The flawed opinion on handicapping

[Vurg-1970]

@McCringe-1673

Handicapping and rigging is when the matchmaker uses hidden MMR in order to balance a match. If it used average SR instead, then SR would be a more accurate measurement of skill than it is current

So your only complaint is that it’s Hidden?

I mean, the SR of all 11 other people in the game is allowed to be hidden from you based on their own settings. The only thing you are likely to see is SR Tier (Gold, Plat, etc).

@McCringe-1673

Both of these are incorrect.

My statements are based upon the statement of developers for WHY they hide MMR. Please read the guide for all the provided evidence of those statements. Summarized here:

@Kaawumba-1133

The real purpose of MMR is to provide Blizzard’s absolute best estimate of each player’s ability, while SR is to give a friendly indication of rank to players, as well as penalizing for DCs (without affecting matchmaking), and to prevent high ranked players from getting rewards while only playing five games a season.

@McCringe-1673

On a new account you can either gain or lose 100 SR on your first game after placements.

I’ve seen Samito on game 6 go from 3140 to 3249, so this is true. His average SR gained in 5 placements was 158. This is information I have reviewed since my previous post.

Unranked to GM DPS FLANKER ONLY IN ONE SITTING PLACEMENTS PART 1

This does suggest that my argument about brand new accounts is incorrect, as there are already mechanisms that allow SR to move rapidly.

This means that we’re just left with Leaver Penalties, SR Decay, and concern about performance based adjustments being abused for reasons that MMR is separate and hidden from SR.

@Vurg-1970

It would take much much longer for people to get into the games where they belong when they are on a new account.

@Kaawumba-1133

Currently, streak bonuses exist, but in a more limited form, and are quite difficult to trigger. The current design is much less likely to throw people out of their rank incorrectly, while still allowing accelerated motion for people that really don’t belong there.

@McCringe-1673

It is fairly accurate, but the system could still be improved greatly.

A system being able to be improved does not mean that replacing MMR with SR would be one of those improvements. If there was exactly the same Matchmaker, but that Matchmaker used SR instead of MMR, only in the edge cases would match quality be impacted at all.

@McCringe-1673

It is that it causes insane win/loss streaks and therefore expands your possible range of SR. I would assume this is deliberate to make players feel as if they are not stuck in a rank but it is artificial manipulation.

The matchmaker can do exactly what the developers say it does and there can still be streaks. Random chance is a sufficient explanation of that oscillation, and changing from MMR to SR would not impact that.

You genuinely feel that random chance is an insufficient explanation for fluctuations in SR?

@Kaawumba-1133

The game uses MMR to determine whether a match is fair, and attempts to match teams such that the game is fair (each team has a 50% chance of winning).

@Kaawumba-1133

Win probability changes slowly with rank because there are so many random factors in each individual match. Unfortunately, it follows from this that frequent and long streaks will occur, and a player’s rank will oscillate widely. Essentially, a player will tend to bounce between the range of where he is nearly guaranteed to win and where he is nearly guaranteed to lose. This problem can be analyzed in depth, mathematically17,36.

@McCringe-1673

Most games are already stomps anyway. At least my solution will create less stomps over time due to SR becoming more accurate than it is currently.

Do you have a spreadsheet to share where you’ve recorded information showing that most of your games are stomps? If you don’t even have that, then why would we argue about it?

What exactly is your solution? You seem to be banking quite a bit on the problem that MMR is hidden.

@McCringe-1673

Your skill should only be tested more as your SR goes up.

Basically, the “hardness” of the match is mostly determined by the randomness of the fact that 6 people are on a team that may or may not actually synergize with each other. It will also fluctuate an increasing amount based on how inaccurate your SR / MMR compared to your real skill. SR and MMR are just estimates of your skill, and when expressed accurately they would be expressed as a range to demonstrate a margin of error. If your SR / MMR is lower than your real skill, then matches should be on average a little easier. If your SR / MMR is higher than your real skill, then on average the matches will be harder.

It’s important to realize that the Matchmaker doesn’t need to succeed in every single match to be statistically accurate. Statistical accuracy comes from hundreds, even thousands of games of data averaged out over time.

You can’t look at individual games and complain about the matchmaker, you have to take a step back and evaluate the matchmaker across all your games over the course of a season. You also have to evaluate your own progress over a longer period of time as well.

@McCringe-1673

I think removal of MMR would make SR less volatile and that is the point. Instead of having a SR range of 1000 it should be 250 or 500. You wouldn’t get as many win/loss streaks and your SR wouldn’t move as much. You wouldn’t be able to peak as high as you do with MMR but you also wouldn’t be able to drop as low.

But why do you think that? I’m genuinely trying to understand. Why would the outcome be different if we used the other number in a pair of numbers that are intended to reflect the same knowledge except for the situations of Leaver Penalty and Decay?

I do not have an SR range of 1000. I do have an SR range of around 250. A range of 250 is basically a net difference of 10 games or so from high to low in the season. Are you trying to say you go for a streak of net 40 more losses than wins from your peak down to your season low, and then another streak where you have 40 more wins than losses to get back to that peak? (40 * 25 = 1000 SR where 25 is the average gain or loss per game rounded up from 24)

@McCringe-1673

Assuming of course that by the use of the word “fixing” you mean rigging. And by the word maximize you mean minimize.

Argument

Please try to help us understand what needs fixing, the method you suggest using to fix it, and why that would help.

[Rezeak-2251]

I mean from this it seems you feel MMR is rigging games. Which is not its intent or purpose and there really is no solid evidence to counter that. Yes you have presented your experience as evidence and all I can say is my experience doesn’t back that up and that’s as far as your evidence can take you. I get the benefit of the doubt since MMR has been a part of the game since release and changing that because you feel something isn’t really an argument it’s entitlement.

The rest of the stuff you write, I can put down to you having a closed mind. If MMR doesn’t rig. Removal of MMR would increase SR variance and make games more about luck than skill and therefore less competitive from a basic logic perspective. The fact you think MMR doesn’t help when people rig SR, because it would be wrong for 2-3 matches before it started to corrected over in a pure SR system that wouldn’t react for 100s of matches, shows how one-sided and therefore flawed your opinion is. You are saying because someone ruins only 50 matches with MMR on because it’s wrong for 3 matches, we should turn it off and let them ruin 100 matches. It really shows you don’t consider the positives and take the negatives out of context. One more example of that is how you think MMR can correct 500 SR it’s only been shown to do that via decay or start of season GMs.

[CALCULUS-11403]

Bump

[HeyZeus-11563]

Bump bump bump bump bmp bump bump this is how we bump

[rhainsict-1418]

@Rezeak-2251

Which is not its intent or purpose and there really is no solid evidence to counter that.

Have you stopped by Chloes thread?

They’re a support player who start (bronze I think) and they’re still climbing.

Some interesting discussions to be had.

[PR1SS-1830]

I think it doesnt matter if you think 50/50 Matching is handicapping/rigging or not. I still think its a trash system and should be removed. Its absolutely crippling for mobility and match quality. At this point in the games life im less worried about moving up and more about fun comp games. Since skill levels at ranks cannot stabilize with this system, match quality is miserable.

As a side note, Other thank COD no other games use a matching system like this and for good reason. 50% chance for both teams winning is only fair from the outside looking in. If MMR dials you in, any increased skill level you have gets washed out in the matching when they throw someone on the other team to balance you out, same goes for that other person. Unless your skill level far exceeds what mmr can calculate for you ±1000sr.

[rhainsict-1418]

@PR1SS-1830

If MMR dials you in, any increased skill level you have gets washed out in the matching when they throw someone on the other team to balance you out, same goes for that other person.

Wrong…. If you genuinely out perform your peers, teammates or enemies, the performance based system moves you higher.

How much higher is determined by how much more you outperform your peers AND how consistently.

Yeah cool, you had one game where you top fragged and two games after that where you did “okay.” To achieve high ladder mobility, even on aged accounts, you really need to be exceptional.

@PR1SS-1830

As a side note, Other thank COD no other games use a matching system like this and for good reason

Valorant uses an SR and MMR based system. League of legends…. There’s a few others.

@PR1SS-1830

Since skill levels at ranks cannot stabilize with this system, match quality is miserable.

Is it possible that skill variance among the average ranks is inconsistent enough that it’s overly complex to determine one gold player to another?

[Franchise107-1243]

Blump this up right to the top.

Truer words have never been said

[ŘïĝĜèĐ-1974]

@Rezeak-2251

Cuthbert says it’s wrong and should be in no competitive online games yet it’s in most of them.

@Rezeak-2251

This concludes he doesn’t understand the term and honestly at this point you could say his entire discussion is flawed.

That is the most toxic disgraceful use of fallacious reasoning I’ve seen in a while. It’s…just not worth breaking down how wrong your logic is.

[ŘïĝĜèĐ-1974]

@rhainsict-1418

Wrong…. If you genuinely out perform your peers, teammates or enemies, the performance based system moves you higher.

Stop spreading misinformation. It’s inappropriate and offensive.

You are not outperforming your peers, you are outperforming a cherry-picked lobby, where the odds/outcomes are tampered with independently of the rank. They are rigged to be 50-50 in expectation.

It’s literally the opposite of outperforming your peers or your rank.
The only thing genuine is outperforming the rigging. Over and over without proper payout. It’s boring, rigged, and makes the entire experience a fake sham.

[rhainsict-1418]

You necro’d an ancient post for this?

Actually trolling…

@ŘïĝĜèĐ-1974

Stop spreading information

Information > Fake News.

@ŘïĝĜèĐ-1974

cherry-picked lobby

Of players based on your MMR. Therefore, your rivals.

@ŘïĝĜèĐ-1974

It’s literally the opposite of outperforming your peers or your rank.

Looks like we need to pick up a dictionary.

• Move along

[Rezeak-2251]

@ŘïĝĜèĐ-1974

That is the most toxic disgraceful use of fallacious reasoning I’ve seen in a while. It’s…just not worth breaking down how wrong your logic is.

Thank you giving an example how misuse of the term algorithm handicapping does manipulate people to the point of name calling.

An algorithm is a set of rules that is followed.
Handicapping is anything that makes a game harder than usual.
Any system that makes a game harder or easier is algorithmic handicapping.
Which means even a chess tournament in real life uses algorithmic handicapping.

Simply not his problem. It’s how it’s done and if it’s anything it’s mmr.

Thanks for the reply receipts.

@rhainsict-1418

You necro’d an ancient post

Funny I rewrote the post like a week go because it was full of unnecessary stuff but didn’t wanna repost or bump it cause not really a fan of spam.

[rhainsict-1418]

@Rezeak-2251

Funny I rewrote the post like a week go because it was full of unnecessary stuff but didn’t wanna repost or bump it cause not really a fan of spam.

Well, once the cow’s been milked there’s no squirting it back up her udders.

• Lady Olenna

In reality its the most grounded post shy of the one Kawaamba used to post. So by all means, I support its continued discussion.

[Nocturne-2913]

@McCringe-1673

Most games are already stomps anyway. At least my solution will create less stomps over time due to SR becoming more accurate than it is currently.

It all boils down to the hope that you are “secretly” better than your SR suggests. Chances are good that you are not.

And that weak players, in your model, are suddenly much more consistently bad than they have been.

But it’s that inconsistency that makes them worse players. sometimes they play like someone two ranks above them and sometimes two ranks below them. This means that the external circumstances play too big a role for them.

[rhainsict-1418]

@Rezeak-2251

Simply not his problem. It’s how it’s done and if it’s anything it’s mmr.

Pretty sure that Skill Based Match Making is an industry standard at this point.

[minionbanana-21976]

Stop feeding the delusional noobs

[Ƕcasual-2599]

@McCringe-1673

Probably not but they shouldn’t be different at all if SR literally stands for skill rating and is the only representation of skill that the player can see.

It should be different. After placing a 4.2 account it becomes 3.9. If there was no mmr at all I would have to win over 15 games in a row to get back where i belong. Mmr makes this easier for me so I don’t have to ruin a lot of matches before I get back to 4.2 after my placements. I get like 30+ sr per win and I only lose like 18 sr untill im back at 4.2. This is why mmr is so usefull.

[Cuthbert-11649]

McCringe is making a lot of sense in this thread! Sorry I missed these posts

[HOLYKNIGHT-1769]

i agree 100 percent, its because its not real competition. Because competition is not based on fairness its based on skill only. Why don’t they make all the over watch teams in over-watch league fair and make it so players are spread to make it a 50 percent win chance for each match. No game would ever do such a thing for their tournaments as folks would see its not real competition and leave.

The match making system is put in place to make sure everyone in the ladder has a 50 percent win rate , and don’t get upset and quit or play less. In a fair match making you would have a solo que and a team que, where all it does is take people of similar rank and put them in matches.

[HOLYKNIGHT-1769]

i agree 100 percent, the reason for toxicity is because your matched with people in the same rank and clearly their is a massive skill difference, and when you search the history of said players, their on a massive losing streak where their the worst or second worst player in the lobby. This is one major reason gaming companies starting allowing players to hide their match history on their profiles and stats.

PLayers started to search for these feeders/trolls history, then use the infomation to curse or yell at players on their team, or flat out use it as excuse to afk in the game. You check the profile and see the guy is using hanzo with a 37 percent win rate on hanzo after 320 games.

PLayers get upset because they have to play out of their mind to carry lesser skilled players, the lesser skilled players get upset because people are yelling and screaming at them, and in some cases they go afk or throw the game. Sadly not all lesser skilled players are made the same, some KNOW their bad for their rank, and try to support others in game or not put themselves in situations to cause their team to have to carry them as much.

Lesser skilled players could win more in their rank, if they played as if they know their not as good vs certain enemy players on the team. For instance i play a moba game like league of legends, if i see a enemy team player is to good for me which is rarely the case as iam in the top 2-3 percent every season as a solo player, i wait for a team- fight or wait behind a defensive position and ping for help. I don’t go fight the guy 8 times in a row and go 1kill 8 deaths, then complain no one wants to help me.

Match making by gaming companies is basically a babysit service where they try to put 1-2 bad players for their rank on each team, and have the other 3-4 players carry them, or babysit them, so they don’t get upset and quit.