
Increase turret placement range to double what it is.
Reduce the cooldown of the recharge (or add ways to speed it up)
Reduce cast time of turrets to .35 seconds working instantly and none of this second delay nonsense.
Add ult charge after placing an ult to use both turrets. 2nd ult cost 3x more then the first.
That or
Increased turret placement range and effectiveness
Increase turret health to 50.
Increase effectiveness of the snaring capability by 3 stacking 2 turrets cap (so she doesnt need a nest to use her powerful snare).
Another suggestion is to add utility to her shield. I personally want a knockback that triggers every 1 second knocking targets back a few distance and adding some damage when enemies hit. This would enable her to give team mates space and get environmental kills in some places.
The point of this post is how to buff Symmetra correctly.
Thatâs what I have done. Have you read the thread?
Other than the Photon Barrier manipulation, those ideas are not particularly mine, they are shared by other Symmetra mains and have been shared by Top 500, Top 10 Symmetra mains as well.
I shared them because I think these are the correct ways to buff Symmetra.
And that doesnât mean I donât like other ideas, I like the idea of a destructible Ult, which is a new addition to this thread and did not previously exist in my 11 Changes to Symmetra - thread.
Someone above you suggested that Ult should be flexible in terms of placement, so it should be placeable on inclines and such. That would be a good QOL buff to the Ult.
Others have suggested Ramps and such, which I think can work in her kit but NOT at the expense of her current abilities.
Of course, in a braintstorm, you must come with all kinds of ideas, but we must also test each idea vs our experience of the hero and the nature of the hero.
The more experience we have of the hero the better.
Those who have put hundreds of hours into Symmetra, will have a different idea of buffing Symmetra, compared to people who barely play Symmetra.
And I am biased towards the former.
No, I think she is viable. She can use QoL changes and Effectiveness Buffs to Turrets and Barriers, and some QoL changes to the Ult.
Agreed.
Teleporter is very powerful.
It is most useful the further you are from the point. So on first point Defense and second point of Attack, Control point and all Payload points.
It can also be effective on First point Hybrid maps, depending on the map. Kingâs Row I would say is the only map where First Point Attack doesnât need Tele since spawn is so close. I havenât played Blizz world yet so no comments there.
It can also be effective on Second Point of Defense in those cases where you need an alternative, unpredictable spawn path to the point. Like in Horizon Lunar Colony, Defender spawn is very close and normally youâll have Shield Gen but sometimes, it is beneficial to place the Tele on the high ground and give the Defenders a better chance to Defend the point.
Giving 75 HP to all members of your team, that is 450 HP is very powerful.
It is not comparable to a healer actively healing your team.
The Shield Generator
buffs your total amount of HP, so you can fall out of lethal headshot range of some heroes, and others need to hit more to kill you, as you say.
It also spans a large area of the map, so it reaches your Flankers whom Healers cannot reach. For Tracer it is a 50% HP increase, and her Genji and Sombra can all make very good use of it without having LoS with the healers.
it is a passive, so once Set-up, its utility is on-going and it allows you to do other things, and stack the amount you are contributing to your team.
it is an on-going Ult, so it is ALWAYS contributing, in all team fights in which it is up.
So Both Teleporter and Shield Generator are powerful Ults.
This is why I say they do not need a single buff.
Being able to perform self-initiated refund of Ults and other QoL changes like flexible placement, being able to ping the location of Ult to team - these are good changes.
But other than that Ults are in a good place, and it is her Turrets and Barrier that should be the primary targets to buff, if there are going to be buffs.
As for fun, the Ults create Secondary Points of Contention, which create a lot of fun gameplay around them.
Symmetra is like a RTS hero translated to an FPS. She is quite unique to Overwatch.
Her idea of fun is strategy and building things in certain places to make certain things happen.
Her idea of fun is to direct the follow of battle through Secondary Fire, Turrets and Teleporter.
No. Her impact in a fight ramps up when the enemy invades your position.
Which is the opposite of someone like Tracer, who brings the fight to the enemy.
Symmetra Lv3 Beam is like her Third Ultimate. It increases her direct imapct on the fight.
But you donât need Lv3 Beam in order to have an impact.
Your Lv1, Lv2, Orbs, Turrets, and Barrier give you a decent fight and support for your team.
Then once you have Ult, you are constantly reinforcing the backbone of your team in addition to the above.
Agreed.
What do you think about the suggestions I listed?
Symmetra already has this as part of her identity. She puts up turrets that slow enemies and creates multiple targets for enemies to shoot down or else they are slowed and take damage.
Her Turrets are already a Spider web and should be buffed accordingly. ie should be faster to cast and be available much more frequently.
Mei slows but she doesnât weave Turret webs for the enemy to tear down.
She already has enough shield and hardlight in her kit. Her buffs should aim to improve what is already there.
Good analysis Shinypants.
Funny you say that because in the OW the more Flankers you have the less Tankiness you need on your team.
I think the movespeed on the Orb is fine.
If it was faster it would be broken, as you point out how Rein would not be able to dodge it while shielding.
If Rein could never dodge your orbs then he would be pulling his hair out. it is not easy to kill a Symmetra in the backline so he would be driven to madness with your fast moving 125 damage dealing, shield piercing orbs.
It would be a broken ability if it was faster.
You would have to nerf its damage to balance it with the speed, and I personally donât think itâs worth the trade.
And I also want to add that it is totally possible to spam that at Widow and hit her and maker her retreat. Widow has a very narrow site line and you can stand at off-angles and discourage her from sniping your team with your secondary orb.
With your photon barrier you can block her Line of sight and discourage her that way.
Symmetra-Widow matchup used to be heavily in Widowâs favour. But with the Photon barrier that has changed and Symmetra now has tools to defend herself from Widowâs onslaught.
Her Photon Barrier is awesome.
See my other thread where I discuss its awesomeness-
Interesting way of looking at it. I was just saying that Genji would be pushed into a tanking category under that definition if Symmetra fits into it as well because of the 275 health with Shield Generator (plus Brigitte can further boost it to 325), Dragon Blade is close range (plus his Swift Strike and Shurikens are better for close-mid range instead of long range), and Deflect is close to a tanking ability (due to blocking damage).
Symmetra or any character in the game are defined by what they give to the team, and symmetra provides the following: damage ( situational) , reduce enemy speed, give extra shield health, and teleportation (ult)
Then after the rework they changed it so shield giving is now only ult , but add a blocking ability
My suggestion is to give her back her value of shield giving to her normal abilities even at the cost of her barrier
One suggestion is the ability to build a different type of turret the provide 25 shield to nearby allies for each turret and is counted towards her 6 turrets limit ( obviously the range should be less than shield gen but still not too short)
That way you can choose to to mix between the slowing turrets or the shield ones with a Max of 150 shield if all are shield turrets ( will be hard to make the overlapping ranges of these turrets to focus on one area to get that maximum 150 shield )
Deflect might as well be a Tanking ability due to how large its hitbox is.
Near Melee Damage from Primary Fire
she can participate in brawls with your tanks in the front line and can repel flankers and other annoyances away from your Healers in the bacline
Zoning and Area Control from Secondary Fire
itâs a slow-moving, high-damage projectile that zones in linear paths
it can penetrate barriers, so the more Barriers you see in a game the stronger Symmetra is against them.
Area Control and Attracting Enemy Attention and Fire with Turrets
Symmetraâs Turrets are like a spider-web that she is constantly weaving around her allies
when enemies step into them they are slowed and take damage
they must then tear down these webs so that they are not continuously slowed and taking damage
Burst Damage and CC Prevention
Symmetraâs Photon Barrier prevents her and her allies from taking Burst damage
Photon Barrier also acts as a pre-emptive Cleanse that allowes Symmetra prevent her allies from being CCed
Enhanced Mobility
Symmetraâs Teleporter enhances the mobility of your team and allows them to get to the point extremely fast
Works really well the the point is far from your spawn
Enhanced Health
Symmetraâs Shield Gen enhances the health points of your team so that they fall out of lethal headshot range, and can take more hits before they die
Symmetraâs Shield Gen is like a 450 HP tank on your team
Other notes -
Shield gen and Turrets together, make things very annoying for enemies as they have to shoot at additional targets and have to damage additional health in order to kill your team.
Barrier adds to this by blocking burst damage and CC and prevents your Team from Dieing.
Teleporter reinforces the backbone of your team and reinforces it constantly.
Symmetra brings a lot of Utility with her and does not need additional skills to provide even more utility. That is just over-doing and loading up a hero for now reason.
She just simply needs to be tweaked in numbers so that she can output a greater power level.
What if her Primary and Secondary Fire provided a decaying overheal effect with shields (just allow 20% of actual health, yep kind of sucks for Zenyatta and Zarya, rocks for Roadhog) and she can heal shield health (Oh, now she can effectively heal 160 for Zenyatta and 240 for Zarya, but I wouldnât overextend to barriers).
I posted a very emotional thread about this a couple of days ago that (fortunately) received no reply. Hereâs my TL;DR for what I believe should be done to sym, and it seems we have some overlap:
22% faster reload
balls charge up faster
no spawn delay on sentry turrets, faster placement
reduced cooldown on sentries greatly
move projected barrier to be another âmodeâ of sentry that consumes 2 sentry charges
put her ults on the previous bind for projected barrier, same properties, but tele has 2 charges and shield gen contributes 50 points to shields
create a new ultimate that causes all her creations to become crazy OP
I have never seen someone suggest faster reload as a Sym buff but it certainly would be a simple buff.
Well currently they are balanced between uncharged and charged balls. If you made them charge faster, I think it would disrupt this balance between the two.
I donât know certainly it would up her overall DPS while not buffing her burst potential so it can be a good change.
Yes and Yes.
Simply lowering the cooldown on her Turrets will up her Power Level a lot since sheâll be outputting more DPS and more Support via her Turrets.
Itâs not a good idea to have a Protective skill consume charges of a Attacking Skill.
When you will need Photon Barrier, you might have no charges since you have Turrets up.
Very bad idea.
Itâs better to reduce cooldown on Photon Barrier in other ways. Or simply give her 3 charges of Photon Barrier on a 20 second cooldown, which is what your change accomplishes.
No. Her Teleporter is a powerful Ult.
Letâs not tear down ults and make them into braindead imbalanced abilities. Looking at you Mercy.
What if instead of teleporter she was able to make holes in the wall to walk through lol it would be buggy as fudge and probably not really fit into her light bending.
So maybe let her build structures i dunno Symmetra has limitless possibility because of who she is they should have some fun.
This is true, and the recent dev comments seem to suggest that theyâre toying with her as a Defense hero, which is a categorization that I like, since we all know that support should probably be redefined to be âHealerâ anyway.
Something else that could be interesting would be allowing simultaneous use of the ults, but I donât know if thatâs enough of a buff, too much of a buff, or a buff in the wrong ways.
Yea they could move Sym to Defense or they could also move Torbjorn to Support and pre-rework Sombra as well. She was definitely a Support (not sure about post-rework Sombra though).
By doing that they are indicating that Support means much more than Healer. It also refers to heroes that buffer (Armours, Shield Gen) and debuffer (Turrets, Hacks).
They donât need to change her gun since itâs already in a good spot.
Teleporter is pretty powerful as an Ult so I am not sure why we would want to get rid of it (or even make it into an ability like the tease indicated).
