The issues with clash

General Discussion
1

Clash
if i could describe clash in one word it would be: unfair
there are multiple problematic elements with clash.

1: counterswapping
although counterswapping is a game wide issue clash truly has the worst of it. if you win the first fight you lose the second. if you then don’t counterswap back you lose the entire game. there is not enough breathing room for counterplay or proper ult exchange the gamemode is simply too fast and unforgiving. clash is a gamemode that simply cannot function well in 5v5 as it rewards counterswapping far more then actual skilled play.

2: steamrolling
another issue is that clash turns into a steamroll fest instantly. even the devs have put a safety net for this at the last point which requires more capture time. the problem here lies with the “safety net” clearly clash creates issues if it needs a safety net. why launch a gamemode that creates issue or cannot function properly? the safety net is also incredibly in the losing teams favor.

3:Hanaoka
hanaoka is not a well designed map. unlike hanamura almost all sideroutes and high ground is completely non existent on hanaoka. this creates a brawl heavy map with little to none tactical play. some heroes need maps in order to play into counters. for instance dva on dorado will play better into zarya then on new junk city. hanamura used to have dominant enough high ground more then just brawl could be played. hanaoka doesnt grant the player options and is incredibly forced. on the contrary throne of anubis does a good job of recapturing temple of anubis and grants the player ample high ground and off angles.

4: forcing the gamemode
we have learned from push that players don’t like to be forced to play a specific gamemode too much. they are forcing clash in order to collect data and player response which is good for them but players will get sick of this mode before long especially how unfun the mode is to play. if clash is too last in ow shoving it down the players throat is not the way to do it.

5: the lack of proper teamplay
ow2 teamplay is practically non existent. its a 4v4 deathmatch with 2 raidboss tanks on the map. what does this have to do with clash? well everything. this gamemode isn’t built for teamplay. its built for individual players and their agency. a tug of war is always decided by the stronger team and the stronger team is the team that counterswaps and plays the broken characters. with clash being so unforgiving and fast it leaves no room for a player to devise a plan to attempt a recap. pressing H instantly gets value where using your brain and playing together will not overcome a snowball.

all with all i think clash will do more damage to overwatch then it will do good. for once let the overwatch team not be the overwatch team and remove this gamemode.

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I agree with these for Hanoaka, but definitely not for Temple. The only real big improvement I could see is if they added capture points to the sides too instead of only going back and forth.

Hanoaka does seem very cluttered tier 2 capture point where I feel like I cannot get a good point of entry or defense / attack without getting obliterated when on the defense.

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I like the mode and don’t find it too different from the others. Kill enemy, take point, regroup if the fight is lost (big pain point I imagine for most)

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The flaw is the same as every new map type. You’re forced to play that garbage when you never asked for it.

We need map type selection now.

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I’m sorry to say this but that’s not how overwatch is meant to be played at higher skill levels.
for instance take rialto first. if i play closer to their spawn for the first fight even if i lose i can still force a second fight before they cap. if i play further back the second fight will happen on the bridge in which case its harder to stop the enemy team from capping.
in clash you cant do things like that since its too fast and too much of a snowball fest. a map should never play out the same across all ranks.
the mode just simply doesn’t fit in overwatch.
that’s not to say that people cant find it fun. id expect it is semi fun for newer players and casuals. however any experienced ow player wont like clash

on temple midpoint and second you can absolutely run a dive comp effectively. that’s something you cant do on hanaoka that’s why its imo better. however the gamemode ensures that any tactical play is overrun by counterswapping.

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Major issue is if you lose first point and no one groups it is likely a stomp. Also if you are grouping after losing first point the other team has the advantage of already being at the point and in position before it unlocks.

Pretty unfair advantage.

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If both teams are 4 point to 4 points but you are pushing into the enemy spawn for the last point it’s almost a guaranteed loss. They just keep spawning there but any deaths on your end have to come from all the way across the map. You only need one tick but its next to impossible to get that tick. Especially if you lost any on your team winning that previous point, the enemy spawn right on the final point ready to meet you.

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No offense taken. I typically play at higher skill levels

Maybe I’m not as experienced as I thought

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not meant to be an insult btw. its just that ow2 has already destroyed a lot of tactical play and teamplay. the 5v5 format just isn’t built for it. its supposed to be more deathmatch like. clash to me feels like something i would play in cod. doesn’t mean it cant be fun but what made ow special is nowhere to be found in clash. clash is very generic and i would say worse then even cod since clash still has team requirements, snowballing and counterswapping. if i wanted to play brainless gamemodes ill play cod instead.

because otherwise the match ends to early thats why i hate the fact the team went through with clash.[similar to 5v5 ironically] its clear that the gamemode has and a lot of issues yet they push it anyways. why push something so flawed?

yup it sucks

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The issue with Clash is that people at lower ranks / elos don’t understand how to play it, unfortunately.

This game mode requires a lot of team synergy and most players don’t have that. If game modes were to be ranked in terms of difficulty, like heroes were in Overwatch 1, Clash would be a 3-star difficulty game mode, while Escort and Hybrid would be a 1-star difficult mode, hence why most players in this community and forums like those two the most.

They’re the slowest and easiest to play for beginners. I guess F2P Overwatch will head towards easy game modes (if Escort and Hybride get to remaining the only two available game modes), it’s such a shame. Changes are always good and appreciated in old games, released 8 years ago.

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So how would you oh high rank player, Create an advantage in clash? You say it involves teamplay i say thats a very basic for all gamemodes. Fast does not equal hard and it does not equal skilled. Not when the mode is dominated by snowballing and counterswapping. Truth be told there is no thinking involved in clash its a tug of war. Determined by strength not skill.

Pose this scenario. One of my first clash games. We lost teamfight its 4-4. Somehow i slipped out into their backline. Im on genji with ult. My team is on the way back from spawn. If i upt into their team and target their ashe i can force another 4v4 fight in overtime even if i die. I go in kill ashe game ends no overtime. Screw you.

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Half the players players, if not more haven’t even grasped the very concept of regrouping, not going 1v5 or wasting ults when almost the entire team is wiped out (in almost 8 years of Overwatching existing).

I don’t think their gameplay is even better in other modes. The only difference is that Escort and Hybrid are slower-paced because of the slow payload to push, and it has a lot of breaks where you don’t do anything outside of escorting the thingy…

I guess people like it when there’s time to kill so they can catch a break… ?

It does in FPS games, sorry to say. If people say they get stomped in Clash, I’m sure they are just as much in other game modes. I would really like to see more replay codes from people complaining about Clash. Someone did yesterday and I could analyze it and their teammates played like AI… No follow-up, no waching each other’s back etc…

I’m sure a lot of higher ranked players must not like Clash as well (I mean we all have pereferences), but it is clearly not for the same reasons and clearly not because of “stomps” (as they are rare in higher ranks unless someone throws or afks).

Yup, in lower ranks, it’s all about snowballing, true but that’s not because Clash has a so-called “bad design”, yet because a big portion of the Overwatch community is simply bad at the game, in general, and has a very casual gameplay, which is okay, in a way…

Maybe casual players should only be playing Escort maps, given that other game modes seem too difficult on them (and again, that’s fine if slower game modes suit them better).

Mayb release “Lax Quick Play” at some point and only have Escort and Hybrid game modes there for a group of players to enjoy.

My sweet summer child…

Whatever that means to you, doesn’t mean much in FPS games.

Send a replay code. It will be easier to spot what your teammates (or yourself) did wrong that led to a defeat. Also, 4-4 is not a stomp and a pretty tight match.

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I never had as much fun in overwatch in years as I have in clash at the moment.

it beeing role q is absolutely amazing.

best time of my life. my tracer is super happy to see some usage again. :heart:

thank you devs for this amazing mode.

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so what ur saying is that the mode rewards being avarage? knowing how to regroup isn’t gm worthy its silver at best.

but ow isn’t your standard fps. ow2 is trying to be for some reason. but ow isn’t like cod or valorant. ow requires more tactical play and coordinated play then any other fps on the market. sounds to me that you just like most of the playerbase has forgotten what good overwatch looks like. thats what i mean by “it doesn’t belong in ow” its a mode made for more traditional fps games. overwatch isn’t traditional.

so the mode is garbage in low level play and extremely forced in “high” level play. i think you don’t even know what high level ow looks like. because you havent answered

this. give me a way to create an advantage in clash that goes beyond basic requirements.

really so a tug of war isn’t a contest of strength? put 5 bodybuilder idiots vs 5 skinny geniuses. you’re saying there’s a way for the skinny geniuses to win? no there isn’t.

ow isn’t a traditional fps once again. if it where just purely skill vs skill it would be a fun gamemode. that’s just not how overwatch is played out. that’s how call of duty plays out.

its really not. its a tug of war so its counterswap to counterswap. my point was since there is no overtime i cant force a second fight. what’s the point of walking out of spawn if one teamfight determines the win conditions? if i had forced a overtime fight it would still be fair. they won because they walked out on counters for the last fight. no one did anything wrong gameplay wise that’s why i say its unfair

I’m glad you like it and I’m glad you’re having fun.
although that doesn’t mean the mode doesn’t have major issues. always take into account that there is a honeymoon period for players. maybe in a month or two you will be absolutely sick of clash.

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Yup, and silver to Plat represents more than half the playerbase, if not more in Ovewatch.

Your point ?

Last time I checked 10-15% only were at Master (maybe even lower now ?).

:yawning_face:… My point is that the majority of players that consists of casual players have trouble with game modes that are fast-paced which will be problematic if they won’t adapt and will calls for the boycott of the game mode.

It won’t help them improve at the game and in terms of diversity of gameplay, playing Escort and Hybrid only is bad. Devs will be less creative and the game is soon going to be even more boring.

Dodging difficulty by removing the content players don’t want to learn is not the way.

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so your point is that because the mode is made for low rank players its good? that is the stupidest defense I’ve ever heard. top down balance always

sounds like overwatch isn’t for you. maybe cod is more your style. turn your brain off shoot people. overwatch isn’t like that. now you’ve convinced me that you don’t know what high level ow is.

still interesting you are unable to answer this despite me asking twice. wanna know why you cant answer it? because there is nothing. the gamemode isn’t complex enough. maybe if you don’t know what good overwatch looks like you shouldn’t be trying to school others.