The "hiding mercy" fallacy


#343

They were complaining about Mercy the most, not the only ones of course, the whole server was complaining about Mercy, which is why she is talked about so much. I am not aware of that article you mention, if you could post the link I will take a look.

I didn’t made it up, it is literally what happened.

It won’t, the sooner you accept it the better it will be for you.


#344

She was not talked about so much before because of “Hide n Res”. It was because of how much skill she takes and how she has such a powerful ultimate for, most pros consider, a low skill hero. They weren’t complaining about “Hide n Res” being uncounterable which is what you are arguing.

I’m referring to how you said that I said that pros are incompetent. I said, most of the time, from what I’ve seen, they’ve essentially complained about their incompetence when dealing with mass Res. That’s absolutely normal. Pro players aren’t perfect.

It can come back. The sooner you accept that, the sooner it will be better for you.


#345

They were talking about hide n rez, and they came to the conclusion that it was an unhealthy skill that needed to go, hence why they removed it and will stay that way.

I didn’t say they were perfect, but the decision to remove mass rez wasn’t taken in a day. It took time and analysis to come to the conclusion that that particular skill wasn’t working with the game, so it had to go.

They already said that it won’t so what you are doing is just being in denial, but you are free to keep asking for it if you want, it won’t happen, but you are free to keep asking all you want.


#346

Nope. The general consensus pros had was that Mercy was skiless and Res as a whole had to go. They even did a IGN video on that. :joy: Pro’s weren’t focused on “Hide n Res”. They were focused on the fact that, in their eyes, a low skill hero has a exceptionally powerful Res mechanic.

That’s cool. Blizz already fixed that before their rework. “Hide n Res” isn’t a problem but that’s not what you were arguing. You were arguing that pros hated it because it was uncounterable. That is objectively false and there’s already enough proof to suggest the contrary. I don’t know about you but I’m sure that evidence that can be applied to everyone is better than individual experiences, even if they are pros because again, pros are not perfect.

Now you’re just appealing to ignorance. I don’t need to address logical fallacies.

They’ve never said this. What you’re doing is misinterpreting what Jeff said to fit your narrative. In which case, I’ll remind you that bringing back mass Res with tweaks and a new e ability is a rework. Not a revert. A revert is to go back to a state that previously existed. Reworked Mass Res and a new e ability is not a revert. I want a rework. Not a rework.

Yes, because it can happen. At least you acknowledged that. :slight_smile:


#347

No, they were very much talking about mass rez, it was a big thing since it was creating issues in the professional scene. This is why Blizzard addressed this and it was removed, things don’t just get removed because there is no issue with them, it’s just common sense.

Hide n rez is and was a problem, it was a faulty design that had to be corrected and luckily it did. Mr. Kaplan mentioned that asking a main healer to stop healing was wrong, and it’s as simple as that.

I would love to see that evidence that proofs without any reasonable doubt that mass rez was perfectly counterable.

I’m not appealing to ignorace, I stated that the decision to take the skill out of the game was carefully made and it took time and thought to come to that conclusion. Are you calling that ignorace?

I am not. They stated without any doubt, that the gameplay that that situation generated was opposed to the design philosophy of the game, it doesn’t get any more clear than that.

What?

I didn’t acknowledge it, you didn’t understand what i said, common mistake so it’s no biggie. I literally said that it won’t happen, that you can ask for it all you want, but it won’t happen. The fact that you can ask for it doesn’t mean there is a chance for it to come back, it just means you are in denial and do not fully comprehend why the skill does not work with the design philosophy of the game and will never return.


#348

Indeed, I acknowledge that in the quoted reply.

You’re making an argument based on something that never has been confirmed. Mercy was never reworked because of this reason. It’s like saying there is no evidence for the existence of aliens so they must exist. Also, it’s a logical fallacy. argumentum ad ignorantiam.

They didn’t address pros concerns at all. Indirectly, yeah, but arguing like that is pretty dumb.

Actually it was an issue but the main one was fixed before her rework and the other was just as you’ve put it, the absence of common sense. The devs think ultimates are supposed to feel good to use for the team against it.

Was a problem. Like I said, they fixed it before her rework went live. The problem would’ve fixed itself way faster if they fixed it way faster. Too put it simply, incompetence at its finest.

Not mass Res. “Hide n Res” which was encouraged by the SR system at the time. Not the design of mass Res.

Yeah, a month before her rework.

Indeed, which is why they fixed the issue before her rework. A rework was not necessary at all.

Firstly, I‘m referring to “Hide n Res”. Secondly, here:

Search up, “appealing to ignorance logical fallacy” in google. All you’re doing is arguing based on something that has never been confirmed.

And I’ve said that they’ve never said that mass Res can’t come back and inform you that the gameplay was encouraged by their faulty SR system at the time rather than mass Res and it’s design.

Revert. Oops. :sweat_smile: I want a rework. Not a revert.

So you didn’t say this?

And I’ve said that it can happen because it quite literally can happen since it hasn’t been dismissed yet. To remind you, I want mass Res to return with tweaks and a new e ability. In other words, a rework.

The fact that it hasn’t been denied yet means that it’s still an option.

Literally not but sure, keep saying that. :joy::joy:

And for some reason, you can’t seem to understand that “Hide n Res” isn’t a design issue but rather an issue that stemmed from an issue with that issue being the SR system at the time.


#349

Jeff Kaplan confirmed it when he talked about how it was creating an unhealthy situation for the game that went against the design philosophy of the game.

She in fact was, the fact that you don’t want to acknowledge it, it’s your own issue, but is a fact that that is the reason she was reworked, as stated by Blizzard.

They did address the concerns and continually do so, they literally have special channels in which the professional players give them feedback and they take that feedback when making balance changes.

Common sense is removing something that is not working as intended, and mass rez was in fact, not working with the design philosophy of the game so it had to go. Jeff Kaplan stated in the developer update that mass rez being capable of denying an entire team fight was no ok and was creating an issue.

I don’t know what you are talking about, how did they fixed it before the rework?

Hide and rez was the result of how the skill mass rez worked, therefore mass rez was not working.

Again, how did they supposedly fixed this?

Except that it was confirmed, you saying that it wasn’t doesn’t make it so, again you are in denial.

This is not evidence, this is a post of a person stating their opinion.

It is implied that it will not comeback as it doesn’t work under the design philosophy of the game its just common sense.

Yes as a matter of fact I did, and in those words i am stating literally that it won’t happen, and that you asking for it doesn’t mean that there is the possibility of it coming back.

I have been arguing about mass rez as we knew it which will never come back. As for a rework, it’s all subjective, you can make the suggestion if you want, but it depends entirely on whether or not Blizzard agrees with it, so far they don’t, rez has been difficult to balance even as a single target as is.

It has already been stated, which means is not coming back.

It’s like you are asking for your dead relative to come back to life. It’s not going to happen.

The issue has nothing to do with SR or the competitive system at all. It was factually stated that this was a gameplay related issue and that it went agains the core design philosophy of the game.


#350

What? I’m talking about this:

Blizzard has never said that she was reworked because the pros disliked it…

I need a link for this. And even then, again, they’ve never said that they reworked Mercy because of pros concerns. You’re still appealing to ignorance.

Like I’ve said, again and again, they’ve fixed it before her rework. Like I’ve said multiple times, the issue would’ve fixed itself if they had fixed the issue earlier.

Do you wanna know why I know that Jeff never said this? Because literally every other ultimate in the game has the potential to deny an entire team fight. Potential is meaningless because that makes every ultimate overpowered.

Well, you see, “Hide n Res” existed because of issues with the SR system at the time. Said SR system encouraged hiding as it artificially inflated their stats. Without the SR system, hiding was very bad and counters itself. Knowing this, the reasonable conclusion as to why people used it is ofc because of the SR system. Now, here comes the interesting part. The SR system was fixed just before her rework. That means the motive behind “Hide n Res” is gone which means it isn’t an issue anyway. If they had fixed the SR system earlier, the strategy would’ve died on its own in which case, Blizzard should not intervene in such things but they did, incompetently and was executed poorly.

Nope. It was the result of the broken SR system at the time which artificially inflated your SR when you hide meaning, it made hiding a good thing.

It has been confirmed that it didn’t take less than a day to make decisions to remove Res and that it was removed because pros didn’t like it? Well then, I would like links pls.

Loool, are you serious? All of the above that proves my point is objective.

And as I’ve said a dozen times, it is not a design issue. The issue is fixed! Stop it with “Hide n Res”… And again, arguing like this is pointless because indirect things Blizzard does can suggest a lot of ridiculous things. At that point, you’re just speculating.

OMG… I really need to spell it out for you. I’m acknowledging he fact that you said that I can continue to ask for mass Res back.

They’ve literally never said that mass Res won’t ever come back.

Change this to:
so far, I don’t.

Never been stated. Provide a quote if you must but I’ve already dismissed the obvious ones people misinterpret.

Garbage comparison. Unlike reviving the actual dead, the devs still can bring back mass Res.

It actually had everything to do with the SR system and competitive. Also, I don’t know about you but I find it dubious at best that they’d balance around casual play.

It is not a fact if they don’t prove it as such. All they did is state it. In which case, this is just a classic case of the Appeal to Authority Fallacy. Unlike the devs who just said it was encouraged by the design of her ultimate and saying nothing more, people actually provided evidence to prove the contrary.


#351

The professional players argued that the skill was not working well with the compettive nature of the game which was a big factor in Blizzard taking the actions that they did. So it was in fact a big part of why it happened.

h ttps://dotesports.com/overwatch/news/blizzard-overwatch-feedback-17480

There it is. Also, again I’m not appealing to ignorance, I’m appealing to common sense and logic. The skill was removed because that is the conclusion that they arrived to after careful consideration, which included the professional scene suffering from it.

You say that they fixed her before the rework but not how so, as far as I know they didn’t “fix” her before the rework, the rework itself was the fix.

h ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDlCqJ1tD3M

Here it is, you are again, mistaken.

This is actually factually wrong. It’s the complete opposite, the SR system works in a way that the more you do the more it rewards you at least below Diamond, and at the time, this restriction to Diamond didn’t exist so, the more you hide the less the system would reward you. This is why supports used to complain about how support heroes were receiving less SR from wins. Therefore the conclusion is that the SR system has nothing to do, add to that the fact that Blizzard literally stated that it was a gamplay concern that went against the design philosophy of the game.

The confirmation is the fact that Blizzard acted upon it. Action is the confirmation itself as it shows that Blizzard came to the conclusion that this skill was unhealthy for the game. And as all decisions, it was carefully made since they took their time trying other changes before arriving to the conclusion that it had to go.

No, it’s still a subjective opinion from a person, there is no evidence in there about mass rez not being unhealthy for the game.

But it was a design issue, it’s just common sense, things don’t get removed because nothing is wrong with them. Again, you are in denial.

You argued that it was possible for it to come back, not for you to ask for it. It won’t come back, but you are free to ask for it if you want.

it is implied in their actions and their statements about it. Old mass rez will never, ever come back. As for an alternative, it’s just speculation, tons of ideas have been thrown at it since the skill was removed, none of them have had enough weight to it for Blizzard to even acknowledge it.

And it would break the game again which makes no sense, why would we make the same mistake twice? Again it’s common sense.

Already stated that it wasnt.

First you say that they didn’t state it and now that they did state it.

No, its just how it happened and how common sense works. Anything else would be “alternative facts” and “alternative realities”.

There was no evidence whatsoever, it was all subjective opinions which are perfectly valid, still not evidence.


#352

It quite literally isn’t. They haven’t said this at all. They’ve only said, as of now, that they reworked Mercy because of “Hide n Res” and “Disheartening to play against”.

This proves that they listen to pros feedback. This doesn’t prove that they were a big reason as to why Mercy was reworked.

Stop reading it word for word. Look up the fallacy definion.

All of this has not been confirmed. For all we know, they could’ve just spend a day at thinking about this decision and we literally do not know if the pro scene was also a main reason.

I’ve already explained it.

Give me a time frame where they say mass res being capable of denying an entire team fight is not okay? Even if it was said, which, hint, it wasn’t, that would be the biggest double standard this game has ever encountered from the devs.

You keep saying this. I don’t think you know what it means.

:joy:

There were 2 issues with the SR issue including the one you just stated. To summarise, playing Mercy, at the time, artificially inflated your stats one way or another.

Yeah, no. If the strategy was bad and had no real benefits unless you want to rely on teammates to make mistakes to win, no one will ever use such a garbage strategy. With that in mind, the only logical conclusion is that the one redeeming quality about the strategy, the broken SR system, was the only issue that caused “Hide n Res”.

That’s called making an assumption.

Saying that the decision took more than a day is an assumption.

Appeal to Ignorance (argumentum ad ignorantiam)

Any time ignorance is used as a major premise in support of an argument, it’s liable to be a fallacious appeal to ignorance. Naturally, we are all ignorant of many things, but it is cheap and manipulative to allow this unfortunate aspect of the human condition to do most of our heavy lifting in an argument.

Interestingly, this fallacy is often used to bolster multiple contradictory conclusions at once. Consider the following two claims: “No one has ever been able to prove definitively that extra-terrestrials exist, so they must not be real.” “No one has ever been able to prove definitively that extra-terrestrials do not exist, so they must be real.” If the same argument strategy can support mutually exclusive claims, then it’s not a good argument strategy.

Ignorance isn’t proof of anything except that one doesn’t know something. If no one has proven the non-existence of ghosts or flying saucers, that’s hardly proof that those things either exist or don’t exist. If we don’t know whether they exist, then we don’t know that they do exist or that they don’t exist. Ignorance doesn’t prove any claim to knowledge.

You clearly didn’t read it… It is all objective.

It isn’t a design issue just cuz the devs say it is.

Which, as of now, you’re lacking.

Unless, wait for it, incompetence!

Pot meet kettle?

Indeed. I argued that it’s return is still a possibility since it hasn’t been denied that. I also acknowledge that you acknowledged the fact that you said that I’m allowed to continue suggesting it to which I replied, agreeing with you and exemplifying on what you said.

Already said that arguing like this is pointless. Indirect actions can suggest anything… This is, again, just you speculating.

Thank god I’m not arguing that then. I’m saying that mass Res in a new form with a new e ability, in other words. a rework is a possibility.

Nice hyperbole.

Because the actual mistake isn’t mass Res but rather, the SR system which I’ve said a couple hundred times.

Funny coming from you tbh.

The fact that the devs said that they believed it was a design issue? Yeah, sorry if I did. Besides, not like it matters.

Committing a logical fallacy is not common sense. Stahp. XD Like i said, saying it’s a fact because the devs said it is a logical fallacy.

You don’t know what subjective means. What do you want me to do about to that?


#353

Mass Rez is gone. It’s never coming back. Get. Over. It.


#354

The professional scene is and has always been a big factor in the balance decisions that they make, and since the professional scene gave them feedback that said mass rez was unhealthy for the game then it is a factor that is very relevant to the matter.

So first you deny that the channel existed and now it doesn’t prove that it was why Mercy got reworked, it seems more like you are trying too hard to avoid the reality of the situation. Except that it does as I’ve already stated above, it was one of the reasons why it got reworked.

I know the definition, that is how I know I am not incurring in it.

So you talk a lot about evidence of things how it proves this or that, and now you make an argument that doesn’t include evidence of anything, only your speculation that they might or might have not spend a day thinking about it, even thought it doesn’t make any sense whatsoever and it is only a desperate attempt at not acknowledging the reality of the situation. If you think Blizzard is the kind of company that will spend a day thinking about something then make a rushed decision like that, why are you wasting your time trying to argue the case about mass rez, when you already know they are extremely incompetent and their decision making is absolutely terrible?

We do know, you just don’t want to accept it.

You didn’t.

The video is right there anre he does literally factually say it. The fact that you don’t even want to actually watch it shows how much in denial you are about it. You just don’t want to admit that you are wrong, still he does say it and no, it is not a double standard just because you say so, it is just reality and common sense.

I do know, perfectly well.

Is that what it comes to?

No, it didn’t it was the opposite of that. You already acknowledge it by stating that what I said is true, therefore stating that the SR system had nothing to do with the action.

The SR system has nothing to do with the issue of mass rez as I have already stated, you are trying to deny reality itself by going against the facts.

No, it’s called a conclusion. The action was determined by their assessment of the situation, therefore is confirmation of it.

But it isn’t. It’s a logical conclusion based on facts.

You should probably read it yourself. Ignorace is the lack of knowledge and information, everything that I argue is based on both, and facts.

It isn’t, you don’t know what objective means.

It literally is. Since it is their game, they establish the design philosophy around it, therefore when something goes against that philosophy, it is literally a design problem.

I have already proven you mistaken on multiple occasions, I have demonstrated that I am not the one with a lack of it.

This reads “I don’t like what they did, therefore they are incompetent”.

I am not the one in denial, everything around the situation supports my argument. You on the other hand are asking for something that was removed and resolved a long time ago. As Einstein stated “the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result”. Mass rez hasn’t come back and it will not come back, no matter how much you ask for it.

You argued that I said it could still come back, I didn’t. You were trying to put “words into my mouth”. I simply stated again to clarify that I hadn’t stated that.

It is not speculating when they literally state the reasons for the rework, which they did. And then their actions support this, it’s just a train of thought and common sense.

As i stated, there has not been any suggestion that has any validity on how mass rez could come back, unless Blizzard says otherwise it is just the opinion of a person.

It is not a hyperbole, if you decide to put your finger into the fire expecting not to get burned then you are just making the same mistake again and not learning from it.

That is false, the SR system has nothing to do with it.

I guess it doesn’t matter when it doesn’t suit you.

There is no logical fallacy going on here, its just facts and common sense. There is an issue and the issue needs to be addressed. The issue was addressed and we learn from it so that we do not make the same mistake again.

I do know, that is how I know that there is literally no evidence saying otherwise, only the subjective opinions of people.


#357

I’m a game developer, there’s a massive difference between alpha and release. You get to mess about and make bigger changes in alpha, whereas in release, you need to be incredibly careful and really commit to your changes, because the entire active playerbase will see them and test them in anger (literal anger).

So, they laid the idea of mass res to rest. Reverting the removal would be re-adding mass res.

No.

Undoing 5 team-mates deaths was overpowered, even before invincibility. People STILL whine about a single res.

Please, tell me how you’d balance it, i’m interested to hear.

Nah, i’m referring to hide and res that was a valid tactic, and people only discovered the SR system was broken afterwards. We also discovered the SR system was STILL broken after that, and mercy was getting less SR than she should have. Either way, the problem wasnt res, it was SR.


#358

Alas, you still can’t confirm that they had any part in the decision of removing mass Res. Besides, feedback is feedback. It is just a bunch of subjective opinions thrown around that apparently have more merit because pros are saying it. The reality is, feedback is only more important if it can be proven and is reliable.

It’s more like, I didn’t even know. And then, when I did find out, it still wouldn’t matter because it doesn’t confirm your assertion that they, behind the scenes, had some part in the removal of mass res.

As of now, the two reasons are “Hide n Res” and “Disheartening to play against”. Why only these two? Because these are the two reasons the devs explicitly stated. Sure, there may be more, but I could care less about those since those reasons, since the devs didn’t mention it, were clearly not the reason why she was reworked.

The whole point is, we don’t know. That’s why we. Nvm, you should stop making arguments based on stuff that we can’t know since it hasn’t been stated or confirmed yet. Work with what you’re given.

Making arguments out of, “they took a lot of time to think about the decisions but they haven’t said this but it makes sense to me” does not make sense imo.

You’re completely missing the point. Like I said, we wouldn’t know so we should stop arguing about it. Just to answer this though, given their trend of “balance” changes, I really am starting to doubt their development team management.

Because they have the ability to change that anytime they want. Also, after all, they are employed as developers. You’d think that they’d need to start making competent decisions soon.

We don’t. Linking a thread where Jeff claimed that pros and devs talk in private chats does not prove that they had any involvement behind the scenes with the removal of mass res.

Refusing to agree with it does not mean it doesn’t exist.

I know the video is there. I asked for a timeframe. I’ve already went through the video and couldn’t find, “mass Res being capable of denying an entire team fight is not okay.

Lmfao, I’ve already watched it multiple times. Still making assumptions I see. Anyway, back on topic, you made a quote out of nothing. It isn’t in the video.

He doesn’t. I asked you to improve the evidence you provided. You haven’t done it yet. What’s that I smell?

Denial?

Your reality is skewed and distorted and hiding behind common sense when it doesn’t even help your position is pathetic.

Evidently not.

If this is what this argument is worth, then yeah.

No? Their was 2 real SR issues with the SR system which mostly affected Mercy.

Re-read the list of replies. Yeah, nvm, I’m not referring to what you’re talking about. Anyway, there were still issues to the SR system that again, artificially inflated your SR. And again, it doesn’t matter anymore because that was fixed long ago.

No.

The SR system had everything to do with the issue of mass res as I have already stated. You are trying to deny reality itself by going against facts.

(honestly, saying you disagree in a different and long way is a bad way of arguing)

Again, we don’t know what they “assessed”. Saying that they talked with pros and listened to them, deeming mass Res unhealthy is still an assumption. Saying they changed it so you must be right is not confirmation of anything. All you did was give more supposed reasons as to why mass Res was removed after it was removed.

It is an assumption. Like I said a couple of times which you’ve ignored thus far and I can tell that you’re going to continue saying “I disagree” in different iterations, we don’t know how long it took for them to make the decision. We should not be making arguments based on stuff we don’t know.

but… they… even give an. Example… Okay, well basically, saying that the devs deemed mass res as unhealthy because they had chats with Bliz in private chats is bad because we, again, don’t know if they had a part to play in the removal of mass Res. Saying that they did and basing your argument of that is what the above is saying.

And you don’t know what subjective or objective means. I’ll givr you a clue, Titanium’s quoted reply is objective. It even throws in numbers :joy:.

And that’s a logical fallacy. Don’t take the devs word as gospel.

It’s there game but they, again, can be wrong too… And again, “Hide n Res” was a result of the faulty SR system at the time and misinformed players. It was a playerbase and SR issue rather than a design issue. Are you in denial or what?

You got me there. I started laughing when you said, “multiple”.

Read it again.

Ironic because this screams, “I am in denial!”

Another hyperbole.

Nope. Like I said, I don’t want a revert.

Thank god it’s not the same thing then… Did you miss the part where I said that I don’t want a revert? I want a rework or the removal of Resurrect. Also, whilst we’re on the topic of Einston, scientists actually do have to repeat their experiments a dozen times just to make sure that the results are accurate.

Mass Res can come back and asking for it’s return can persuade the devs to bring it back with balance changes to make it more balanced.

I didn’t. I even tell you that I didn’t. Totally not denial btw. Totally just me being in denial.

You literally use the word implied… Let’s bring up a definition:

suggested but not directly expressed; implicit.

Blizzard as of now, haven’t denied any version of mass Res other than the one before her rework. With that in mind, I can suggest balance changes for Mercy to my hearts content. With mass Res or not.

It is a hyperbole if you’re going to claim that mass Res “broke the game”.

False, the SR system was the main cause of “Hide n Res”.

More like, just saying something doesn’t mean it’s true.

D E N I A L

This is starting to get boring now…

That’s alright, it was already addressed. If they really wanted to go over-the-top, just throw in a couple of tweaks and your done. A rework? Hell no.

Exactly, we learned from it. Which is why I’m suggesting mass Res with tweaks and a new e ability. We learned that old Mercy clearly had problems. One of which was fixed before a month, but she still had some issues. These issues are why people suggest bringing back mass Res with changes. We improvise based on what clearly flopped before.

I’m here to tell you that you don’t…


Whole load of denial here, amirite?

Explain how this changes the fact that they already put Valkyrie to rest: they already removed it beforehand and then brought back the concept 2 years later.

No, just a revert. Reverting isn’t the only way of bringing back mass Res. Also, might I add, just re-adding mass Res is not a revert. A revert is to go back to a previously existing state. Mass Res with tweaks is not a revert. It is a rework. Mass Res with no changes and her kit gets reverted back to the old one is a revert.

Yes, actually.

Firstly, the power of mass Res was incredibly inconsistent and was entirely dependant on the situation. Secondly, tempo ressing is more powerful than getting a 5 man. Thirdly, like I said wasn’t overpowered. Mercy was underpowered with it and was given Invulnerability and only then did she start to become remotely viable. Fourthly, people whine about single Res because it’s on a short CD. I’m just going to assume that you just forgot to add in the context. :wink:

Also, I’d you want a longer read that’s better than what I said, here:


It will take atleast an hour or maybe a little bit less to read.


Valkyrie:

  • Removed.

Resurrect:

  • Removed as a basic ability and placed as Mercy’s ultimate ability.
  • 15 meter range.
  • Line of sight requirement. Does not apply to destructibles, payloads, or non-fundamental map obstacles that are too small to actually obscure a player. In other words, none of that BS where a player can move behind a lamp post to evade a nuclear explosion.
  • 1 second cast time. Basic movement is unrestricted while casting, but all attacks and abilities are disabled for Mercy during this time.
  • If Mercy is stunned or killed while casting, Resurrect does not activate and Mercy loses all ultimate charge.
  • All living allies within range and LoS of Mercy once the cast time ends receive a burst heal of 150 HP. Mercy also receives this burst heal.
  • All dead allies within range and LoS of Mercy once the cast time ends are revived at full health and receive 2.25 seconds of invulnerability (same as current Resurrect and Resurrect pre-rework).
  • Mercy does not receive invulnerability upon Resurrect’s activation.
  • Resurrect does not require dead allies to be activated.
  • 1625 ultimate charge requirement (the same as Mercy 1.x’s Resurrect).

Most importantly, this takes Resurrect off one of Mercy’s basic abilities and places it into a position that matches its ultimate-like behavior. On top of this, various trade-offs were made to the ability to allow for the healing burst and the introduction of a second basic ability.

The healing burst, post-rez vulnerability, cast time, and LoS requirements all incentivise using Resurrect to revive 0-3 players rather than 4+ players. Attempting to use it on four or more players runs a greater risk a failed resurrect attempt due to the cast time. If Mercy manages to use Resurrect, there is a greater chance that she missed some allies due to the LoS requirement. If those two drawbacks do not drag her team down enough, there is also the fact that Mercy is vulnerable post-rez while her teammates are still reviving.

The healing burst and fire-at-will mechanics on Resurrect make the ability more flexible and open up some unique uses for it. For example, Mercy could use Resurrect to grant her team a burst of healing in the middle of the teamfight to keep their momentum going rather than waiting for an ally to rejoin the fight after being killed and revived.

New Basic Ability - Pacify:

  • After a .5 second wind-up, Mercy launches a single hitscan attack from her left hand.
  • The projectile’s hitbox size resembles that of Symmetra’s secondary fire.
  • The projectile deals no damage upon impact with an enemy. Instead, it applies a debuff that reduces the base damage dealt by the target by 33%. 100 damage is reduced to 67 damage before other damage amplifiers/reductions are factored in.
  • This debuff lasts for 4 seconds.
  • The projectile does not persist once it hits an enemy. It is only able to affect one enemy for each use.
  • The projectile is blocked by barriers, Defense Matrix, and Particle Barriers. It can be deflected by Genji’s Deflect ability.
  • 10 second cooldown. The cooldown begins after the ability is cast.
  • There is a .25 second wind-down time after Pacify is launched.
  • During the wind-up and wind-down times, Mercy is not able to use her staff, her pistol, or Resurrect. She may use Guardian Angel, however.
  • Does not affect non-player entities and constructs (turrets, Rip-Tire, Supercharger, etc).

^^^
This suggestion from Titanium would be fine.

Wasn’t unless your goal was to get wiped again. Hiding puts your team in a disadvantageous situation and is detrimental to your team’s chances of winning the match.

People would notice that their SR started to inflate when they used the strategy.

Yes, the problem was the SR. No sane person is going to willingly use a bad strategy that is almost guaranteed to fail unless the enemy is incompetent.


#359

I already confirmed it, because it was part of their decision making. Also it’s very ironic that you mention how the feedback of professional players is just a bunch of subjective opinions, but when it comes to the post that you mentioned before, it was objective. This only shows how you are cherry picking arguments to suit your, it’s good when it suits you but it’s bad when it doesn’t.

So now you argue ignorance, who was the one talking about ignorace before? Yes, that is you, you are the one arguing from ignorance, and falling repeatedly on your own feet. What is important here is showing how you change stances, as I demonstrated first you deny then when its confirmed you deny again.

So if there in fact are more reasons, which I’m not saying there are, you will just dismisse them? That sounds like a great decision making process. The reasons were clearly stated and the actions taken solved the problem there is not much more than that.

This makes no sense. You are trying to avoid the fact that you asked for evidence, then you provide a subjective statement with no evidence and you want it to be taken as fact. There is no sense to your position, just emotion.

They did take time to make the decision and they made the effort to try and fix it, you are just denying it because it doesn’t suit you, still it’s the factual truth.

I’m not missing any point, I’m questioning your judgement, as someone who has stated that Blizzard is incompetent, you asking them for changed makes no sense whatsoever. And we DO know, but you are trying to steer the boat in a different direction because you know it’s true. And also, if you are “starting to doubt their development team management”, then by all means go play something else, stop wasting your time?

So you say they have the ability to change it but they are incompetent, sure that makes a lot of sense. You are asking an “incompetent” company to do something when you know that their are “incompetent”. Maybe they are not the incompetent ones here, just saying.

But it does, it’s an official statement from Jeff Kaplan himself, you didn’t even bother to go to the link where he posted it in the forums. So you are basically calling him a liar for no other reason that it goes against what you want to happen.

You are lying then, simpe as that, the statement is there, fact. By now you are cornered and have to resort to blatant lies, anyone who watches that video can see that the statement is there.

it is in the video, your denial is just nothing short of unbelievable.

The evidence is right there for anyone to see, again you are lying, trying to save face, but it won’t work, the truth always win.

I’m not the one making up lies and contradicting himself over and over again.

There is no SR system issue, you made it up out of nowhere as a desperate attempt to find a made up reason to validate your argument.

You did acknowledge what i said and didn’t even realized it, another one of your slip ups.

It’s already proven that the SR system had nothing to do with it. You are just creating alternative facts and alternative realities, which will not work.

We do know, they literally told us, again just denial on your part.

It is not an assumption, it is facts. That literally happened we can see it in the balance changes and the time it took for all of that to happen. The decision took time and effort to get to that particular conclusion, it’s a fact.

Again, we do know, you denying it won’t change that. My arguments are based on knowledge of the situation and all the information available, yours is mostly made up and denial of reality.

Again showing that you don’t know what objective means. As you did before, calling the opinions of professional players subjective, but when its from another sources that suits your view then it’s objective. You have no ground on where to stand here, you have proven yourselve to not be rational in this discussion.

The SR system had nothing to do with the matter. As long as its their game they establish the design philosophy, and anything that creates issues with that philosophy is a problem that needs to be addressed, just like mass rez was.

But it is the same thing, you trying to pass it for a “rework” doesn’t make the fundamental issue any different, perhaps you are incapable of understand why, but it is, which is the reason mass rez has not come back nor will it ever.

It won’t we are past that. That situation was already concluded and resolved, the skill was unhealthy and had to go. There is no sense in going back, and there is no rework idea so far that holds any depth to it for Blizzard to even acknowledge it because they know better.

It’s good that you admit it.

They stated the reasons, it’s as simple as that, you denying that is calling them liars just because you don’t like the reality of the situation.

They already reworked the ability, that is why we have it as a single target one. And that is the version that will stick because is the one that works better for the hero and the game.

it isn’t because it did, and the evidence is that it was concluded that it was unhealthy for the game and had to go, and it’s never coming back.

They already reworked the skill and it’s much better now. The fact that some people cannot accept it or deal with it is not their issue, they will not go back to the same problem because of people in denial.

And you are as always, wrong.


#360

As I’ve said, you have not proven that they had any part, behind the scenes, in the removal of mass Res.

Nothing about it is ironic. One actually goes through numbers, explains scenarios and states facts whereas the other is just people claiming something to be unhealthy and saying nothing more.

Not at all.

What? I’m saying that even if you did prove it, it wouldn’t matter. This argument is pointless. Even if you could prove your argument, it doesn’t change a thing. Pros saying something doesn’t mean they are right. Devs saying something doesn’t mean they are right. That in itself is a logical fallacy. As of now, you’re hiding that behind, “logic and common sense”.

You proved that they communicate with pros behind the scenes from time to time. You didn’t prove that they were a major factor when removing mass Res. Need I continue? Like I said, even if you were right, it still wouldn’t help your case.

If the devs have more reason, sure I won’t dismiss them. If it’s just you making up reasons from scratch, don’t be surprised.

I mean, you just replied to your own strawman.

Exactly, the reasons were clearly stated. The reasons I’ve given you. There is really nothing more than that.

I asked for evidence. You provided. Sad news is, it doesn’t prove your assertion. You continue to deny that. At this point, it’s clear that this is just going to be a long battle of denial so I’ll just agree to disagree and move on.

And, again, you’re ignoring what I’m saying and still hiding behind, “it’s the factual truth” when all you did was make an assumption. This is a lost cause.

Your opinion. Not Blizzard’s. Don’t confuse the two.

We don’t. You just suggested that they did.

I know it’s true? I’ll make myself clear:

None of what you said can be taken seriously because none of what you’ve claimed has been explicitly said by Blizzard. You’ve clearly noticed this and even tried to argue with indirect decisions :joy:

If you think development teams can’t redeem themselves, by all means, stop discussing about balance.

As of now, their decision making has been incompetent. That being said, they can fix their mistakes and make good decisions. Can’t believe I have to spell it out for you. :joy:

It makes a lot of sense to ask for a company making bad mistakes to make good decisions. One of the reasons why feedback exists.

hahhaha. This is going to be long.

Making assumptions, I see? I did in fact look at the link…

Nice strawman. I didn’t call him a liar. Like I said, what you provided doesn’t prove your point.

This can go both ways. Which is why I asked for a time frame which, no surprise, you still haven’t provided.

And I asked you to prove it as such since I couldn’t find the quote you supposedly pulled out of the video. You still haven’t provided a time frame. At this point, this claim of yours is moot.

It isn’t. You refused to prove otherwise. What’s that?

Denial?

The evidence is right there. I asked you to show it to me; I asked for a time frame. You’re still refusing to give it. You say the truth always wins when you don’t even want to prove your own truth.

And you’re still making up stuff. Honestly pathetic.

There is… Unless you want to explain why a bad strategy is going to be used without a motive?

I know I did… Then I re-read. Then I realised, you weren’t talking about what I was referring to. Then I took back my comment.

It’s already proven that the SR system had everything to do with it. You are just creating alternative facts and alternative realities, which will not work.

also, another way of saying, I disagree and nothing more

We don’t know. They haven’t told us that pros had a major part to play in the removal of mass Res. This is denial on your part.

It is definitely not a fact. It is most definitely an assumption.

There’s so much denial in this, I don’t even need to make a proper reply to it. :joy: It counters itself.

More denial, I see. Well, I think you know the drill by now.

That or you don’t know what it means. Right now, I’m thinking the latter.

Well, it sorta depends. I have no idea who you’re referring to when you say pros therefore I don’t know what their argument against mass Res is. I will apologies for generalising them though. That being said, it doesn’t change a thing. Titanium’s quoted reply is anything but subjective.

Right back at you.

Just say you disagree and move on. No need to make it more complicating than it needs to be.

And they were absolutely right. Hiding is bad in terms of design. The point is “Hide n Res” wasn’t the cause of her design. It was almost entirely to do with the SR system. I even prove it as such to which you just dismissed. I’ll repeat them. “Hide n Res” is strategically bad. It’s a sure-fire way of losing the fight. No sane person is going to use this unless they have some sort of motive behind it. The motive, as we know, is the SR system. That was fixed before her rework. No we don’t need to be concerned about “Hide n Res”. If it’s still an issue, through in balance tweaks to discourage it. Not that it’s even needed. Okay, now I feel bad for myself because I know that you’re just going to think of another way of saying, “I disagree” and dismiss this. :cry:

It was addressed. The problem was literally addressed before the rework went live. Denying it as such is your problem. Not mine.

You didn’t even ask what my rework suggestion is. :joy::joy::joy::joy::joy: You just made an assumption. The rework suggestion I have will completely eradicate “Hide n Res”, not that it’s even an issue.

All of this is being said when I didn’t even tell you what my rework suggestion is. As of now, I’ve only said, “mass Res with tweaks and a new e ability”. I didn’t even elaborate on what said changes are and you’re going to say trash like this…

I don’t care about what you think.

The skill wasn’t unhealthy. The strategy was. The strategy will most definitely never be a thing now. Mass Res didn’t have to go.

Thnak god I don’t want to go back then…

You don’t get to talk on behalf of Blizzard. Ty.

Can’t even recognise sarcasm. :joy:

You literally just used the word, implied, and are now saying that they stated it? Sounds like you’re the one making up lies at this point.

Whole load of opinion here.

It didn’t…

When you make up your own reasons for something’s removal. :eyes:

Can’t relate.

After the rework, there has never been a state where a Mercy is remotely balanced. She’s either always underpowered or always overpowered.

You’re the one that’s in denial. Stop fooling yourself.

Right back at you m8.


This is a whole load of, I disagree, denial and just out-right stupidity so I’ll end this argument and agree to disagree for everything. Replying now will be pointless because I’m officially ignoring you.

Thank you for your time. :blue_heart:


#361
  1. Alpha is not main game.
  2. They never said they’d put valk to rest.

Bored of word play. Reverting remove is add.

It was overpowered. People didn’t like it. They whine about single res because it undoes their kill, not because of the cooldown.

CBA reading that thread.

That’s pretty much exactly the same as old mass res but with added extra power, so its even more unbalanced. So, try again.

So the same as old mass res.

So more CC then. Nah.

It was a valid tactic that worked.

Yes, but that didnt change it being a valid tactic anyways, regardless of SR.

It was a valid tactic that worked. I’m confused how you don’t understand that?


#362

Doesn’t change the fact that they put the ability to rest.

They made it for Mercy, then replaced it with mass Res. Do we really need to argue semantics?

I’m just gonna take this as a victory. :slight_smile:

What even… All you did was ignore what I said…

Not like that matters.

Whole load of denial here. Like I said, single res was so powerful and people whine about it because of the nature of it and how it functions as a CD ability.

Ignoring evidence means you gave up your argument. That’s fine then.

I’m not trying again. All you did was simplify it to a brain dead version to fit your narrative.

It would help if you bothered to read it.

Whole load of biased opinions here and not a lot of constructive feedback.

It was a valid tactic that didn’t work because it inflated your stats. That issue is fixed now. Now, “Hide n Res” is nothing more than a garbage strategy that put your team at a severe disadvantage and relied on enemy incompetence to be successful which proves my point that it’s not a valid tactic now because a strategy that has no real reward and only relies on the enemy to make mistakes is a extremely bad strategy.

It wasn’t a valid tactic. That’s the whole point. Disagreeing doesn’t make me wrong and you right.

I’m confused as to how you even bothered to reply after refusing to read the evidence that completely shoots through your assertion that the strategy was good.


#363

I did prove it, but you are in denial because you cannot seem to accept reality itself, which makes the argument against mass rez even stronger as the players asking for it to come back cannot face the facts, its just an emotional response without any depth or valid reason to it.

You have no numbers, not scenarios and no facts, and it is besides the point that we were arguing in this particular situation, as usual you are trying to redirect the point but it won’t work. I’l reiterate the fact that what others say its only valid to you when it suits you, when it doesn’t then they are wrong, even when it’s about the most skilled and knowleadgeable players in the game.

You are very much, and have showed it time and time again throughout this conversation.

So proving it doesn’t even matter, because you will not accept anything that is not what you want? Please… Again, anything anyone says that you don’t like is wrong, only as long as it pleases you will be right, reminds me of Trump and his alternative facts and reality.

But i did prove it, because the game’s director said that the feedback from them was an important factor, as it is always with any of the balance changes that they make, and this case is no exception.

No one is making up reasons, the reasons are there. If you decide to ignore them because you are incapable of acknowledging anything that doesn’t suit your view, that is you problem, not anyone elses.

Just pointing out your lack of objectivity and reason.

There is no factual evidence of what you say anywhere, on the other hand everything that I say is what Blizzard stated, I’m using the literal facts, you are just making things up from nothing.

Classic, even when presented with clear evidence, you still deny, it only goes to show that there is no reasoning with someone like you, you are just throwing a tantrum because they took something you liked and want it back, there is no reason or logic behind your argument, just emotion.

I’m not making assumptions, I’m stating facts. What you are doing is trying to distort reality itself but that won’t work, we all know what the truth is.

Again trying to redirect the point and its not going to work. You still make no sense, calling them incompetent, then asking them for changes. It literally makes no sense.

It’s a fact.

Everything that i’ve said is a fact, I provided factual evidence, which you just attempted to deny, and it made you look even worse.

They don’t need to “redeem” themselves, because they have done nothing wrong, the decision they made was the right one. You complaining about it doesn’t make it the wrong one, just shows how you are in complete denial.

Again making no sense, believing that they are completely incompetent, but still asking them to do things. Again, the definition of insanity.

Except that the decisions have been the right ones, and little bunch of people complaining is not going to change it.

You didn’t, you still denied that he said something that he clearly said, either you are lying or you didn’t go to the link.

You are in fact calling him a liar with your statement. And it does prove my point, you just cannot seem able to handle the truth.

It’s in the video, right there for everyone to see. And its funny because even if I provide the timeframe you will still say “but but… it doesn’t prove anything because reasons!!!”.

Just to further prove that you are full of it the time frame is 1:44. Right there at the beginning. Again the facts are against you and you have no ground to stand on.

The time frame was provided, and the truth is right there to prove you wrong, yet again.

Nothing i’ve said is made up, it all is literal facts unlike everything you say which are all lies.

It has been proven already that the SR system had nothing to do with it.

Classic, proven wrong then taking things back.

The SR system had nothing to do with this as there is no evidence of that whatsoever. Again with the lies.

We do know you just cannot handle the truth, you prefer to live in denial.

Facts are facts.

The truth hurts huh, you can’t reply because you got nothing on it.

No denial, just facts and truth.

I’m the only one in this discussion providing actual factual evidence and facts. While you are just trying to avoid it and denying everything without any grounds for it other than avoiding reality.

Again calling the opinions of professional players subjective but the opinion of one person objective, all because it doesn’t suit your view, proving again that you have no objectivity whatsoever and will only react emotionally and without any valid logic or reason.

Again the truth hurts, and you got nothing on it, the truth always wins.

Your SR system argument is a blatant lie made up in an attempt at finding something out of nothing to justify your view. There is no evidence of what you say whatsoever and it doesn’t make sense as I have already explained how the system works and it goes completely against what you say. And again trying to redirect the point, first you say it wasn’t a design problem, and now you admit that it is, you change your position so fast that your arguments lose any validity.

It wasn’t and again you throw that lie around without any evidence to back it up.

You have posted it already, and it doesn’t work, you only consider one side of the situation and don’t consider the whole of the context. Your suggestion would not work and it’s easy to see why, it’s no surprise that Blizzard doesn’t even acknowledge it, as it is not a good suggestion.

The ability has already been reworked in the single target rez, that IS the rework, if you don’t like it, that is your problem, not theirs.

Emotional response, yet here you are posting again, which shows you care.

The skill is what gives way to the strategy, again showing that you don’t even understand basics.

No ofc i don’t, they not paying any attention to bad suggestions speaks for itself.

Of course it’s sarcasm, when you get caught making a mistake.

You are distorting the message, classic. The point still stands, they stated the reason and the reasons are perfectly valid as to why it had to go and will never come back.

And yours isn’t of course, because what you say is always the objective truth, as long as it gets you what you want, classic.

Nothing is being made up, just facts and common sense. The game is much better without it.

Right now she is very much balanced. And it’s funny that you mention that because one of the reasons she was a must pick is because of rez, which is now single target, and you want to argue that mass rez would be better? that is just unbelievable.

I’m not the one who keeps asking for something to come back that was removed and resolved ages ago, who is in denial here?

Thas is perfectly fine, I think it’s even better for you as everytime you post you prove more and more that there is no grounds for your argument, you are just hurting your cause. Mass rez is never coming back.


#364

The difference is that they SAID they’d put mass res to rest.

No, because its boring.

Nah, being boring isnt a victory :slight_smile:

Yeah, because it wasnt worth comment. Mass res was overpowered.

Explain to me why the opinions of the players of a game dont matter.

I wasnt denying anything. Having your kill undone is annoying for some people, regardless of CD.

Nah, it means you’re boring.

No, really, your way of fixing mass res was to make it more powerful and make the problem worse. I guess you cant figure out a proper way to fix it.

I read it, its the same.

Constructive feedback: The playerbase is annoyed with so much CC being in the game. I constructively suggest not adding more.

Nah, it was a valid tactic that worked, regardless of SR.

Then how come it worked? Which it did. It was a thing that people did that worked. Um, are you trying to convince me that big res never happened? Or that it was never a good idea? I’m seriously confused here, because it was a thing that actually worked.

You didn’t provide any evidence :slight_smile: