The "hiding mercy" fallacy


#351

The professional players argued that the skill was not working well with the compettive nature of the game which was a big factor in Blizzard taking the actions that they did. So it was in fact a big part of why it happened.

h ttps://dotesports.com/overwatch/news/blizzard-overwatch-feedback-17480

There it is. Also, again I’m not appealing to ignorance, I’m appealing to common sense and logic. The skill was removed because that is the conclusion that they arrived to after careful consideration, which included the professional scene suffering from it.

You say that they fixed her before the rework but not how so, as far as I know they didn’t “fix” her before the rework, the rework itself was the fix.

h ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDlCqJ1tD3M

Here it is, you are again, mistaken.

This is actually factually wrong. It’s the complete opposite, the SR system works in a way that the more you do the more it rewards you at least below Diamond, and at the time, this restriction to Diamond didn’t exist so, the more you hide the less the system would reward you. This is why supports used to complain about how support heroes were receiving less SR from wins. Therefore the conclusion is that the SR system has nothing to do, add to that the fact that Blizzard literally stated that it was a gamplay concern that went against the design philosophy of the game.

The confirmation is the fact that Blizzard acted upon it. Action is the confirmation itself as it shows that Blizzard came to the conclusion that this skill was unhealthy for the game. And as all decisions, it was carefully made since they took their time trying other changes before arriving to the conclusion that it had to go.

No, it’s still a subjective opinion from a person, there is no evidence in there about mass rez not being unhealthy for the game.

But it was a design issue, it’s just common sense, things don’t get removed because nothing is wrong with them. Again, you are in denial.

You argued that it was possible for it to come back, not for you to ask for it. It won’t come back, but you are free to ask for it if you want.

it is implied in their actions and their statements about it. Old mass rez will never, ever come back. As for an alternative, it’s just speculation, tons of ideas have been thrown at it since the skill was removed, none of them have had enough weight to it for Blizzard to even acknowledge it.

And it would break the game again which makes no sense, why would we make the same mistake twice? Again it’s common sense.

Already stated that it wasnt.

First you say that they didn’t state it and now that they did state it.

No, its just how it happened and how common sense works. Anything else would be “alternative facts” and “alternative realities”.

There was no evidence whatsoever, it was all subjective opinions which are perfectly valid, still not evidence.


#352

It quite literally isn’t. They haven’t said this at all. They’ve only said, as of now, that they reworked Mercy because of “Hide n Res” and “Disheartening to play against”.

This proves that they listen to pros feedback. This doesn’t prove that they were a big reason as to why Mercy was reworked.

Stop reading it word for word. Look up the fallacy definion.

All of this has not been confirmed. For all we know, they could’ve just spend a day at thinking about this decision and we literally do not know if the pro scene was also a main reason.

I’ve already explained it.

Give me a time frame where they say mass res being capable of denying an entire team fight is not okay? Even if it was said, which, hint, it wasn’t, that would be the biggest double standard this game has ever encountered from the devs.

You keep saying this. I don’t think you know what it means.

:joy:

There were 2 issues with the SR issue including the one you just stated. To summarise, playing Mercy, at the time, artificially inflated your stats one way or another.

Yeah, no. If the strategy was bad and had no real benefits unless you want to rely on teammates to make mistakes to win, no one will ever use such a garbage strategy. With that in mind, the only logical conclusion is that the one redeeming quality about the strategy, the broken SR system, was the only issue that caused “Hide n Res”.

That’s called making an assumption.

Saying that the decision took more than a day is an assumption.

Appeal to Ignorance (argumentum ad ignorantiam)

Any time ignorance is used as a major premise in support of an argument, it’s liable to be a fallacious appeal to ignorance. Naturally, we are all ignorant of many things, but it is cheap and manipulative to allow this unfortunate aspect of the human condition to do most of our heavy lifting in an argument.

Interestingly, this fallacy is often used to bolster multiple contradictory conclusions at once. Consider the following two claims: “No one has ever been able to prove definitively that extra-terrestrials exist, so they must not be real.” “No one has ever been able to prove definitively that extra-terrestrials do not exist, so they must be real.” If the same argument strategy can support mutually exclusive claims, then it’s not a good argument strategy.

Ignorance isn’t proof of anything except that one doesn’t know something. If no one has proven the non-existence of ghosts or flying saucers, that’s hardly proof that those things either exist or don’t exist. If we don’t know whether they exist, then we don’t know that they do exist or that they don’t exist. Ignorance doesn’t prove any claim to knowledge.

You clearly didn’t read it… It is all objective.

It isn’t a design issue just cuz the devs say it is.

Which, as of now, you’re lacking.

Unless, wait for it, incompetence!

Pot meet kettle?

Indeed. I argued that it’s return is still a possibility since it hasn’t been denied that. I also acknowledge that you acknowledged the fact that you said that I’m allowed to continue suggesting it to which I replied, agreeing with you and exemplifying on what you said.

Already said that arguing like this is pointless. Indirect actions can suggest anything… This is, again, just you speculating.

Thank god I’m not arguing that then. I’m saying that mass Res in a new form with a new e ability, in other words. a rework is a possibility.

Nice hyperbole.

Because the actual mistake isn’t mass Res but rather, the SR system which I’ve said a couple hundred times.

Funny coming from you tbh.

The fact that the devs said that they believed it was a design issue? Yeah, sorry if I did. Besides, not like it matters.

Committing a logical fallacy is not common sense. Stahp. XD Like i said, saying it’s a fact because the devs said it is a logical fallacy.

You don’t know what subjective means. What do you want me to do about to that?


#353

Mass Rez is gone. It’s never coming back. Get. Over. It.


#354

The professional scene is and has always been a big factor in the balance decisions that they make, and since the professional scene gave them feedback that said mass rez was unhealthy for the game then it is a factor that is very relevant to the matter.

So first you deny that the channel existed and now it doesn’t prove that it was why Mercy got reworked, it seems more like you are trying too hard to avoid the reality of the situation. Except that it does as I’ve already stated above, it was one of the reasons why it got reworked.

I know the definition, that is how I know I am not incurring in it.

So you talk a lot about evidence of things how it proves this or that, and now you make an argument that doesn’t include evidence of anything, only your speculation that they might or might have not spend a day thinking about it, even thought it doesn’t make any sense whatsoever and it is only a desperate attempt at not acknowledging the reality of the situation. If you think Blizzard is the kind of company that will spend a day thinking about something then make a rushed decision like that, why are you wasting your time trying to argue the case about mass rez, when you already know they are extremely incompetent and their decision making is absolutely terrible?

We do know, you just don’t want to accept it.

You didn’t.

The video is right there anre he does literally factually say it. The fact that you don’t even want to actually watch it shows how much in denial you are about it. You just don’t want to admit that you are wrong, still he does say it and no, it is not a double standard just because you say so, it is just reality and common sense.

I do know, perfectly well.

Is that what it comes to?

No, it didn’t it was the opposite of that. You already acknowledge it by stating that what I said is true, therefore stating that the SR system had nothing to do with the action.

The SR system has nothing to do with the issue of mass rez as I have already stated, you are trying to deny reality itself by going against the facts.

No, it’s called a conclusion. The action was determined by their assessment of the situation, therefore is confirmation of it.

But it isn’t. It’s a logical conclusion based on facts.

You should probably read it yourself. Ignorace is the lack of knowledge and information, everything that I argue is based on both, and facts.

It isn’t, you don’t know what objective means.

It literally is. Since it is their game, they establish the design philosophy around it, therefore when something goes against that philosophy, it is literally a design problem.

I have already proven you mistaken on multiple occasions, I have demonstrated that I am not the one with a lack of it.

This reads “I don’t like what they did, therefore they are incompetent”.

I am not the one in denial, everything around the situation supports my argument. You on the other hand are asking for something that was removed and resolved a long time ago. As Einstein stated “the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result”. Mass rez hasn’t come back and it will not come back, no matter how much you ask for it.

You argued that I said it could still come back, I didn’t. You were trying to put “words into my mouth”. I simply stated again to clarify that I hadn’t stated that.

It is not speculating when they literally state the reasons for the rework, which they did. And then their actions support this, it’s just a train of thought and common sense.

As i stated, there has not been any suggestion that has any validity on how mass rez could come back, unless Blizzard says otherwise it is just the opinion of a person.

It is not a hyperbole, if you decide to put your finger into the fire expecting not to get burned then you are just making the same mistake again and not learning from it.

That is false, the SR system has nothing to do with it.

I guess it doesn’t matter when it doesn’t suit you.

There is no logical fallacy going on here, its just facts and common sense. There is an issue and the issue needs to be addressed. The issue was addressed and we learn from it so that we do not make the same mistake again.

I do know, that is how I know that there is literally no evidence saying otherwise, only the subjective opinions of people.


#357

I’m a game developer, there’s a massive difference between alpha and release. You get to mess about and make bigger changes in alpha, whereas in release, you need to be incredibly careful and really commit to your changes, because the entire active playerbase will see them and test them in anger (literal anger).

So, they laid the idea of mass res to rest. Reverting the removal would be re-adding mass res.

No.

Undoing 5 team-mates deaths was overpowered, even before invincibility. People STILL whine about a single res.

Please, tell me how you’d balance it, i’m interested to hear.

Nah, i’m referring to hide and res that was a valid tactic, and people only discovered the SR system was broken afterwards. We also discovered the SR system was STILL broken after that, and mercy was getting less SR than she should have. Either way, the problem wasnt res, it was SR.


#358

Alas, you still can’t confirm that they had any part in the decision of removing mass Res. Besides, feedback is feedback. It is just a bunch of subjective opinions thrown around that apparently have more merit because pros are saying it. The reality is, feedback is only more important if it can be proven and is reliable.

It’s more like, I didn’t even know. And then, when I did find out, it still wouldn’t matter because it doesn’t confirm your assertion that they, behind the scenes, had some part in the removal of mass res.

As of now, the two reasons are “Hide n Res” and “Disheartening to play against”. Why only these two? Because these are the two reasons the devs explicitly stated. Sure, there may be more, but I could care less about those since those reasons, since the devs didn’t mention it, were clearly not the reason why she was reworked.

The whole point is, we don’t know. That’s why we. Nvm, you should stop making arguments based on stuff that we can’t know since it hasn’t been stated or confirmed yet. Work with what you’re given.

Making arguments out of, “they took a lot of time to think about the decisions but they haven’t said this but it makes sense to me” does not make sense imo.

You’re completely missing the point. Like I said, we wouldn’t know so we should stop arguing about it. Just to answer this though, given their trend of “balance” changes, I really am starting to doubt their development team management.

Because they have the ability to change that anytime they want. Also, after all, they are employed as developers. You’d think that they’d need to start making competent decisions soon.

We don’t. Linking a thread where Jeff claimed that pros and devs talk in private chats does not prove that they had any involvement behind the scenes with the removal of mass res.

Refusing to agree with it does not mean it doesn’t exist.

I know the video is there. I asked for a timeframe. I’ve already went through the video and couldn’t find, “mass Res being capable of denying an entire team fight is not okay.

Lmfao, I’ve already watched it multiple times. Still making assumptions I see. Anyway, back on topic, you made a quote out of nothing. It isn’t in the video.

He doesn’t. I asked you to improve the evidence you provided. You haven’t done it yet. What’s that I smell?

Denial?

Your reality is skewed and distorted and hiding behind common sense when it doesn’t even help your position is pathetic.

Evidently not.

If this is what this argument is worth, then yeah.

No? Their was 2 real SR issues with the SR system which mostly affected Mercy.

Re-read the list of replies. Yeah, nvm, I’m not referring to what you’re talking about. Anyway, there were still issues to the SR system that again, artificially inflated your SR. And again, it doesn’t matter anymore because that was fixed long ago.

No.

The SR system had everything to do with the issue of mass res as I have already stated. You are trying to deny reality itself by going against facts.

(honestly, saying you disagree in a different and long way is a bad way of arguing)

Again, we don’t know what they “assessed”. Saying that they talked with pros and listened to them, deeming mass Res unhealthy is still an assumption. Saying they changed it so you must be right is not confirmation of anything. All you did was give more supposed reasons as to why mass Res was removed after it was removed.

It is an assumption. Like I said a couple of times which you’ve ignored thus far and I can tell that you’re going to continue saying “I disagree” in different iterations, we don’t know how long it took for them to make the decision. We should not be making arguments based on stuff we don’t know.

but… they… even give an. Example… Okay, well basically, saying that the devs deemed mass res as unhealthy because they had chats with Bliz in private chats is bad because we, again, don’t know if they had a part to play in the removal of mass Res. Saying that they did and basing your argument of that is what the above is saying.

And you don’t know what subjective or objective means. I’ll givr you a clue, Titanium’s quoted reply is objective. It even throws in numbers :joy:.

And that’s a logical fallacy. Don’t take the devs word as gospel.

It’s there game but they, again, can be wrong too… And again, “Hide n Res” was a result of the faulty SR system at the time and misinformed players. It was a playerbase and SR issue rather than a design issue. Are you in denial or what?

You got me there. I started laughing when you said, “multiple”.

Read it again.

Ironic because this screams, “I am in denial!”

Another hyperbole.

Nope. Like I said, I don’t want a revert.

Thank god it’s not the same thing then… Did you miss the part where I said that I don’t want a revert? I want a rework or the removal of Resurrect. Also, whilst we’re on the topic of Einston, scientists actually do have to repeat their experiments a dozen times just to make sure that the results are accurate.

Mass Res can come back and asking for it’s return can persuade the devs to bring it back with balance changes to make it more balanced.

I didn’t. I even tell you that I didn’t. Totally not denial btw. Totally just me being in denial.

You literally use the word implied… Let’s bring up a definition:

suggested but not directly expressed; implicit.

Blizzard as of now, haven’t denied any version of mass Res other than the one before her rework. With that in mind, I can suggest balance changes for Mercy to my hearts content. With mass Res or not.

It is a hyperbole if you’re going to claim that mass Res “broke the game”.

False, the SR system was the main cause of “Hide n Res”.

More like, just saying something doesn’t mean it’s true.

D E N I A L

This is starting to get boring now…

That’s alright, it was already addressed. If they really wanted to go over-the-top, just throw in a couple of tweaks and your done. A rework? Hell no.

Exactly, we learned from it. Which is why I’m suggesting mass Res with tweaks and a new e ability. We learned that old Mercy clearly had problems. One of which was fixed before a month, but she still had some issues. These issues are why people suggest bringing back mass Res with changes. We improvise based on what clearly flopped before.

I’m here to tell you that you don’t…


Whole load of denial here, amirite?

Explain how this changes the fact that they already put Valkyrie to rest: they already removed it beforehand and then brought back the concept 2 years later.

No, just a revert. Reverting isn’t the only way of bringing back mass Res. Also, might I add, just re-adding mass Res is not a revert. A revert is to go back to a previously existing state. Mass Res with tweaks is not a revert. It is a rework. Mass Res with no changes and her kit gets reverted back to the old one is a revert.

Yes, actually.

Firstly, the power of mass Res was incredibly inconsistent and was entirely dependant on the situation. Secondly, tempo ressing is more powerful than getting a 5 man. Thirdly, like I said wasn’t overpowered. Mercy was underpowered with it and was given Invulnerability and only then did she start to become remotely viable. Fourthly, people whine about single Res because it’s on a short CD. I’m just going to assume that you just forgot to add in the context. :wink:

Also, I’d you want a longer read that’s better than what I said, here:


It will take atleast an hour or maybe a little bit less to read.


Valkyrie:

  • Removed.

Resurrect:

  • Removed as a basic ability and placed as Mercy’s ultimate ability.
  • 15 meter range.
  • Line of sight requirement. Does not apply to destructibles, payloads, or non-fundamental map obstacles that are too small to actually obscure a player. In other words, none of that BS where a player can move behind a lamp post to evade a nuclear explosion.
  • 1 second cast time. Basic movement is unrestricted while casting, but all attacks and abilities are disabled for Mercy during this time.
  • If Mercy is stunned or killed while casting, Resurrect does not activate and Mercy loses all ultimate charge.
  • All living allies within range and LoS of Mercy once the cast time ends receive a burst heal of 150 HP. Mercy also receives this burst heal.
  • All dead allies within range and LoS of Mercy once the cast time ends are revived at full health and receive 2.25 seconds of invulnerability (same as current Resurrect and Resurrect pre-rework).
  • Mercy does not receive invulnerability upon Resurrect’s activation.
  • Resurrect does not require dead allies to be activated.
  • 1625 ultimate charge requirement (the same as Mercy 1.x’s Resurrect).

Most importantly, this takes Resurrect off one of Mercy’s basic abilities and places it into a position that matches its ultimate-like behavior. On top of this, various trade-offs were made to the ability to allow for the healing burst and the introduction of a second basic ability.

The healing burst, post-rez vulnerability, cast time, and LoS requirements all incentivise using Resurrect to revive 0-3 players rather than 4+ players. Attempting to use it on four or more players runs a greater risk a failed resurrect attempt due to the cast time. If Mercy manages to use Resurrect, there is a greater chance that she missed some allies due to the LoS requirement. If those two drawbacks do not drag her team down enough, there is also the fact that Mercy is vulnerable post-rez while her teammates are still reviving.

The healing burst and fire-at-will mechanics on Resurrect make the ability more flexible and open up some unique uses for it. For example, Mercy could use Resurrect to grant her team a burst of healing in the middle of the teamfight to keep their momentum going rather than waiting for an ally to rejoin the fight after being killed and revived.

New Basic Ability - Pacify:

  • After a .5 second wind-up, Mercy launches a single hitscan attack from her left hand.
  • The projectile’s hitbox size resembles that of Symmetra’s secondary fire.
  • The projectile deals no damage upon impact with an enemy. Instead, it applies a debuff that reduces the base damage dealt by the target by 33%. 100 damage is reduced to 67 damage before other damage amplifiers/reductions are factored in.
  • This debuff lasts for 4 seconds.
  • The projectile does not persist once it hits an enemy. It is only able to affect one enemy for each use.
  • The projectile is blocked by barriers, Defense Matrix, and Particle Barriers. It can be deflected by Genji’s Deflect ability.
  • 10 second cooldown. The cooldown begins after the ability is cast.
  • There is a .25 second wind-down time after Pacify is launched.
  • During the wind-up and wind-down times, Mercy is not able to use her staff, her pistol, or Resurrect. She may use Guardian Angel, however.
  • Does not affect non-player entities and constructs (turrets, Rip-Tire, Supercharger, etc).

^^^
This suggestion from Titanium would be fine.

Wasn’t unless your goal was to get wiped again. Hiding puts your team in a disadvantageous situation and is detrimental to your team’s chances of winning the match.

People would notice that their SR started to inflate when they used the strategy.

Yes, the problem was the SR. No sane person is going to willingly use a bad strategy that is almost guaranteed to fail unless the enemy is incompetent.


#359

I already confirmed it, because it was part of their decision making. Also it’s very ironic that you mention how the feedback of professional players is just a bunch of subjective opinions, but when it comes to the post that you mentioned before, it was objective. This only shows how you are cherry picking arguments to suit your, it’s good when it suits you but it’s bad when it doesn’t.

So now you argue ignorance, who was the one talking about ignorace before? Yes, that is you, you are the one arguing from ignorance, and falling repeatedly on your own feet. What is important here is showing how you change stances, as I demonstrated first you deny then when its confirmed you deny again.

So if there in fact are more reasons, which I’m not saying there are, you will just dismisse them? That sounds like a great decision making process. The reasons were clearly stated and the actions taken solved the problem there is not much more than that.

This makes no sense. You are trying to avoid the fact that you asked for evidence, then you provide a subjective statement with no evidence and you want it to be taken as fact. There is no sense to your position, just emotion.

They did take time to make the decision and they made the effort to try and fix it, you are just denying it because it doesn’t suit you, still it’s the factual truth.

I’m not missing any point, I’m questioning your judgement, as someone who has stated that Blizzard is incompetent, you asking them for changed makes no sense whatsoever. And we DO know, but you are trying to steer the boat in a different direction because you know it’s true. And also, if you are “starting to doubt their development team management”, then by all means go play something else, stop wasting your time?

So you say they have the ability to change it but they are incompetent, sure that makes a lot of sense. You are asking an “incompetent” company to do something when you know that their are “incompetent”. Maybe they are not the incompetent ones here, just saying.

But it does, it’s an official statement from Jeff Kaplan himself, you didn’t even bother to go to the link where he posted it in the forums. So you are basically calling him a liar for no other reason that it goes against what you want to happen.

You are lying then, simpe as that, the statement is there, fact. By now you are cornered and have to resort to blatant lies, anyone who watches that video can see that the statement is there.

it is in the video, your denial is just nothing short of unbelievable.

The evidence is right there for anyone to see, again you are lying, trying to save face, but it won’t work, the truth always win.

I’m not the one making up lies and contradicting himself over and over again.

There is no SR system issue, you made it up out of nowhere as a desperate attempt to find a made up reason to validate your argument.

You did acknowledge what i said and didn’t even realized it, another one of your slip ups.

It’s already proven that the SR system had nothing to do with it. You are just creating alternative facts and alternative realities, which will not work.

We do know, they literally told us, again just denial on your part.

It is not an assumption, it is facts. That literally happened we can see it in the balance changes and the time it took for all of that to happen. The decision took time and effort to get to that particular conclusion, it’s a fact.

Again, we do know, you denying it won’t change that. My arguments are based on knowledge of the situation and all the information available, yours is mostly made up and denial of reality.

Again showing that you don’t know what objective means. As you did before, calling the opinions of professional players subjective, but when its from another sources that suits your view then it’s objective. You have no ground on where to stand here, you have proven yourselve to not be rational in this discussion.

The SR system had nothing to do with the matter. As long as its their game they establish the design philosophy, and anything that creates issues with that philosophy is a problem that needs to be addressed, just like mass rez was.

But it is the same thing, you trying to pass it for a “rework” doesn’t make the fundamental issue any different, perhaps you are incapable of understand why, but it is, which is the reason mass rez has not come back nor will it ever.

It won’t we are past that. That situation was already concluded and resolved, the skill was unhealthy and had to go. There is no sense in going back, and there is no rework idea so far that holds any depth to it for Blizzard to even acknowledge it because they know better.

It’s good that you admit it.

They stated the reasons, it’s as simple as that, you denying that is calling them liars just because you don’t like the reality of the situation.

They already reworked the ability, that is why we have it as a single target one. And that is the version that will stick because is the one that works better for the hero and the game.

it isn’t because it did, and the evidence is that it was concluded that it was unhealthy for the game and had to go, and it’s never coming back.

They already reworked the skill and it’s much better now. The fact that some people cannot accept it or deal with it is not their issue, they will not go back to the same problem because of people in denial.

And you are as always, wrong.


#360

As I’ve said, you have not proven that they had any part, behind the scenes, in the removal of mass Res.

Nothing about it is ironic. One actually goes through numbers, explains scenarios and states facts whereas the other is just people claiming something to be unhealthy and saying nothing more.

Not at all.

What? I’m saying that even if you did prove it, it wouldn’t matter. This argument is pointless. Even if you could prove your argument, it doesn’t change a thing. Pros saying something doesn’t mean they are right. Devs saying something doesn’t mean they are right. That in itself is a logical fallacy. As of now, you’re hiding that behind, “logic and common sense”.

You proved that they communicate with pros behind the scenes from time to time. You didn’t prove that they were a major factor when removing mass Res. Need I continue? Like I said, even if you were right, it still wouldn’t help your case.

If the devs have more reason, sure I won’t dismiss them. If it’s just you making up reasons from scratch, don’t be surprised.

I mean, you just replied to your own strawman.

Exactly, the reasons were clearly stated. The reasons I’ve given you. There is really nothing more than that.

I asked for evidence. You provided. Sad news is, it doesn’t prove your assertion. You continue to deny that. At this point, it’s clear that this is just going to be a long battle of denial so I’ll just agree to disagree and move on.

And, again, you’re ignoring what I’m saying and still hiding behind, “it’s the factual truth” when all you did was make an assumption. This is a lost cause.

Your opinion. Not Blizzard’s. Don’t confuse the two.

We don’t. You just suggested that they did.

I know it’s true? I’ll make myself clear:

None of what you said can be taken seriously because none of what you’ve claimed has been explicitly said by Blizzard. You’ve clearly noticed this and even tried to argue with indirect decisions :joy:

If you think development teams can’t redeem themselves, by all means, stop discussing about balance.

As of now, their decision making has been incompetent. That being said, they can fix their mistakes and make good decisions. Can’t believe I have to spell it out for you. :joy:

It makes a lot of sense to ask for a company making bad mistakes to make good decisions. One of the reasons why feedback exists.

hahhaha. This is going to be long.

Making assumptions, I see? I did in fact look at the link…

Nice strawman. I didn’t call him a liar. Like I said, what you provided doesn’t prove your point.

This can go both ways. Which is why I asked for a time frame which, no surprise, you still haven’t provided.

And I asked you to prove it as such since I couldn’t find the quote you supposedly pulled out of the video. You still haven’t provided a time frame. At this point, this claim of yours is moot.

It isn’t. You refused to prove otherwise. What’s that?

Denial?

The evidence is right there. I asked you to show it to me; I asked for a time frame. You’re still refusing to give it. You say the truth always wins when you don’t even want to prove your own truth.

And you’re still making up stuff. Honestly pathetic.

There is… Unless you want to explain why a bad strategy is going to be used without a motive?

I know I did… Then I re-read. Then I realised, you weren’t talking about what I was referring to. Then I took back my comment.

It’s already proven that the SR system had everything to do with it. You are just creating alternative facts and alternative realities, which will not work.

also, another way of saying, I disagree and nothing more

We don’t know. They haven’t told us that pros had a major part to play in the removal of mass Res. This is denial on your part.

It is definitely not a fact. It is most definitely an assumption.

There’s so much denial in this, I don’t even need to make a proper reply to it. :joy: It counters itself.

More denial, I see. Well, I think you know the drill by now.

That or you don’t know what it means. Right now, I’m thinking the latter.

Well, it sorta depends. I have no idea who you’re referring to when you say pros therefore I don’t know what their argument against mass Res is. I will apologies for generalising them though. That being said, it doesn’t change a thing. Titanium’s quoted reply is anything but subjective.

Right back at you.

Just say you disagree and move on. No need to make it more complicating than it needs to be.

And they were absolutely right. Hiding is bad in terms of design. The point is “Hide n Res” wasn’t the cause of her design. It was almost entirely to do with the SR system. I even prove it as such to which you just dismissed. I’ll repeat them. “Hide n Res” is strategically bad. It’s a sure-fire way of losing the fight. No sane person is going to use this unless they have some sort of motive behind it. The motive, as we know, is the SR system. That was fixed before her rework. No we don’t need to be concerned about “Hide n Res”. If it’s still an issue, through in balance tweaks to discourage it. Not that it’s even needed. Okay, now I feel bad for myself because I know that you’re just going to think of another way of saying, “I disagree” and dismiss this. :cry:

It was addressed. The problem was literally addressed before the rework went live. Denying it as such is your problem. Not mine.

You didn’t even ask what my rework suggestion is. :joy::joy::joy::joy::joy: You just made an assumption. The rework suggestion I have will completely eradicate “Hide n Res”, not that it’s even an issue.

All of this is being said when I didn’t even tell you what my rework suggestion is. As of now, I’ve only said, “mass Res with tweaks and a new e ability”. I didn’t even elaborate on what said changes are and you’re going to say trash like this…

I don’t care about what you think.

The skill wasn’t unhealthy. The strategy was. The strategy will most definitely never be a thing now. Mass Res didn’t have to go.

Thnak god I don’t want to go back then…

You don’t get to talk on behalf of Blizzard. Ty.

Can’t even recognise sarcasm. :joy:

You literally just used the word, implied, and are now saying that they stated it? Sounds like you’re the one making up lies at this point.

Whole load of opinion here.

It didn’t…

When you make up your own reasons for something’s removal. :eyes:

Can’t relate.

After the rework, there has never been a state where a Mercy is remotely balanced. She’s either always underpowered or always overpowered.

You’re the one that’s in denial. Stop fooling yourself.

Right back at you m8.


This is a whole load of, I disagree, denial and just out-right stupidity so I’ll end this argument and agree to disagree for everything. Replying now will be pointless because I’m officially ignoring you.

Thank you for your time. :blue_heart:


#361
  1. Alpha is not main game.
  2. They never said they’d put valk to rest.

Bored of word play. Reverting remove is add.

It was overpowered. People didn’t like it. They whine about single res because it undoes their kill, not because of the cooldown.

CBA reading that thread.

That’s pretty much exactly the same as old mass res but with added extra power, so its even more unbalanced. So, try again.

So the same as old mass res.

So more CC then. Nah.

It was a valid tactic that worked.

Yes, but that didnt change it being a valid tactic anyways, regardless of SR.

It was a valid tactic that worked. I’m confused how you don’t understand that?


#362

Doesn’t change the fact that they put the ability to rest.

They made it for Mercy, then replaced it with mass Res. Do we really need to argue semantics?

I’m just gonna take this as a victory. :slight_smile:

What even… All you did was ignore what I said…

Not like that matters.

Whole load of denial here. Like I said, single res was so powerful and people whine about it because of the nature of it and how it functions as a CD ability.

Ignoring evidence means you gave up your argument. That’s fine then.

I’m not trying again. All you did was simplify it to a brain dead version to fit your narrative.

It would help if you bothered to read it.

Whole load of biased opinions here and not a lot of constructive feedback.

It was a valid tactic that didn’t work because it inflated your stats. That issue is fixed now. Now, “Hide n Res” is nothing more than a garbage strategy that put your team at a severe disadvantage and relied on enemy incompetence to be successful which proves my point that it’s not a valid tactic now because a strategy that has no real reward and only relies on the enemy to make mistakes is a extremely bad strategy.

It wasn’t a valid tactic. That’s the whole point. Disagreeing doesn’t make me wrong and you right.

I’m confused as to how you even bothered to reply after refusing to read the evidence that completely shoots through your assertion that the strategy was good.


#363

I did prove it, but you are in denial because you cannot seem to accept reality itself, which makes the argument against mass rez even stronger as the players asking for it to come back cannot face the facts, its just an emotional response without any depth or valid reason to it.

You have no numbers, not scenarios and no facts, and it is besides the point that we were arguing in this particular situation, as usual you are trying to redirect the point but it won’t work. I’l reiterate the fact that what others say its only valid to you when it suits you, when it doesn’t then they are wrong, even when it’s about the most skilled and knowleadgeable players in the game.

You are very much, and have showed it time and time again throughout this conversation.

So proving it doesn’t even matter, because you will not accept anything that is not what you want? Please… Again, anything anyone says that you don’t like is wrong, only as long as it pleases you will be right, reminds me of Trump and his alternative facts and reality.

But i did prove it, because the game’s director said that the feedback from them was an important factor, as it is always with any of the balance changes that they make, and this case is no exception.

No one is making up reasons, the reasons are there. If you decide to ignore them because you are incapable of acknowledging anything that doesn’t suit your view, that is you problem, not anyone elses.

Just pointing out your lack of objectivity and reason.

There is no factual evidence of what you say anywhere, on the other hand everything that I say is what Blizzard stated, I’m using the literal facts, you are just making things up from nothing.

Classic, even when presented with clear evidence, you still deny, it only goes to show that there is no reasoning with someone like you, you are just throwing a tantrum because they took something you liked and want it back, there is no reason or logic behind your argument, just emotion.

I’m not making assumptions, I’m stating facts. What you are doing is trying to distort reality itself but that won’t work, we all know what the truth is.

Again trying to redirect the point and its not going to work. You still make no sense, calling them incompetent, then asking them for changes. It literally makes no sense.

It’s a fact.

Everything that i’ve said is a fact, I provided factual evidence, which you just attempted to deny, and it made you look even worse.

They don’t need to “redeem” themselves, because they have done nothing wrong, the decision they made was the right one. You complaining about it doesn’t make it the wrong one, just shows how you are in complete denial.

Again making no sense, believing that they are completely incompetent, but still asking them to do things. Again, the definition of insanity.

Except that the decisions have been the right ones, and little bunch of people complaining is not going to change it.

You didn’t, you still denied that he said something that he clearly said, either you are lying or you didn’t go to the link.

You are in fact calling him a liar with your statement. And it does prove my point, you just cannot seem able to handle the truth.

It’s in the video, right there for everyone to see. And its funny because even if I provide the timeframe you will still say “but but… it doesn’t prove anything because reasons!!!”.

Just to further prove that you are full of it the time frame is 1:44. Right there at the beginning. Again the facts are against you and you have no ground to stand on.

The time frame was provided, and the truth is right there to prove you wrong, yet again.

Nothing i’ve said is made up, it all is literal facts unlike everything you say which are all lies.

It has been proven already that the SR system had nothing to do with it.

Classic, proven wrong then taking things back.

The SR system had nothing to do with this as there is no evidence of that whatsoever. Again with the lies.

We do know you just cannot handle the truth, you prefer to live in denial.

Facts are facts.

The truth hurts huh, you can’t reply because you got nothing on it.

No denial, just facts and truth.

I’m the only one in this discussion providing actual factual evidence and facts. While you are just trying to avoid it and denying everything without any grounds for it other than avoiding reality.

Again calling the opinions of professional players subjective but the opinion of one person objective, all because it doesn’t suit your view, proving again that you have no objectivity whatsoever and will only react emotionally and without any valid logic or reason.

Again the truth hurts, and you got nothing on it, the truth always wins.

Your SR system argument is a blatant lie made up in an attempt at finding something out of nothing to justify your view. There is no evidence of what you say whatsoever and it doesn’t make sense as I have already explained how the system works and it goes completely against what you say. And again trying to redirect the point, first you say it wasn’t a design problem, and now you admit that it is, you change your position so fast that your arguments lose any validity.

It wasn’t and again you throw that lie around without any evidence to back it up.

You have posted it already, and it doesn’t work, you only consider one side of the situation and don’t consider the whole of the context. Your suggestion would not work and it’s easy to see why, it’s no surprise that Blizzard doesn’t even acknowledge it, as it is not a good suggestion.

The ability has already been reworked in the single target rez, that IS the rework, if you don’t like it, that is your problem, not theirs.

Emotional response, yet here you are posting again, which shows you care.

The skill is what gives way to the strategy, again showing that you don’t even understand basics.

No ofc i don’t, they not paying any attention to bad suggestions speaks for itself.

Of course it’s sarcasm, when you get caught making a mistake.

You are distorting the message, classic. The point still stands, they stated the reason and the reasons are perfectly valid as to why it had to go and will never come back.

And yours isn’t of course, because what you say is always the objective truth, as long as it gets you what you want, classic.

Nothing is being made up, just facts and common sense. The game is much better without it.

Right now she is very much balanced. And it’s funny that you mention that because one of the reasons she was a must pick is because of rez, which is now single target, and you want to argue that mass rez would be better? that is just unbelievable.

I’m not the one who keeps asking for something to come back that was removed and resolved ages ago, who is in denial here?

Thas is perfectly fine, I think it’s even better for you as everytime you post you prove more and more that there is no grounds for your argument, you are just hurting your cause. Mass rez is never coming back.


#364

The difference is that they SAID they’d put mass res to rest.

No, because its boring.

Nah, being boring isnt a victory :slight_smile:

Yeah, because it wasnt worth comment. Mass res was overpowered.

Explain to me why the opinions of the players of a game dont matter.

I wasnt denying anything. Having your kill undone is annoying for some people, regardless of CD.

Nah, it means you’re boring.

No, really, your way of fixing mass res was to make it more powerful and make the problem worse. I guess you cant figure out a proper way to fix it.

I read it, its the same.

Constructive feedback: The playerbase is annoyed with so much CC being in the game. I constructively suggest not adding more.

Nah, it was a valid tactic that worked, regardless of SR.

Then how come it worked? Which it did. It was a thing that people did that worked. Um, are you trying to convince me that big res never happened? Or that it was never a good idea? I’m seriously confused here, because it was a thing that actually worked.

You didn’t provide any evidence :slight_smile:


#365

That’s like saying someone killed someone but didn’t say they did…

Then don’t do it. :slight_smile:

My personality doesn’t change the outcome of this argument. :slight_smile:

D E N I A L

Because disliking something doesn’t justify changing that thing unless it truly is a huge concern, which mass res wasn’t.

Well, ofc… Abilities aren’t meant to be fun to play against…

Most definitely not.

You’d realise that there were more drawbacks added than buffs if you read it carefully. To summarise, the rework suggestion that was proposed involves a net decrease in power just for mass Res.

Except the problem; “Hide n Res” is fixed… Their is now no incentive to hide because of how Res works now… Cmon, you ain’t fooling anyone. :slight_smile: I know you didn’t read it. :face_with_hand_over_mouth:

If you read it and still came to this conclusion, the only other explanation is that you’re lying.

Define “playerbase”. Is their proof that the playerbase is annoyed with so much CC? Is their a specific amount of players? You need to elaborate on this.

Rough Translation: I disagree and won’t say why but I will try to mask that by writing it in a different way.

I disagree. That tactic had everything to do with the SR strategy.

Any strategy can work. This particular strategy worked on teams that are incompetent; almost always relied on the enemy team to make mistakes for it to work. That by itself shows that the strategy was bad. If the SR system didn’t support it, the strategy would never have worked.

Because of the SR system. The strategy is bad and doesn’t work without the SR system supporting it.

No? I’m saying “Hide n Res” is a bad strategy because it legitimently is. You’re failing to see that because you refused to read the link I provided explaining why the strategy is bad.

It never was a good idea. Anything other than hiding would be better.

Hiding was maladaptive for the team’s chance of victory, and therefore was a bad way to play her. Allow me to explain this in an even more elaborate manner than my past few megaposts.

The success of a mass-Resurrection (4+ revived players) depended upon several factors:

  • The Mercy’s ability to survive and execute the ability in the first place (the obvious one).
  • The number of players alive on each team after the Resurrection.
  • The number of available ultimates held by each team after the Resurrection (but primarily the enemy team).
  • The shock value of Resurrect against the enemy (by far the most important factor for the post-rez fight).

The last factor is more important than the other two post-rez factors because it determines what other factors need to advantage the Mercy in order to have a good chance at a successful Resurrection. As the enemy team is given time to reorganize and fire their first attacks at the newly Resurrected team, they would already have a positioning advantage and the first shot… that is, if the team was expecting the Resurrection.

If the enemy team is expecting the Resurrection, they will have the post-rez advantages of the first shot and additional positioning time. Of course, this is a very bad situation to be in for the newly revived team, requiring some very strong advantages of their own to compensate and have a chance at winning the fight. In this case, they would need both the numbers advantage and the ultimate ability advantage.

If the enemy team isn’t expecting the Resurrection, then the Mercy could probably get by with either the numbers advantage or the ultimate advantage and still have a chance at winning, as the enemy team might not capitalize on their positioning and first shot opportunities as well as they should due to the shock value of Resurrect.

How does “Hide and rez” fit into all of this, you might ask? Hiding before the fight removes the possibility of having enough of those advantages against the enemy team in the post-rez fight, and therefore any chance of a victorious post-rez fight against any team of similar skill.

Hiding leaves the initial fight to a 5v6, the missing hero on the Mercy’s team being the main healer and primary source of sustain. Obviously, this is a huge advantage for the team of 6 in the first fight, allowing them to steamroll over Mercy’s team with likely zero casualties, and ultimate expenditures used only to counter any of the opposition’s ultimates. On top of this, the team of 6 also now collectively has 2000-3000 more ultimate charge from killing 5 players in addition to any healing dealt over the duration of that fight. Thus, it hands the ultimate ability advantage to the team opposing the Mercy.

The opposing team, assuming they are paying even the slightest attention to what is happening around them, would notice that the enemy is crumbling very easily for a supposed 6v6, raising suspicions as to whether or not the fight really is a 6v6, quickly leading to the realization that the enemy Mercy is missing from the fight. From this, only one conclusion could logically be drawn; she’s waiting to use Resurrect. There goes the ultimate’s shock value.

At this point, even if the team of 6 somehow managed to sustain 2 casualties in the initial fight, it won’t matter. If both teams entered the fight with the same number of ultimates, the team that does not have the hiding Mercy has at least two more ultimates than the other team (2000+ ultimate charge, Mercy’s team used Resurrect). One or two offensive ultimates is the absolute maximum a team needs to wipe a freshly-revived team when they are expecting the Resurrection, resulting in the revived team staring down the barrel of a gun they have no chance of avoiding.

In contrast, a Mercy who stays with her team keeps the fight at a 6v6, granting her team more sustain and forcing the enemy to expend ultimates to overpower them. Once the ultimates started firing, the mercy would distance themselves from the fight, evade, or take cover, laying down pistol fire or amplifying damage rather than attempting to heal those for whom healing would be useless. As a result, the enemy was less likely to realize that Mercy has Resurrect (the enemy was comparatively difficult to kill, removing the prompt to think about why they were crumbling easily in the first place), Mercy’s team was more likely to pick off a few enemies, and Mercy has successfully baited more ultimates from the enemy team. As a result, her team has more advantages and fewer disadvantages in the post-rez fight.

The only cost to staying with the team was an increased chance of being picked off before being able to revive the team, which just follows the same risk choice explained in the Resurrect section; if taking more controllable risks now helps to mitigate the high risk later, then taking those smaller risks now is safer than not in the long run.

Consequently, reviving a team after hiding typically resulted in a second wipe, while staying with the team until it was unsafe to do so was more likely to yield favorable results. That is why it was “wrong to tell a main-healing character to go off and hide somewhere” . It was a bad tactic, as it usually backfired.

Rather than letting the issue resolve itself by fixing the SR exploit that ultimately led to the tactic’s rise in the first place, the developers decided to remove Resurrect as an ultimate entirely. They changed the thing that wasn’t the problem, and ended up pissing off the playerbase.

Another Copy and Paste from Shishter Titanium.

Ignoring evidence doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.


~ Signed
Secretary of the Mercy Ice Cream Movement :ice_cream::chocolate_bar:
BadWidowEU


#366

Nope, its like saying “i’m gonna throw out the trash” then throwing out the trash. They didnt say they’d throw out valk.

I dont think that word means what you think it means :slight_smile:

It was a massive concern, these forums blew up regularly and mercy was pretty much a must pick.

Dude, dont blame me, i’m just trying to explain to you that the CD isnt the unfun, annoying thing, its the ability itself. Personally, i see res as the opposite to being 1 shot, and current res is fine.

Yes, but it doesnt actually change the core problem of mass res having the power to undo an entire team wipe. Your solution didn’t hit that core problem.

How does it fix it? Hiding then coming out and ressing would STILL be a valid tactic with your tweaks. Which part specifically fixes hide and res?

Playerbase = People who play the game.
That includes user feedback from general users, the pros and other online communities.

Well then why was it a valid tactic that people genuinely used to win at playing this computer game? I mean, I HATED doing it, but it still worked. It was a valid tactic.

So you’re saying it worked. Cool. We’re done with that now.

Yeah, imma prune the rest now we’ve established it was a valid tactic.


#367

They deleted it from the game. That is another way of saying they put it to rest…

Think again.

I’m talking about post-rework. :joy:

Still though. CD Res is what made it annoying to play against. The amount of restrictions it has been given suggests this much.

Most definitely not. You can’t compare a killing ability with a reviving ability. The two are completely different. Also, current Res is most definitely not fine. It is the reason the rest of her kit has to suffer; to make room for the power given from Res on E.

That’s not a core problem? :joy: That’s just an “issue” you made up because you dislike the ability.

It doesn’t require dead teammates to use?

Not a valid tactic at all. All the drawbacks makes hiding the worst strategy you could possibly do as Mercy. Cast time means you can’t just jump out of nowhere and Res. LoS means you can’t just Res from walls after hiding. No Invulnerability means you can’t just survive after hiding and reviving your team. That and, hiding is by itself, a strategy that almost always fails unless the enemy is incompetent which in itself, is not likely since Competitive matches you with those with similar skill levels.

I can guarantee you that we don’t know the opinion of 40 million people which is the playerbase. We can’t claim that x is the opinion of the playerbase because finding the opinion of the playerbase is virtually impossible.

It wasn’t a valid tactic. Like I said, if the SR system wasn’t supporting it, the strategy would’ve died faster than Laura Lee’s subscriber after she said the N word. Also, again, people used the strategy because they would’ve noticed their inflated stats after they use the strategy.

I never even did it. I knew it was a garbage strategy to begin with. This is why me and a couple of other GM Mercy’s just stuck with tempo ressed as they are statistically better.

I’m saying it worked against incompetent teams which completely disproves your point that the strategy was viable. Don’t take things out of context.

Cool. I could tell that you really didn’t have much to say after, again, ignoring most of my reply.

After you took something out of context? I’ll repeat myself. It worked against incompetent teams. A strategy that only worked against incompetent teams is obviously a bad strategy. Only a fool would think otherwise. Saying that it worked against incompetent teams is not the same as saying it is viable.


This is quite fun tbh. You’ve yet to provide a decent rebuttal and it looks like you’re still just going to say no and continue to be in denial. Even after this, you think you won this argument. :rofl:


~ Signed
Secretary of the Mercy Ice Cream Movement :ice_cream::chocolate_bar:
BadWidowEU


#368

Here Jeff Kaplan explains why mass rez had to go which included what DrDangerRuss mentions.

And here is why mass resurrect is probably never coming back, professional players hate the mechanic and Blizzard is not going to annoy they pro players by bringing it back.


#369

I’ve seen the video. This:

Was not in it.

That’s not a good enough reason. Hating something doesn’t mean it shouldn’t come back.


~ Signed
Secretary of the Mercy Ice Cream Movement :ice_cream::chocolate_bar:
BadWidowEU


#370

Huh? It’s definitely there, you might have missed it, watch from 140 to 210.

It is for them. The OWL is the golden goose for OW, they have to keep their players happy. And is not the only reason, the skill was creating a bad situation for players as explained here:

h ttps://www.pcgamer.com/why-mercys-resurrect-was-bad-for-overwatch/


#371

Are you talking about, “disheartening to play against”? If so, basically, I disregarded that reason because of two things:

  1. All ultimates when pulled of successfully are disheartening to play against

  2. Jeff only gives a scenario where the enemy team is ult stacking. Ult stacking counters itself so it isn’t mass resses fault that the enemy feels disheartened.

There’s also this reason from Titanium:

Yeah, no. Their biased opinions aren’t more valuable than 40 million other players opinion. Just cuz they dislike it doesn’t mean they get to decide what stays in the game and what doesn’t. Also, might I add, that most of these pros just want Mercy or the Res mechanic as a whole to be deleted from the game; they just don’t like the fact that a “low skill” hero has an ability that can undo their kills. Oh, and Seagull and Taimou have already said that they prefer old Mercy over new one in their respective servers. To paraphrase it, Seagull said it was just a handful of Mercy players that were hiding and Taimou said that it was a problem with the SR system, not mass Res.

I’ve already read this… I was bit disappointed. To summarise, it was just some guy telling us that we should have fun with a hero we’re not having fun with simply because that hero is OP.

Also,


~ Signed
Secretary of the Mercy Ice Cream Movement :ice_cream::chocolate_bar:
BadWidowEU


#373

It’s ok to not agree with them and have your own opinion, but it will do you no good tossing their opinions aside because you don’t agree with them. Put yourself in their shoes for a moment, what do you expect them to think of you and your opinion when you just disregard theirs because you don’t agree with them, they will probably just eyeroll and move on. If you are not going to at the very least meet them half way, don’t expect them to do the same for you.