There are so many threads in the forums that explain why Moira or Ana or Lucio need to be buffed so they can defend themselves against, or even kill characters like Tracer and McCree.
Why?
To me, a healer/support character is meant to lose those fights. All things being equal, why should a Moira ever win a fight against Genji?
I feel like this area of the game has gone completely off the rails in terms of the original design.
In my opinion a Lucio should never take a 1v1 against a Soldier 76. It should be labeled a mistake every time a Mercy pulls her gun out to try and kill a Tracer.
I understand there are times when the best option is for the Support to fight against the enemy rather than healing/assisting a teammate. However, things like Zenyatta launching a five-ball down a corridor and killing a Widowmaker donât make sense to me when considering the designation of those characters.
Am I the only one who thinks âBalancingâ should be limited to designations? If a Zenyatta and Mercy want to go at it, give them similar dps/healths pools. If a Reinhardt wants to trade punches with Zarya, have at it. But why does it make sense to level the playing field between Lucio and Soldier 76?
20 Likes
Zenyatta has a good excuse for it because his healing is fairly low, while also having no mobility and a round hitbox (easier to hit). Damage is like 70-80% of what he has.
For the others, itâs more about not being a free kill (enough bite to make attackers be cautious) rather than having an outright advantage in a direct fight.
However, I would accept supports as free kills on the one condition that Genji and Tracer need at least 2-3 hard counter heroes who make them free kills too. Gotta keep it consistent. Randomly making some heroes have super hard counters but others not having them is pretty unfair. Which would you prefer?
49 Likes
I know people will get mad at you and IMO it shouldnât be a onesided âGenji winsâ type of thing but the one thing I agree on is a lot of people seem to want them to be dps, able to win 1v1s with ease and I think it shouldnât be that way.
Moira, Zen, and Lucio are fine I think because thatâs basically all Zen has while Moira and Lucio are kind of meant for that. (sorta)
14 Likes
If a DPS isnât capable of beat any of the supports in a 1v1 situation, itâs going to be the fault of the skill of the DPS player most likely.
All the DPS in the game can easily pump out more significant and meaningful damage than any of the supports, maybe excluding Zenyatta. Moira does mere chip damage that can easily charge the enemy support ultimates, and Ana/Lucio/Mercy arenât designed to deal significant damage.
If the supports in this game werenât able to defend themselves with half-decent damage, especially when itâs so fast paced and extremely fast kills are common, supports wouldnât be able to do much. A Zenyatta who couldnât deal damage to defend himself and that would die really easily would be useless. Any support that couldnât scare off an unskilled flanker would be worthless because the flanker would eventually kill them no matter what, especially in a solo-Q environment where the team probably wouldnât be trying to defend the support. No one would be willing to heal.
The damage potential, of the supports is low, but itâs enough so they can scare off flankers and protect themselves if they get the advantage. Take away their survivability and theyâre useless.
55 Likes
The first thing you said is a credit to my point. Why is damage 70-80% of what Zenyatta (a support) has?
To you second point, Iâm not talking about âfree killsâ. The game is meant to be team-based. A tank should protect their healers.
Random hard counters? Heroes, in their roles, should be balanced, not be able to 1v1 every hero in the game.
1 Like
So basically what Iâm getting from this thread is that supports self defense abilities should be removed just because someone got outplayed by a Mercy, Zen, Ana, etc.
37 Likes
Because if Genji fks up, the support should be able to get away or out right win.
A Genji with all abilities on cooldown caught out at mid-range should not be able to kill any support. The issue is he still can kill Ana relatively easily because she cant get away.
The problem right now is obvious when you consider dive meta. The entire point of dive is to kill the enemy supports faster than the enemy can kill yours, because there is literally no point to protecting your own support as the defending side is at a disadvantage. Tanks shouldnt be protecting their support. Tanks should be diving trying to kill the enemy support because it is more effective and easier. Your entire team cannot peel a Winston, Dâva and Tracer off your support before they kill your support. It just aint gonna happen.
Supports are so easy to kill that it is interfering with their role entirely. As of now supports in dive are primarily bait/discord orb bots. When the main use of a character is bait, it should be pretty clear that they need help.
24 Likes
None of the supports have âself-defenseâ abilities except maybe Lucioâs boop. Anaâs sleep dart is a âshut you downâ ability that usually means death if landed. Moiraâs abilities apart from her healing orb are all damage.
If you read the entire thread you may have noticed I said all things being equal, a support should lose a fight to a dps. I have no qualms with a support outplaying anyone. I think I actually said something like that too.
discord > any amount of healing
3 Likes
So basically even when I pistol whipped a Tracer multiple times I should still lose the fight anyway because it makes the other player unhappy that Iâm willing to shoot 2 kill for the sake of myself and my teammates.
14 Likes
Supports already lose in a 1v1 to a DPS of the same skill level most of the time.
What you want is already true.
20 Likes
So if a DPS looks at me while Iâm playing Mercy I should just roll over and die?
Does it make you sad when you lose a 1v1 to a Support? Poor DPS player ;-;
DPS all have kits to easily 1v1 supports and win. If you lose to a Support, you got outplayed, simple as that ![:wink:](https://d74zh8edaijub.cloudfront.net/en/overwatch/images/emoji/twitter/wink.png?v=5" ":wink:")
22 Likes
so basically what youre saying is, tanks should absorb damage and nothing else, dps should do dps and nothing else, and supports should heal and nothing else. then based on your logic, soldiers heal station shouldnt heal his team mates, rein shouldnt be able to charge and get a kill, hog should be just a meat shield, etc etc. i think you have the wrong idea about balance. i dont know everything about the game but i believe the characters are balanced so that in theory the can win any 1v1. zen will have hard time against a tracer but its possible. soldier will have a hard time against a doomfist but its possible. even a torb could potentially kill a pharah. imo
9 Likes
Because the Genji made a mistake or even multiple mistakes during the fight and Moira capitalized on it. The only support whoâs ever going to consistently 1v1 a DPS when theyâre both being played with equal skill is Zenyatta. A support being able to defend themselves from bad a DPS is nowhere near as ridiculous as every single support being a free kill regardless of how the fight goes down.
8 Likes
With all things being equal, Dps should be able to kill Supports:
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Mercy has no combat ability with her best battle style is GA away
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Zen has large hitbox, no mobility and squishy.
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Lucio and Moira does not do alot of damage
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Ana has no mobility and her darts are very high precision
So, with all things being equal, dps should be able to kill these healers
12 Likes
Again, I said all things being equal. If you didnât know, that means both players on the same skill level with no outside factors weighing on the outcome. If you pistol-whipped a Tracer multiple times youâre obviously playing against an unskilled Tracer. A conversation is equal parts listening and responding.
I donât think Ana, Moira or Lucio need to be buffed so that they can fulfill a dps slot. I think Moira adds good value in that she is not a free lunch to flankers like the other supports.
My problem with support balance is that Moira far outclasses the other supports, she heals more than the main healers, can kill flankers and has an escape. I think Mercy and Ana primarily need buffs to their niche so that they can offer more than Moiraâs jack of all trades playstyle. Itâs like how soldier is a jack of all trades but heâs not objectively better than all the other offense characters.
I donât think nerfing Moira is the solution because Ana is really not in a great place and Mercy could also use some small tweaks. Iâd say to change up those two characters first and if Moira is still objectively better then she needs some part of her kit(most likely self healing) toned down slightly.
6 Likes
You arent listening to us.
At equal skill levels a DPS player will beat a support player 1v1 most of the time. What you are demanding is already reality.
14 Likes
âSo if a DPS looks at me while Iâm playing Mercy I should just roll over and die?â
He didnât say that at all.
Might as well be saying it with how vague his statements are.