It’s ironic that by calling the nonexistent strawman, he’s doing just that which he accuses you of.
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Yeah, it’s the internet. Everybody’s looking to shout past each other to score points.
That’s because you haven’t been following the context and just rushed in to defend a bad argument. See my above example for what a straw man is.
Flankers complaining about supports doesn’t mean they want supports to be free kills. That’s the straw man he made, and also seems to be the one you insinuated. He basically tried to shut down the discussion by claiming it stems from “the ridiculous idea that supports should be free kills.”
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I know what a strawman is; I don’t need to see your attempt to explain it in order to understand. And I also see the beauty in this:
When people have explicitly said this in game, on reddit and on these forums literally millions of times over the years, that this is exactly what they wanted, you know full well that not only is this false, but your claim that they’re paranoid is entirely false.
The person you’re attacking for this, made this claim in direct response to the OP, which is about a specific argument that amounts to ‘supports shouldn’t be able to put up a fight or run away.’
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Soldier has AoE heal, Doomfist has shield and invincibility frames on ult, Sombra has health-pack to heal herself AND teammates, Mei has self-heal, Reaper has lifesteal, Symmetra’s shields self-heal, Tracer has Recall, Echo’s ult fully heals on use and restores her to 200HP on break, Torb has armor suit thing for sustain, Bastion has self-heal… Take it step further and apply the same logic for tanks, and Genji has deflect and Mei has Ice Wall and Block…
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It is called health packs?
Then don’t pretend it wasn’t a straw man.
Who said that, explicitly?
Who said that?
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Supports don’t need to go to specific spots on the map to be able to do damage.
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You’d be surprised at how many people don’t know where the health packs are.
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The point is, they don’t have to, and often the flankers very much don’t.
There is a class where you are not reliant on supports for sustain, and there should be a class of support where you are not reliant on the DPS to fight off flankers.
Health packs keep working, but the heroes are subject to buffs / nerfs, and that is a problem.
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Every character works like this. You have to position to actually hit people. Brigitte can’t fight a mile away. Most of her dmg comes from up close and Ana can’t hit through allies if not at 100%.
Most characters need to be in the right spot to do dmg.
Your name is DPS1Trick. Most dps need to be in the right spot to do damage.
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Moira and Brig were literally meant for exactly this, but whining DPS got them hell-blasted with nerfs.
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Why do you think flankers don’t? Genji and Echo? Even Sombra has to take herself out of a fight for “self-sustain” from healthpack, she just does it faster than Genji and Echo. Doom can’t get enough self-shield unless the enemy team is packed, which in turns mean he’s more likely to take focused damage.
Only Tracer can self-heal on a long CD, but that is far different from having consistent self-heal, as Tracer with recall and without need to play very differently.
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I don’t see you suffering because they nerfed the health pack.
I DO see the support anti-flankers have been nerfed.
I also see that McCree doesn’t counter Tracer in a way which the supports can rely on, so relying on him is a joke.
She is #2 pick, and they don’t have a working counter. McCree is OBVIOUSLY not a working counter. He is at his strongest ever. AND Tracer is #2 pick, WHEN you have a meta which shouldn’t favour her.
But that doesn’t matter because as always, it was only Brig which kept a lid on her.
You still have a health pack. You don’t have Blizzard nerfing them out from under you.
The Supports do not have a working counter to Tracer, and It is pretty obvious that no one else does either, which is cool for you, since you are not the target.
She EITHER has to be balanced so that regular gameplay effects her pick rate (because her being #2 pick in THIS meta is a total balance joke) , or the support counter needs to work.
Since the DPS don’t seem to be keen on either, people are calling them out.
They must have had the privilege of actually getting healed. Disgusting… They need to experience Overwatch like the rest of us do. Health pack, spawn, or cart. Your choice. The healers are busy with making sure Rein gets that 10 hp while his barrier is up.
I’m not sure what are you asking for?
If support vs. dps have similar ttk per aim% breakpoints - it will reduce everything to a raw fps reaction-time skillset.
OW would become this homogenous shooter, where aim/fps sense dominates - but you can bring a healing nade vs. damage nade for your loadout! That’s where aim-elitism - as the only form of “skill” takes us…and it seems boring to me.
The reality is it’s a we have this hero shooter with distinct roles that play off different skillsets. Supports are expected to out-cd for direct value, with some micro but mostly macro. DPS ofc expected to out-mechanical, scaling with micro and less macro carry.
So to me the interactions are mostly fine. I don’t look at the dps vs. support matchups as 1v1 aim skillchecks in isolation. I look at the resource budget required to force cds or elims, the amount of time this buys your team, value differentials this creates, and how that converts into winning chances.
Then we just avoid DPS at all costs, and it becomes 100/0. It’s how you win, if odds are stacked against you.
This is the most cancer post I’ve seen in a while.
Also, its already NOT a 50/50 unless you’re literally bad at this game.
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No, but it means that flankers are pretty much useless unless you are much better than everyone else in the lobby, if you make the job of the flanker - which is to get picks, usually on supports, be a 50/50 then why would you even use them? half of them are not even that good at the moment, what is the point of doing so, like how does this help the game other than making supports have a much easier time against their counters without having to switch or rely on peel?
It’s not even saying that supports are “free food” which is something a lot of people would blame for not being as good as they think, this is just saying “hey supports have a chance against dps but they should have a better chance so they would be able to stand alone against their counters” - it’s like saying that Pharah should be able to win a 50/50 against any hitscan, it’s just a dumb argument, with no reasoning at all, other than “I want to have an easier time”.
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It isnt though.
The difference is that DPS skills are more focused on mobility, survival or positioning AND killing. So yeah, many Supports have a very good kit that can compete with DPS but it will NEVER be 50/50.
And thats how it should be. Around 60/40 in favor of DPS.