The +20~40% Didn't Factor in Context

General Discussion
1

So everyone’s quoting

to justify sym individual kit nerfs, yet there’s nearly everyone’s overlooking the context of that number, i.e.
How much of that was actually caused by the beam fix vs how much of that was actually because of double shield meta letting sym actually have 195dps every fight?

Contextual facts

  • sym prior to this patch wasn’t getting lvl 3 often because of how inherently niche her weapon is (low range, low mobility for it, low sustain ti charge up and having high delays) i.e. not often having access to 195dps
    • it wasn’t uncommon for a sym to carry her own fair share of the weight without using lvl3 much in a match prior to this live patch
  • sym in double shield meta is literally getting lvl 3 beam every fight because of how much double shield enables her i.e. often having access to 195dps
  • sym’s bug fix didn’t alter her theoretical prescribed dps values
  • sym’s bug fix didn’t alter hitbox registry of beam at all
  • sym’s bug fix only effects damage of the 1st tick after missing

Claim: the +20~40% was mostly or purely from the bug fix.

Disprove by contradiction:

There can only be 2 cases that’d explain a +20~40% increase in “average damage output” if the bug fix was the main or only factor, either:

  1. syms were and are missing a lot for the bug fix to get a high count of “1st ticks from missing” to get high contribution from the bug fix, or
  2. syms were hitting a lot to get such an increase in damage

Case 2:

Let’s start with the easy one. If syms were hitting a lot i.e. missing minimally, the count of “1st ticks after missing” also are minimal, therefore the bug fix would have effected sym minimally, i.e. a contradiction to the claim that the bug fix was the main or only factor causing the +20~40%.

Case 1:

In noting that the bug fix didn’t change prescribed dps values nor beam hitbox registry, to achieve a +20~40% average increase in damage output with the premise that syms were and are missing a lot, the number of misses to get such a high amount of “1st ticks after missing” will need to be really huge. i.e. their accuracy and consequently damage prior to the fix must have been really low in the first place.

But if it originally was really low average damage output, then got a +20~40% increase in average damage output, how could it have gone to so high dps levels to consider a nerf? y = 1.4x is still a straight line where the output is directly proportional to the input.

Again, prescribed dps didn’t change nor did hitbox registry. How could sym be “OP” and “melting” through everyone and have a 20~40% increase in damage output from mainly or purely the bug fix? i.e. contradiction with the claim.

Since both cases lead to a contradiction, therefore the claim that the bug fix is the main factor or the pure factor that lead to a 20~40% average damage output increase to justify a nerf is FALSE via proof by contradiction.

If not the bug fix what was the main factor?

Double shield meta.
As hinted before, before double shield sym would get maybe like lvl 3 once every 2~4 team fights whether that may be near the end of the fight or somewhere near the start of it.

Now in double shield meta, sym has it at the start of every fight. i.e. the meta change caused sym to go from: maybe occasionally having 195dps but mainly relying on orbs, which are charge up burst shots, to always having 195dps for every fight.

Like of course there would be a spike in average damage output. If bastion got a meta comp that lets him stay in sentry forever without needing to self heal, he’d also have a spike in average damage output too since he can always reach his theoretical maximum dps in that comp which is also being played everywhere.

7 Likes
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or you know all three stages of charged are doing 20-40% more damage after the bugfix?

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Except the bug fix did change the prescribed dps value nor the hitbox registry i.e. if it hitting now it would’ve hit before, and the only thing that the bug fix changed was your “1st tick after missing” doing the supposed damage on the label.

either you were missing a lot for that bug to actually have a high effect such as a 20-40% increase irrespective of beam level i.e. your damage before and how much it increased by would not be high anyways to warrant a nerf, or you aren’t missing much to achieve that increase in which the bug fix literally wouldn’t be the main factor.

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no, something clearly went very, very wrong with the beam changes. I don’t even need to see any data to know something broke, real bad.

One might be playing a QP game a few weeks before the beam change and it’s a less then great team comp, big mix of SR. Some random gold level SYM, so a person with less than great aim or understanding of the game, is doing their normal whatever SYM stuff.
Maybe kills this person, that person here or there.
The normal meh QP stuff.

beam patch changes? Same random 2.2k or maybe even 2k level SYM, so again as I said NOT a person with killer aim etc is all of a sudden just snap fingers like burning down 3+ people on a CP? Just vaporized some random 3k+ player on Orisa.
“b…but double shield and…” no, it’s QP we don’t have double shields, we have the same trash comp as before but now all so sudden SYM is a monster, even when being played by low SR players.

something clearly broke.
Unlike say the current Doomfist issue that is more about counters not being played and patch changes long term. You get a meh SR Doom in a game, they have meh sort of impact still. It’s not all of sudden they are roaring over anyone/everyone like we see in SYM.

2 Likes
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The fact that it wasnt just symm who was at 20-40% increase on average but every beam user even winston and Moira went through a considerable damage increase after the bug fix and you can confirm this by comparing the stats of last 3 months to this week and see a large increase in the damage done per game

3 Likes
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Winston and Moira deal more damage? Also Winston’s weapon is a beam?
I played Moira so I haven’t noticed any damage difference.

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Zaryas damage was also nerfed and she has nothing to do with double shield meta … stop being biased. Everyone who played zarya or symmetra before noticed the difference of aiming and tracking.

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  1. this thread is about sym

Also irony of this thread being about people not taking into context, here’s the context of what I quoted:

Aside from meta considerations, it’s important to prioritize individual hero balance which is why we’re tuning Zarya and Symmetra damage output. The recent beam bug fix was much more potent than expected, with those heroes on average seeing a 20-40% increase in damage.

i.e. those refering to zarya and sym

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Dont worry… i have not missed your cherrypicking. Anyway you are wrong and the devs know better what to do. You can try to make a Reddit post about it as always and see the downvotes.

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Yes there is a clear increase in the damage Moira and Winston dealt per game compared to before the bug fix both lining up in the 20-40% range indicating that yes that stat applied to not just to Zarya and Symmetra but Moira and Winston as well, also yes Winston is a beam weapon

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is it bias when literally all was stated in the OP were literal facts, and then subsequently logic to join the points of those facts?

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Well you don’t really need to aim anymore so…

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you think they didnt take that in consideration?

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Please do provide a video of you randomly placing the cursor around and still somehow managing consistent kills via your primary to prove your claim :slight_smile:

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Yes but when you’re trying to say the increase only occured in sym because its a double barrier meta even though it showed up in every beam character shows that a majority of it occured from the beam bug fix

Yes, however if you look at the stats it shows this also applies to Moira and Winston even if it was in reference to Zarya and Sym and why they got nerfed Winston and Moira also saw these significant increases in damage per game even though their weapons are significantly easier to hit than symmetras they were still able to receive the bare minimum in the average

2 Likes
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Sure it’s not sym 2.0 but with this beam buff you can just randomly shake your mouse around on a target and still melt a 200hp hero

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Dev’s? probably. But if they were actually considering sym’s “individual balance” they would’ve redone the tp cd mechanics to make it not so much a blatant nerf to sym’s independence and flexibility.

Everyone quoting this to say the bug fix is what put sym into meta or saying it made her OP? Defs not taking meta into consideration.

1 Like
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haha ye this is actually legit

and i agree

they said they often look to the next meta, so expect next meta to make her viable? (we both kno it aint gonna happen)

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Im certain they did think about that.

And you immediately forgot Zayar also got the huge damage increase as well. Which doesn’t ramp up by sheilds.

Also while Sym does increase damage by doing damage to sheilds. You don’t exactly just stand in front of the other teams Orisa and Sig with only 200hp. I think we are over exaggerating how much damage sheilds give her during an actual fight.

Also with such an increase from the bug fix. Even with the nerf shes doing more damage than before.

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I see where you’re coming from but I’d like to bring up some counterpoints.

  1. People keep mentioning the double shield meta. The thing is Sym doesn’t need 2 shields to shoot at to reach max charge. She could already do so with a single Rein or Orisa barrier. In fact, I would argue that she would be even stronger in a single barrier meta (unless it’s dive), because the single barrier would die faster and she would be able to start killing stuff more quickly. Goats had plenty of barriers and she was still bad against it. Even if Blizzard made it impossible to run 2 main tanks she would still be just as good against comps with Sigma, Rein and Orisa (unless it’s Orisa + Hog) as main tanks.

  2. This isn’t just based on stats, but if you’ve played the game long enough as or against Sym before and after the beam change you can tell there is a very obvious decrease in time to kill. Raw damage stats is a fallacious argument indeed, but TTK doesn’t lie.

That being said I don’t necessarily think Sym needs a nerf. At least not a harsh one. I think she is still weak to Pharah, Doom, and Dive. I think they should keep the hitbox size nerf and revert the DPS nerf.

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