The Common Thread

I think I finally figured out a common thread among all the heroes that get the most hate. The heroes that seem to ruin every game you’re in and make everyone rage when playing against.

Often they’re described as “unfun” to play against, and that very subjective claim is hard to back up as many people tend to point out. The other thing that gets pointed out a lot (not always) is that many of the characters people hate seeing on the other team are considered to not be very good, usually based off comp stats.

So why is it that heroes can be statistically weak and also feel like “OP garbage”?

All the heroes have one thing in common

They punish bad enemies rather than rewarding good players

Think about, what is to me, the biggest offender in this category, Mei. She has a very low pick rate on Overbuff meaning she isn’t valued, she doesn’t bring much to comp play, that is she’s seen as “weaker” than other higher picked heroes. So why does she feel so oppressive and “unfun” to play against for many of us in QP?

Because if she catches you where you shouldn’t be, you die. If you’re alone and Mei sees you before you see her she will almost always kill you, and there’s not much you can do to stop it. In a more functional team her range and kit don’t help that much. She has some niche uses but she doesn’t offer the same value as other heroes. Her best use isn’t in helping you’re team it’s in hurting the enemy team.

Look at the next two biggest offenders, Sym and Tjorb

They currently hold the 2nd and 3rd worst pick rates respectively on Overbuff. They clearly don’t bring much value to a team, that’s why they are used almost never. Yet when you play in an unstructured casual environment they can feel like the absolute worst and massively OP.

If the team is uncoordinated, new, or just faffing about and not focusing their turrets then they go unchecked and just rake in kills. We’ve all seen the PotG in QP that is Tjorb just picking his nose while a clueless enemy team just walks into the turret and dies one by one.

In this situation Tjorb the player did nothing, the enemies did all the work for him. He was rewarded not for his skill but for their incompetence. Sym can function in much the same way. A cluster of her turrets going unchecked spell disaster for the enemy team. In both cases the turrets are easily managed with even the smallest amount of coordination, but without that they’ll absolutely run the battlefield.

Now lets look at the king of the bottom, Bastion. Bastion has the lowest pick rate on Overbuff. Bastion has gone mostly unchanged since the game’s start (much to the dismay of many players) He feels either absolutely useless or just devastating, and the thing that dictates which of those two he is, is almost always the other teams ability to handle the Bastion.

An unchecked Bastion with just a little support will shred the enemy team if gone unchecked. His massive DPS output will mulch almost anything if you’re team doesn’t stop it. I remember when the game launched and almost every PotG was just bastion sitting in one spot as the enemy team walked into a hailstorm of bullets. Once again Bastion in these situations does very little, he can’t do much by design as he’s stationary, but an uninformed enemy team makes it very easy for him.

For comparison lets look at the DPS that has the highest pick rate on Overbuff (over the past 6 months) McCree. I rarely see McCree hate threads. He isn’t really viewed as oppressive and unfun to play against. I can’t really recall a situation where I felt getting killed by a McCree was “BS”.

This is because McCree must go and get his kills. If he’s at range he needs decent enough aim and relies heavily on headshots (even better aim). He has his stun and FtH that can be used to quickly end enemies, but it isn’t guaranteed. His stun/FtH combo plays very similarly to Mei’s freeze/spike combo the main differnece is there is much more counter play with McCree.

Mei has a 1.5 sec to kill you once stunned, McCree only has .07 He isn’t designed to be able to just punish you if he gets you alone the way Mei is. He can if he’s good and is able to maximize FtH but often he wont and his window of opportunity is very small.

Finally I’d like to talk about Widowmaker, a hero who recently has been the topic of a lot of rage and discontent. Widowmaker can feel so over the top because she actually benefits from both being damning to unskilled enemies as well as damaging in the hands of a skilled player, she ostensibly is the bets of both worlds.

If you’re stationary, out of cover, moving in a straight and predictable manner or any of the three Widow is very good at punishing you. Her high damage and one hit capability with headshots means she will end you for your ignorance. However, she can also be used with great skill to kill you even if you are playing well. This means she can be absolutely devastation in both unstructured casual play as well as coordinated comp play.

She gets the benefit of capitalizing on both sides of the coin, which is why she can feel so absolutely oppressive. A decent Widow in QP is both punishing you for your ignorance as well as outplaying you with their skill.

What does all this mean? I dont really know, but I Think it draws a line and to me connects some dots that highlight bad design choices as a whole for certain heroes. In a perfect world this would be recognized by the devs and they could start testing ideas against whether or not abilities or heroes are actually strong when used right or strong when countered wrong. Ideally it should be a bit of both

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I’m sorry for skipping pretty much your whole post, but killing opponents is kiiiiinda what drives the game.

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The point I made was that there’s basically a difference between heroes who are designed to kill enemies and heroes that are designed to have enemies kill themselves.

Kill the enemy is the point, but its a matter of how you get there

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:thinking:
I think the only character that can suicide is Pharah. Everyone else can be killed through their own recklessness if the enemy player is actually working their recklessness against them.

I guess I just don’t understand what you’re trying to say. :neutral_face:

Anybody can jump off a cliff, Ashe can dynamite herself, Soldier can helix rocket himself, Junkrat can riptire himself, although not on live yet, Sigma can hit himself with the his accretion AoE.

I feel like I’m missing some. In general, explosions hurt the hero using them. Exceptions are Junkrat’s primary fire and his mines, Sigma’s primary fire (although I dunno that the AoE on it is an ‘explosion’ as such, but w/e). I’m probably missing some exceptions too. Oh well. You get the idea.

Pretty actually interesting thread OP, gj!

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Zarya’s projectiles do self-harm. Junkrat’s immune to his own explosions.

You’re not wrong about the others, but nobody is going to willingly jump off a cliff unless they’re smart enough to know they’re screwed and don’t want to feed. :thinking:

In any case, maybe you can help me understand what OP was trying to say. :slightly_smiling_face:

Heroes like Mei dont get kills because the person behind the keyboard is good, they get kills because the person on the other end was bad, and that’s bad. (to put it in a nutshell)

Zarya’s do hurt her? Hmm. I mean, generally I don’t play Zarya and when I do I don’t hit myself so I guess I just wasn’t paying close enough attention and either was bubbled or my shield regenerated.

Junkrat’s riptire still kills him AFAIK, although he’s been patched immune to the others a long time ago. (I think he was always immune to mines actually, I don’t remember him damaging himself to jump. Not sure though.)

Zarya’s projectiles do hurt her, and Riptire does not kill Junkrat.

Wtf. When did they change that?

Oh, I get it now. Same time, though, Mei is extremely avoidable if you don’t waltz right into her range.

If you’re looking for a game where every character has the exact same mechanics, you’re probably gonna want to look someplace else. I don’t like the devs or staff for many reasons, but at the very least, they did have a clear idea of what kind of game overwatch was gonna be when they originally made it.

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His self damage was patched iirc. I might be wrong but I’m almost positive riptire doesn’t selfdamage Junk.

That’s exactly the issue, the enemy has to be bad for Mei to have real value, which is not very good character design. Mei’s general concept is fine, but the way its implemented is not. I want her to be her own unique character but she needs changed so she can be her own character and good.

2017? Well, that shows how much I play junkrat…

Tested just to be sure and in fact it doesn’t. I mean, I’ve avoided setting off point-blank tires in Mystery Heroes forever and otherwise just don’t play him, so, y’know.

Still seems weird to me.

um
Nobody punishes the enemy player for being close to the payload recklessly the same way she does. Reaper, Roadhog, Reinhardt, Zarya… They punish you for being close, but none of them freeze you.

Again, if you want a game where everyone is the same character, you’re looking in the wrong place.

You make an interesting point. I’d like to add, though, that heroes like Torb and Sym don’t just punish bad players throughout the ranks. Sure, at lower ranks people might just walk into their traps. At higher ranks, though, people don’t pick those heroes expecting to mow people down with turrets; They’re picked for area denial. Turrets can be extremely effective even without killing anybody if they’re disallowing the enemy from being where they want to be. That’s a big deal at higher ranks. There often isn’t time to focus down turrets so you can move where you want.

I mean I would be lying if I said I didn’t do the same thing.

I think there’s some truth to that, but them being to two of the lowest picked characters says a lot to how practical that actually is. Turrets being stationary mean they’re inherently easy targets, and at higher play where everyone has better aim, picking them off quickly is much easier