The forced 50% w/r does exist on paper in solo comp

[taleswapper-11189]

But people are not able to do that. That’s the major complaint that people keep making when they say the system is rigged- I should be at a higher rank, but the system is hindering my progress.

I have yet to see one of the “rigged matchmaker” people suggest that the system is rigged while saying they hit their target rank each season. What people suggest is that the system is rigged precisely in such a way that it will prevent people from hitting their correct rank, thereby forcing them to grind.

But that’s not the way human psychology works. And it’s not the way systems designed to maximize engagement work. Those systems that are purposely designed to produce an addiction response in the players (thereby maximizing revenue) are designed such that they give frequent (nigh constant) success feedback- the numbers just keep going up. In fact, you can do this by purely designing a system that increases a counter every time someone clicks a button.

It’s exactly the opposite of what people suggest is happening in OW. What people suggest is happening in OW would cause players to disengage (as has happened) with the system. What people are trying to explain with OW ranked, is what you would expect to see in any ranked system- numbers stagnate. Players settle into their level and then, don’t meaningfully improve, so they do not rank up.

It would, in fact, be impossible for a competitive ranking ladder to provide the specific feedback that people want (the majority of the players ranking up) if it had competitive integrity.

So the actual explanation for what people are experiencing is, first and foremost, that the ranked mode works the way it should.

What legitimate complaints could be made are mostly around player issues and are mostly exacerbated when people foster ideas that provide false explanations that decrease actual understanding of the systems being used- those false explanations increase things like the number of players tilting and decrease things like the number players actually trying to understand the game and improve their play.

[HULK-23345]

@taleswapper-11189

decrease things like the number players actually trying to understand the game and improve their play.

I think many of us who complain about the rigging do so because we have improved our gameplay already and there are no tangible results despite doing so as far as rank, even though our in game performance is increased.

@taleswapper-11189

I have yet to see one of the “rigged matchmaker” people suggest that the system is rigged while saying they hit their target rank each season.

That happens though on other accounts

[taleswapper-11189]

If I make moderate improvements, I should expect to maintain my rank. Only when I make significant improvements will I rank up. This is the expected behavior for a ranked ladder over time. (Just to note here- I think KarQ has done the best job of specifically demonstrating this in OW. He’s got several videos in which he breaks down current top 500 play and compares it to top 500 play from 2017 or so. His assessment is that early top 500 play is comparable to current Masters play. So any Masters player that improved enough to get to what was top 500 level play from a few years back would maintain their rank in Masters. Ranking up would require more improvement than that.)

The other thing that I’ve been somewhat hesitant to bring up is the interplay between the actor-observer bias and the fundamental attribution error. Essentially, when something bad happens to us (I cannot rank up on the competitive ladder) we attribute it to outside forces (my teammates suck and the system is rigged against me), but when something bad happens to others (my teammates play poorly) we attribute it to a failing of those people (they are bad at the game).

So it is very difficult for us to accurately assess our own performance. We tend to inflate our skill level and our performance (I popped off!). But it is much easier for us to negatively judge others’ performance. (My teammates are terrible! Why am I even in the same lobby?)

This is one of the reasons that vod reviews are so important to people who are actually interested in ranking up, and why such a large amount of time is devoted to vod reviews for pros- they cannot afford to fall into those common human fallacies. Their livelihood depends upon actually improving in the game. One of the most important skills for top players is the ability to find their own weaknesses. It’s why you don’t really hear pros saying things like, “I’ve already improved enough. I’m done improving. I should just be a higher rank.” Instead, they’ll constantly find room for improvement in their play. That’s what ranking up in a competitive environment requires.

[HULK-23345]

@taleswapper-11189

So it is very difficult for us to accurately assess our own performance. We tend to inflate our skill level

Not me. If anything I underestimate myself

@taleswapper-11189

vod reviews are so important to people who are actually interested in ranking up,

Already done

[taleswapper-11189]

That’s actually great. The workflow for improvement is always the same:

1. Analysis- vod reviews etc. This is when you discover your opportunities for improvment.
2. Planning- putting a specific plan in place to address the weaknesses you discovered in step 1. Things like, “I keep making mistake X, so here is how I will both recognize when I am making that mistake in game and do something procedurally to keep me from making that mistake.”
3. Practice- train to make the change in my process my new habit that replaces my prior bad habit.
4. Repeat- on my next analysis phase I’m checking to ensure that I did make the change I wanted to address before and looking for new opportunities to improve.

It’s the only sustainable way to rank up without continually boosting/cheating/etc. But it is laborious. Most people just don’t want to do it. But the people at the top are doing it. And they are putting in way more time and effort than you or I are, because it is their job. Anything that detracts from me employing this process (worrying about the matchmaker or what my teammates are doing or whatever) will hinder my ability to rank up.

[HULK-23345]

@taleswapper-11189

• Analysis- vod reviews etc. This is when you discover your opportunities for improvment.
• Planning- putting a specific plan in place to address the weaknesses you discovered in step 1. Things like, “I keep making mistake X, so here is how I will both recognize when I am making that mistake in game and do something procedurally to keep me from making that mistake.”
• Practice- train to make the change in my process my new habit that replaces my prior bad habit.
• Repeat- on my next analysis phase I’m checking to ensure that I did make the change I wanted to address before and looking for new opportunities to improve.

Bruh I’ve already done all that stuff

[SgtSlaughter-1710]

@taleswapper-11189

But people are not able to do that. That’s the major complaint that people keep making when they say the system is rigged- I should be at a higher rank, but the system is hindering my progress.

I say the system is rigged and the matches are poor. I just want to have fun. If I want to move up I’ll aim train more and get more vods, join a TEAM. but for solo q I just don’t want roflstomps or get roflstomps.(but in analysis the stomps you find someone who hasn’t played before or something).

This happened since role queue which makes me think it wasn’t designed for it.

[taleswapper-11189]

I agree with you- I want balanced (rather than one-sided) matches. But two points- the first is that our recollections and impressions are faulty. Stomps will stand out more than other matches and will be both exaggerated in our memory and we will overestimate how many of them there are. The second is that there are so very many things that can hinder finding a balanced match (which is actually a difficult task to accomplish in a complex team game):

1. People on either team not taking the mode seriously. This is what I was mentioning earlier most worries me about people spreading “rigged” matchmaker, or “forced 50% win rate” theories- they actually cause much of the problem they are seeking to address if they influence the conversation surrounding the game. Why should anyone take a rigged matchmaker seriously? Why should people try in comp rather than throwing or memeing? Why shouldn’t people give up at the first hint of adversity if the system will force them to a 50% win rate anyway?
2. One team using a strategy that the other team (for whatever reason) simply does not know how to counter.
3. People of different ability levels queuing in groups.
4. Toxicity.
5. One or more players in the lobby tilting. (This is also exacerbated by thinking the system is rigged.)

Each of these has far more impact on whether or not you end up in a one-sided match than things like hidden MMRs and performance based SR acceleration. Blaming the matchmaker just ensures that people are worried about the wrong thing and that neither they nor the community will improve.

If people are actually worried about legitimate difficulties with the matchmaker they should request longer queue times. Trying to fill matches too quickly can decrease the quality of the match found. But I think I’m the only person who wants the option to request longer queue times.

[SgtSlaughter-1710]

@taleswapper-11189

Stomps will stand out more than other matches and will be both exaggerated in our memory and we will overestimate how many of them there are.

Again the designer trying to convince others. You didnt see the screen shot of me going 10-0, and 7 of those are stomps.

[taleswapper-11189]

I’m not a designer. I just happen to be paid to have these same conversations in a different context (working with folks trying to apply to top tier grad schools who need to improve their admissions scores), so I’m used to the common responses people have when they stagnate on a competitive ladder.

[rhainsict-1418]

@SgtSlaughter-1710

I just don’t want roflstomps or get roflstomps

Your team runs Hog and DVa against a Rien/Zarya and a Mei + Ana.

Either you cowboy up, or watch your tanks get walked on.

That’s not a “rigged match maker” issue. That’s a “I wanna play the game how I wanna play and nobody is gonna tell me different because I’m me,” issue.

Your team runs Rien/Zar with Mercy/Lucio and the enemy team runs Rien/Zar with Lucio/Ana and your team gets dumpstered because of the long term sustain and offensive ult difference.

That’s not a “rigged match maker” issue. That’s a “I wanna play the game how I wanna play and nobody is gonna tell me different because I’m me,” issue.

@SgtSlaughter-1710

in analysis the stomps you find someone who hasn’t played before

Untrue 90% of the times that I’ve reviewed your gameplay, Bob.

@SgtSlaughter-1710

This happened since role queue which makes me think it wasn’t designed for it.

It happened all the time in Open Queue as well. You just don’t remember it because you’ve been playing since beta.

[SgtSlaughter-1710]

@rhainsict-1418

That’s not a “rigged match maker” issue. That’s a “I wanna play the game how I wanna play and nobody is gonna tell me different because I’m me,” issue.

So at what point do we stop blaming the people and blame the game for lack of info?

Do people not see a good comp? Did it work before to give them a false sense of something that will work? Are you wrong in your analysis?

I was yelled at today to switch off Ashe to case for the stun against reaper… we had a hog, brig, Ana. Of course reaper gets a big blossom and everyone grumbles at me. I check the replay, seconds before the blossom ana waste the sleep to a shield for the “random front line sleep”, hog does hook him out of the blossom but doesn’t kill him… (he later tells me hog hook kill combo is very hard against reaper….).

The point is, there’s some missing knowledge to all these comps and what’s not working. I swear even as healer I see tanks at critical still walk into battle as if they’re invisible thinking a healer can insta heal them.

Now factor in the Al-mighty 50/50 system and to make the game “harder” it varies how many “selfish” or “lack of knowing” people to “make it harder”. What your all doing is confirming elo hell or at least the “tale of two games”. Because those selfish people who are on their 40% win rate will start getting carried to sr rank maybe they don’t deserve.

Current streak is still 12-0 so not even the almighty matchmaker knows what rank I’m supposed to be in.

[SgtSlaughter-1710]

@SgtSlaughter-1710

12 person lobby, based on random people clicking to queue up and SR within 1000?

Some permutations will be thrown out due to MMR predictions while others would consider to be 50/50.

I bring this up again to emphasize and realization that SR is in different dimensions. It’s multi-dimensional and the dimensions are weather your teammates matche your mmr or are you below the average or above the average. You give another dimension based on your opponents mmr average.

Think about it, between one game or another we placed with people with some variable, but the same 12 people can be rearranged (and still be deemed 50/50), but if you lose that match but you’d win the first configuration. In a way your SR is in super position each configuration (2^4 x 2^4 x 2^4) - (matches deemed unbalanced). The issue is the next match is now a different spectrum, and no longer apples to apples game of the first.

Now I’m not suggesting different SRs but just a realization that the SR we’re seeing is like 5 dimensions projected to 1. Which makes it even that more inaccurate.

[DernBiscuit-1825]

honestly, the forums are covered with people bringing up the issue.
And the forum is covered with dipsticks defending a computer program.
We say the games aren’t fun the way they are matched.
They say the algorithm is perfect in achieving 50/50 w/r.
And some of us notice that we aren’t talking about the same thing.

Does anyone think that a Sr or MMr even game, where 1 side has bronze tanks and GM supports and the other side has bronze supports and GM tanks is fun?

Duh, no. because the GM tanks are going to win every fight before the GM supports can swing the fight.

But SR and MMR call it even.
Same reason 1 tricking works. You stabilize on 1 hero, sure you guarantee some losses based on comp and map, but also some wins based on match up. That stops working eventually as people get better at using other heroes.

But the reality is that SR and MMR can’t capture any significant data about your skill on any hero unless you exclusively play one hero. Or at least 1 hero type. Even then it’s not a good estimation.

And that’s leaving aside people leaving matches.
Seriously, if people are voluntarily quitting your matches, your matches suck.
Could we imagine this happening in any other sport? no. Imagine watching people on one side of the soccer pitch just walk off. That’s how boring the match is. It’s literally a waste of their life.

A game developer shouldn’t try to scoot out of the way of that rebuke.
Someone who paid cash for your product just walked out. That’s how bad your matchup was. They thought a Ban against playing future games was LESS punishing, than finishing the match you created.

And that doesn’t even start on the clusterF that the game design itself is…but i digress.

[rhainsict-1418]

@SgtSlaughter-1710

Do people not see a good comp?

Honestly… No.

@SgtSlaughter-1710

Did it work before to give them a false sense of something that will work?

Most likely yes. It worked once. It’ll work again.

Except the conditions have changed entirely (Same map same pick for example):

• Different Main/off tank
• Different DPS player/s
• Different Support player/s

Most low elo players just don’t understand map specific situations. Which can be overcome by team synergy to an extent.

@SgtSlaughter-1710

Are you wrong in your analysis?

Everyone is wrong at some point

@SgtSlaughter-1710

So at what point do we stop blaming the people and blame the game for lack of info?

Whatever point you want. But everything in your post here is not a match maker issue (in a thread about match making ).

But again… The game has evolved and grown to be much different than how the devs originally designed the game and the game more or less evolves based on the players (not the devs). Though they “can” steer it in a certain direction to some degree.

@SgtSlaughter-1710

I was yelled at today to switch off Ashe to case for the stun against reaper… we had a hog, brig, Ana.

So ignore/mute them and focus on your gameplay?

If I was on Ana, that reaper wouldn’t get the blossom. But if I’m on Ana at that rank I’m smurfing…

@SgtSlaughter-1710

I check the replay, seconds before the blossom ana waste the sleep to a shield for the “random front line sleep”

So mute Ana. People who play Ana like a heal bot will never climb in SR. And you’ll just laugh at them from the higher ranks knowing they don’t really know what they’re talking about.

#LastLaugh

@SgtSlaughter-1710

hog does hook him out of the blossom but doesn’t kill him

Bad Hog player

@SgtSlaughter-1710

(he later tells me hog hook kill combo is very hard against reaper….)

Hog Hook combo is 275-300 Damage. It IS possible to not get the kill if reaper receives any kind of healing during this event but a good hog almost always secures the kill.

@SgtSlaughter-1710

The point is, there’s some missing knowledge to all these comps and what’s not working.

YouTube is a free and massive resource to learn LITERALLY ANYTHING.

As some people around here like to point out, Overwatch is made by Blizz who is a money hungry company. With that in mind, the returns of the devs investing time/resources to generate a “how to play Overwatch in”

• 2016
• 2017
• 2018
• 2019
• 2020
• 2021
• 2021

Is just not realistic or cost effective. That’s LITERALLY what content creators are for. To create content!! Otherwise they wouldn’t be making money hand over fist right now.

@SgtSlaughter-1710

I swear even as healer I see tanks at critical still walk into battle as if they’re invisible thinking a healer can insta heal them.

Low elo players have TERRIBLE awareness.

• Visual Queues
• Audio Queues
• Timing Queues
• Game Sense

All of these skills can be improved upon if you put in the effort. If you (community you) don’t have a desire to work on improving as a player, you probably shouldn’t be queuing for competitive gameplay. Because I can assure you there are a lot of people who do work on these skills. They have seen the rewards (myself included).

@SgtSlaughter-1710

Now factor in the Al-mighty 50/50 system and to make the game “harder” it varies how many “selfish” or “lack of knowing” people to “make it harder”.

@taleswapper-11189

In terms of the 50% win rate thing. Any time someone says “forced 50% win rate” they are operating under a severe misapprehension of how competitive ranking algorithms work. The reason that a well-designed competitive ranking algorithm tries to make matches with a predicted 50/50 win rate is that those matches best allow for accurate ladder rankings. They give the most information about the relative skill levels of the players involved.

That’s not how the match maker works though Bob… Read Taleswappers posts. He tells good tales. And they’ll be much more insightful than you and I arguing speculative information.

@SgtSlaughter-1710

What your all doing is confirming elo hell or at least the “tale of two games”.

Elo Hell is whatever rank you cannot adapt your skill and knowledge base to in order to climb the next mountain.
Elo Hell is Silver
Elo Hell is Gold
Elo Hell is Platinum
Elo Hell is Diamond
Elo Hell is Masters
Elo Hell is Grand Master

Its all the same based on your ability to adapt and learn the nuances of each rank.

@SgtSlaughter-1710

Because those selfish people who are on their 40% win rate will start getting carried to sr rank maybe they don’t deserve.

Well… In that case you tell them

• Thanks for the carry
• You’re welcome for the carry

And go about your business.

GG Go Next.

[rhainsict-1418]

@DernBiscuit-1825

1 side has bronze tanks and GM supports

Excluding smurfs who are intentionally deceiving the system, this doesn’t happen ever.

@DernBiscuit-1825

it’s not a good estimation.

Ehhhh… Its pretty good. Have you ever reviewed your own stats page in Overwatch and tried to decide what it’s actually telling you?

@DernBiscuit-1825

And that’s leaving aside people leaving matches.

Community issue, not a MM issue.

@DernBiscuit-1825

They say the algorithm is perfect in achieving 50/50 w/r.

Nobody has ever claimed that the match maker is perfect.

[DernBiscuit-1825]

Excluding smurfs who are intentionally deceiving the system, this doesn’t happen ever.

Not the point.

Ehhhh… Its pretty good. Have you ever reviewed your own stats page in Overwatch and tried to decide what it’s actually telling you?

Not addressing my point.

Community issue, not a MM issue.

ignoring the issue

Nobody has ever claimed that the match maker is perfect .

then why are you bringing it up?

[Izzy-1702]

How is it that 6 years later people still conflate the idea of a matchmaking system with being forced to lose? How does this thread keep getting made week after week?

[Megadodo-11847]

@Izzy-1702

How is it that 6 years later people still conflate the idea of a matchmaking system with being forced to lose? How does this thread keep getting made week after week?

I dont think the age of a topic is a factor

after all, Mass Rez still gets talked about quite a bit as well

[Izzy-1702]

Mass rez is even more silly as it isn’t even slightly confusing of a topic. It’s been beaten to death and it is never happening. So I think age is relevant as the discussion has been settled for a very long time. People like yelling into the wind I suppose.