THANK YOU for Talking About Matchmaker's MMR and Forced 50%

I think most of us who complain about the matchmaker are on a similar wavelength and want some sort of variant of “no 50/50.”

I personally think the issue lies in how it attempts to compensate if it sees you winning. If all it did was say “50/50, have at it,” I’d have less of an issue with it. But as we know with what the devs have told us, that’s not what’s happening. It takes in performance, win streaks, loss streaks, group vs solo, etc. Oh you lost 5 games? Well you deserve a win so lets make this next one 70/30 in your favor. Congrats you win!

This muddies up the matchmaker which is why games rarely if ever feel balanced. If the matchmaker was truly balanced at the very least 75% of matches would feel close but you would still be winning if you deserve to. It rarely feels that way, even in the beginning.

Again my personal preference, take 12 players with similar ranks in each role, adjust for stacks/groups vs solos, shuffle them, that’s it.

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we want some variant of “no data collected”

why would they EVER need to see my data, or anyone’s data…to ship a match? Defend the SR as a metric of skill and stop the invasive analytics.

Play to win,
convert,
or don’t.

We need promises they don’t use data. It’s never used in sports why use it to rig matches tamper lobbies in esports progression systems?

Data collect + analyze + rig makes the customer the product and throws integrity under the bus for the sake of profit.

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I really think they were trying to do something good with it. They just didn’t expect (or didn’t want to admit) that players would quickly see through the system and use it to their advantage.

Blizzard also knows that competitive doesn’t mean that only hardcore players compete here. Even normal players may want to play for an hour, which is about 2-4 matches.

And for these players it would be better (in theory) if they are not completely run into the ground the first 100 matches and have a completely demotivating gaming experience every evening. Overwatch is not Quake, where you can hop in and out quickly and the rounds last 10 minutes at most. An Overwatch match can last 30 minutes and leaving early punishes you.

So the idea is to give every game a 50% chance of winning, so that even regular players can win and not feel like their time was completely wasted. We already know this principle from elementary school, where the teachers often divided the teams into halfway fair teams.

The problem is that this is okay for one or two games, but if you really want to progress intensively, you notice how much you are dragged down by unmotivated or simply untalented players. How can you tell? Stupid one tricking, feeding, staggering, not grouping up, not countering etc. These are principles that - as a team - become extremely important from gold onwards. If you don’t value them as an individual, you lose the victory for the whole team.

And if the matchmaking data is diluted by trolls, throwers and smurfs, the matchmaker simply cannot put together fair matches. Even IF the matchmaker can recognize two Smurfs, it does not mean that they come from the same SR / MMR area. One could be Diamond, the other Masters, just because both have very young accounts, the level of uncertainty here is very high.

The difficulty, thanks to MMR, is only roughly based on your SR range, because if you’re just really good, you usually get a really good opponent (or worse team mates). At least as a solo player, that’s very hard to counter.

Therefore, the difficulty is absolutely relative and refers to your basic performance (MMR), not to your SR range. If you play like a Plat in Gold, you will also get opponents who play like Plat in Gold. Due to SR range restrictions, you will rarely encounter “natural” players from the appropriate rank.

The match then feels more like a match in the Plat range. Which is not a BAD THING. The challenge here is not the actual point. The problem is that you don’t really get rewarded or compensated for it. You don’t get an award or extra SR points just because your match is much harder than it technically should be (gold easier than plat). And PBSR only kicks in when you manage an outstanding performance and don’t get countered.

MMR matchmaking creates an uncanny dissonance, as a match in a given SR range can be at very different difficulty levels. We would expect a particular rank to have a stable difficulty level that makes it clearly distinguishable from other ranks. This may be the case on a large scale, but it is not noticeable to the individual within a range of 500 SR. We also expect to be labeled correctly, if we manage to beat players from a certain MMR range. If I can stand my ground against diamond smurfs in gold, why am I still gold for dozens of matches, and still have to work through the whole plat range?

That doesn’t mean that you can’t climb. It just gives you progressively harder matches in low ranks that are only slightly related and mirrored by your SR rating. And it prolongs the climb exponentially. Your SR chases your MMR … very slowly, with a lot of back and forth. So Blizzard’s own statement is correct here.

Summary: SR mainly represents your EFFORT, less your actual skill level.

One big question remains: Does MMR matchmaking work, or not? On the one hand yes, it tries to even out the matches, or the players and you can already say that individual players are identified and faced with similarly good opponents.

Can it fulfill its intended task satisfactorily? No, it’s easy to undermine, because the identified players are often only statistically close to each other. Young smurf accounts and throwers introduce so many inconsistencies that matches become steamrolls despite MMR matchmaking.

MMR can therefore never work for fundamental reasons, because in a game like Overwatch there is no ultimate score to statistically match skill against skill every time. Skill is a meta term here that can completely flip from one situation to another.

So if MMR matchmaking doesn’t work because players (smurfs) can easily leverage and exploit it, why would you want to continue to use it frantically? Let MMR go.

This leads to the fact that the “good intentions” with the manufactured 50% winchance simply do not work in practice. Let it sort out naturally. Therefore, ironically, it still feels like most of the time in competitive is somehow wasted.

I still think that the “addictive” side effect is also highly interesting for Blizzard. Because of the arbitrariness and randomness in the OUTCOME of matchmaking (not the composition), we get a similar effect as with a slot machine. When we win, we are flooded with dopamine, but often we also lose and try to pick up where we left off. Or we try to gamble lost SR back in, like a gambling addict who gambles away his last cents.

From the description it becomes clear that the same system can have two opposite sides. On the one hand, the “well-intentioned”, in favor of casual players, and on the other hand, the “harmful”, that binds especially intensive long-term players.

To what extent the whole thing was 100% intentionally constructed, we can only speculate. In today’s business world, however, we should assume that a lot of psychologists are involved in such systems.

The other approach would be a completely naive and highly negligent understanding on Blizzard’s part of how games are played today. Or complete arrogance in presuming to know how games should be played.

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“The amount of MMR (and SR) you go up or down isn’t simply a matter of whether you won or lost, and what was your predicted chance of winning.”

Pretty much dead-to-right proof you take things out of context and don’t understand the definitions of words.

“is not” != “isn’t simply”

FYI changing someone’s quote is not only lying it’s manipulation.

Great job, proving to me you don’t understanding the words you use.

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Thank you, this makes sense. Good bye competitive till changes made or forced to be made.

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That’s right! When I realized how I was being manipulated/exploited by the Matchmaker, I quit. Everyone should. However I did play a bit of Overwatch in the summer to produce my video. Didn’t see that in your crystal ball?

Great reply, I would say much the same. However this may not be true:

I have heard that MMR only applies to the ranks of Bronze to Platinum, although Activision/Blizzard has scrubbed developer statements about MMR from the Internet. I can’t confirm without a primary source that I can find (today). At any rate, this is a threshold that Activision/Blizzard may change without notice to users.

Fair! But I maintain the logic that in a ranking system with millions of players, only rank-based competition could select for the best. The artificial selection of Performance-Based Skill Rating adjustment can’t do it. Because the only true defining quality of a good Overwatch player is their ability to play objectives and achieve victory. The stats that we generate from match to match are completely relative to our competition and as such they are incidental. So match result is the only truly meaningful and reliable indicator of skill. But how can the test of skill be valid when it is handicapped in favor of some competitors and the disfavor of others at every instance?

Competition has to be fair and transparent from top to bottom, or the entire ladder is corrupted. At every level of the ladder, it matters who is there. It is ultimately the players who decide each others’ fate, or at least that is what it should be. And let’s remember that below plat is the vast majority of players. Very few of us ever manage to escape the churn of algorithmically handicapped matches and experience true competition in Overwatch. There are worthy players in the middling and even the lowest ranks. I count myself among them.

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8-2 on my last 10 games. this rigged mm is brutal! why isnt my winrate 100%???

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Why is this always the landing? I won’t presume to speak for Cuthbert… but you know… some of us just want actual fair games. MMR is great for QP, there is no SR limits, and it puts players of similar styles together… so everybody can have a fun game overall (that’s why many people think QP is more fun) The restrictions being in place for SR, mixed with MMR is what makes this not fun, when the playerbase was fuller… it was less noticable, but as you can see as the dwindle continues… especially in the high ranks, that you’ll get hard weighted down a lot more, now if you’re better than your rank… sure, you’ll get promoted. But if you’re weighted down by players two levels below you, while the other team is your rank… you’re going to feel this way.

Not everybody wants to be a Master, GM, or top 500. We want actual rank based games. If MMR is the metric… leave it. But make the rank MMR. When I’m a silver (now) why do I get 3 bronze on my team… and 1 gold on the enemy team with all silvers? Well, if it isn’t me with the Gold MMR… then it’s one of the other players. And why is it balancing like we should all be facing higher than our ‘weight’? I did an anecdotal study 2 or 3 weekends ago. 30 games or so over the weekend… 7 out of 10 my team was underweight against the enemy in terms of ranking only.

This account spent a majority on Lucio… by alot …compared to other heroes… am I punished for doing well on him for a long time? Am I punished for being terrible for the first 2 years of playing (being in gold) and not understanding grouping well enough, not focus firing? Other accounts are higher and played regularly this is the longest and most difficult to pull out of the basement. Even if I fall on other accounts… they rise back up easily.

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Bro I’m 12-2 on bap this season why is it so rigged man. If I don’t hit rank 1 this season imma join the rig club

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This is exactly how it should be.

Apologies, my account was on hold and stuff, which I’m sure you’ve experienced lol felt like I was legit being censored. Also, I’m not a vegan (can’t find that reply), I prefer my steaks medium rare ;). My sense of justice comes from my love of Truth.

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That’s okay, brother! I still eat meat sometimes. But we can all strive for veganism (i.e. truth and justice), both in diet and in gaming :wink:

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Exactly. I want real competitive rank games that will be a reflection of my own skills and rank. If I happen to hit Masters or GM, someone give me a beer and congratulate me for being awesome. If not, then I just have to ‘git gud’. Simple.

^^ This right here. MMR does exactly this. It is so unethical and completely inappropriate. There’s a reason why there’s an increasing Player drop in this game. WAKE UP BLIZZARD!

The irony is becoming comical to me (it used to annoy me). The irony is that those who keep ‘landing’ to that side of the argument about ‘git gud’ are actually high ranking players LOL ridiculous.

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now i can officially disregard anything you say.

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You can ignore what you want.

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So ball park the following for me: at what SR skill equivalent do you think the matchmaker stops players from climbing? We know no one in OWL league is going to be stopped from reaching the top of the latter. The same is true for the top 500. Are you arguing that there are some GM-level players who can’t reach GM despite their best efforts?

You can make the argument that the ladder is maliciously inefficient, exploitative, and manipulative, but I don’t think you can make the argument that it nullifies skill. It may seriously increase the skill floor needed to get out of a rank such that you have to play at a diamond level to get out of gold/or you must grind and grind and grind (way more than is reasonable) if you’re a 90th percentile gold player, but at some skill delta relative to your peers you will climb. My take is that that skill delta is ridiculously out of touch with where it should be, but it’s not logical that it could suppress the best players (unless a large majority of current GMs, Masters and Diamonds couldn’t get back to their ranks, which I don’t think is the case).

What I think is happening in Overwatch is akin to a lot of middling level college athletes being sent down to high school varsity, and now both sets of players are competing for the same spots; and you’ve got players at a higher level of skill than either group saying “the system is fine because I could compete with all of you guys and win.” It’s a flawed solipsistic view.

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Way off topic of course, but why? We should be striving for veganism. Eating meat is not only unethical, but it’s dangerous, and stupid. If anything, you should be listening more closely. :slight_smile:

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have a good night crazies. you bring me lolz

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So you crafted a huge conspiracy theory to cope with your hurt ego but did not know the primary goal of MMR was to create fair matches with heavily decayed players? ie; if a 4500 player took a 2 month break they would decay all the way down to 3k. For the majority of players in Bronze-Plat their MMR and SR are pretty much identical. There’s no way you’ve gone 4 years spouting this BS while being unaware of how it actually works.
This would be funny if it wasn’t so sad.

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Just pretend it’s practice for being married and come play some Overwatch?

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As I alread wrote in another thread: It’s all well and good thinking about it theoretically, but HOW would it play out in reality?

Can anyone exactly outline how the difference should play out?

And do you really think the difference would be noticeable at all if you kept all the other rules (new players start in gold, multiple alt accounts per player etc.)?

A lot of the problems come from inconsistencies by the players themselves. Better players tend to be more consistent. Thus, even matchmaking without MMR cannot alleviate the noise created by inconsistent play.

At worst, this would even be amplified and feel EVEN WORSE.

If we talk about a “more natural skill-funnel” that “smoothes out” towards the top, nothing changes at all for the lower ranks, while maybe from Plat and Diamond the matches become more balanced (because the inconsistent players don’t get any further).

But actually that’s already the case, isn’t it?

And since issues like smurfing, boosting and trolling can’t be handled correctly by the matchmaker anyway, they can’t be blamed on the matchmaker either. and most importantly, they also can’t be prevented by pure SR matchmaking.

So what exactly would be different with non-MMR-matchmaking?

Edit for typos

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