I actually think that the train of thought is healthy for supports, although most of these changes are net nerfs, except for Mercy/Zen. Do you believe that supports overall are too strong?
The idea behind it, is this:
They want to bring other supports to Kirikos lvl, but i think Kiriko is overral too strong, its why i started the list by nerfing Suzu once again, while compesating her Kunai a bit, and that logic is what dictates where i buff characters, usually just net buffs with survivability in mind, unless its LĂșcio, where its a net nerf but thats because i think hes meta for one or two wrong reasons.
Ofc they are all mostly tuning and tuning is pretty much impossible to get right without playtesting so ofc alot of these numbers are up to change.
(Where also some reworking is needed, as i put there, Moira and Mercy need reworks but tuning is always possible)
Yes, the burst healing to too generous.
I think invulnerability is fine, what would make it better is if it didnât do it all, cleanse, burst heal, immunity, I think itâs too good, maybe something with the cool down.
Yes.
I think sleep is fine right now.
Still way too short.
Too short duration, even with this. Thereâs too much play with field.
I think it inspires way more selfishness and opens up too many opportunities to save teammates.
no too much vertical mobility as is.
shield bash does almost nothing but damage, you should just give two charges and the damage reduction but a further knockback and travel distance.
healing is bad as is.
no. It deteriorates too quickly, shorten decay time to compensate.
kinda the point of lucio on KOTH, he should enable either way, like saying sym doesnât get TP for first 10 seconds of the round.
way way too fast. Contesting would be impossible to deal with.
lmao.
increase the cd faster then, youâd spam GA for extra heal.
healing is fine. DMG boost i think was to deal with the soj issue but ruins other pocket combos.
rez is really bad as is, the health and damage donât mean much, instead increase CD or you canât rez tanks.
Yeah Iâll deal with that.
already been patched.
good.
huge huge nerf, I donât like moira but this is really detrimental.
same thing here.
faster means theyâll go past the target too fast.
so 225 hp?
not enough compesation.
Bashing around more frequently seems great on paper, until you realize that having two charges at half damage changes how Brig is played. What makes her threatening to any DPS is her combo. You mess with itâs damage or timing, and suddenly sheâs not a threat anymore and becomes a throw pick whose sole purpose is to stay in the backline and be a healbot.
Bash is not great as an escape tool. It leaves your flank exposed. As far as mobility goes, itâs best used for repositioning. Currently, her barrier movement penalty is -30%, the same as Reinhardt. Her barrier cooldown is 5 seconds, which is also the same as Reinhardt. Those numbers make sense for Rein, but not Brig. Changing those numbers allows Brig to use her shield without that constant fear that if it breaks, you are useless for 5 seconds.
This is a friendly reminder that this is a character whose lethal range is melee distance. To be able to get into melee distance with the current amount of damage, Brig needs the HP to be able to do so.
Brig doesnât need compensation nerfs, seeing as sheâs currently the weakest support. The packs are a Heal over Time. They do not provide burst healing. They also donât stack to provide more healing. The duration is, instead, extended.
It feels absolutely terrible to see teammates in need of healing only to be unable to heal them because it takes 6 seconds per charge of repair pack. Thatâs a total of 18 seconds for three charges.
6 Seconds per charge made sense for 6v6. It doesnât make a lot of sense for 5v5. Especially now with how much damage there is. Youâve got flankers running rampant thanks to stuns being moved to the Tank role. Sojourn with her overloaded kit. Tanks basically being tank-sized DPS at this point.
Brig, as is, provides no utility. Healing is inconsistent unless you can constantly proc Inspire, which is no easy task when you peek and suddenly have 5hp. Every support bar Zen outheals Brig. Brig has low damage, low healing outside of Inspire, and no utility. There is zero reason to pick her. Thatâs honestly terrible when the support roster only has 8 characters to choose from.
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ÄvÄ«ĂçĂȘrĂŠtĂ«d
That with everything.
You mean increase its cooldown?
I think cooldowns shouldnt ever go past 20s now on the new format, since its faster tempo doenst quite like it, so i always look for alternatives of keeping the cooldown as short as possible.
I think it still has too long a cooldown to fit the new tempo, bringing it down along with its duration, keeps it still a better ability.
This one is one of them iâm not too sure on the tuning, would need testing to allow a 15s cooldown but with decreased stats, maybe even less HP on the generator or even less aoe or maybe only give 1 HP total to people inside it.
This is just bringing him in line with Kirikoâs survivability, something they seem to want to do, also compesation for his lower healing/Immo Field net-nerf.
Sound Barrier has been one of the strongest ultimates in the game even on OW1, it got buffed on OW2 with how Overhealth only gives 50% ult charge as opposed to 100% it used to give, it really should be looking at a nerf.
And thats exactly why the change, LĂșcio has been too much a must pick on Koth and now Push, thats not a healthy thing to have in the game, at least in my opinion, where i want to have more viable support options at those game modes.
Thats just to compesate for his nerfs, specially his AOE on his Auras, its the most fun aspect of LĂșcio too.
Maybe the buff itself would need an internal cooldown, yes.
Thats there to incentivise active play out of the Mercy with Guardian Angel to boost her stats back.
Rez is an awfully weak ability imo, doesnt make any sense as an cooldown to be honest, in reality i would like for it to go back to her Ultimate slot and Valk to her E cooldown, with numerical changes to accomodate obviously.
Ya didnt get to the point she has two charges she can freely choose to use wich.
Untethered speed, meaning only when its not hitting its target.
Quick maths⊠yes.
What kind, i think having ~10% more HP and ~5% more damage kinda compesates the loss of 5% team damage.
(specially since with breakpoints heâd 2 shot 200 HP targets without discord)
Kaitsja
Her supposed âcomboâ doesnt really do all that much, its 50+35+70 (155) , changing it to 125 doesnt really break her, specially since youâd have a much easier way to get into range.
Also from my experience Bash is pretty useful as an escape tool, its basically a significantly better Tracer blink.
50 HP does much more than just allow close ranged prowess, it just makes her very difficult to kill nonetheless, what really allows her to get in more would be two bashesâŠ
You seem to forget or not know, that Brig was meta on OW2âs beta with Junker Queen, shes definetly not as bad as people make her out to be, she just cant compete with Kiriko, LĂșcio and Ana now, and on maps with really long sight lines, Bap/Zen.
Also shes supposedly getting a better ultimate with actual identity on it, so, she doesnt need an complete power-creep overrall buff.
I should love this because you heavily nerfed every support except for Zen; however, like, why???
Tell me one of them you think is a heavy nerf, please.
ok so basically nerf everyone is what ur saying
Perhaps that was not the correct way to offer blanket criticism. What I meant was that literally every support would be far less fun to play and have reduced impact to top it off. It is a double whammy.
However, you bludgeoned Moira to death quite frankly. And personally, despite her working in the 5v5 environment, I still firmly believe she is overrated as all she offers is healing and damage. Albeit, in your proposal, it is more like all she offers is healing others.
If you want to reduce the impact of dps Moira, you do not nerf literally every aspect of it. Sure, that works, I suppose. Nobody in their right mind would attempt it. But she still needs to be able to defend herself. This would hurt even heal bot Moira when going for recharge, which they will undoubtedly need to do more frequently.
In the contrary, i think having shorter but less impactful (obviously) cooldowns fit the new quicker tempo on the new format, leading to more fun, maybe iâm wrong here.
This is supposed to yes, be a little bit of a heavy handed approach to DPS Moira but i think, overral she has the potential to get alot better healing potential with alot more potential for recovering her resource, 20% less passive recovery is much less than 20% more active one, plus she gets 2 charges of her orbs, with the healing one being less nerfed overral.
In the end though, this is just fine tuning, to âfixâ the DPS Moira issue, shes not really overpowered, hence the sort of net-neutral way of nerfing her dmg but buffing her healing but really, what she really needs is a rework, and the devs are already wrestling with one so this is just an inbetween tune idea untill the rework hits.
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I feel like double shield charges would make her too easy to escape with how her shield currently is. Brigâs problem IMO is that she doesnât offer utility. A lot of people view her as an inspire bot or that she needs to have it up a lot but really itâs just her secondary source of healing. Primarily itâs the packs. I think they need to look at giving her some level of utility that isnât CC and then buff her survivability a bit.
I donât know/cannot really argue about him taxiing since thatâs never what Iâve really seen as main value for him. Like yeah being able to get your team back sooner if you lose a big team fight is strong. But I think whatâs more valued on him is just the mobility he gives in general. Also nah I didnât miss that buff I talked about it the few times Iâve mentioned him in support focused discussions. His ultimate is the second strongest in the support group next to Kirikoâs imo. Thatâs why I was okay with a slight nerf to itâs cost. But ultimately I feel like Lucio is in a pretty good spot and doesnât need any changes.
I specified lower MMR since everything Iâve heard about Mercy in high elo is that she is hard to hit with how strong her movement. I still stand by my statement though I really donât think we should buff her HPS outside her ultimate. Mercy would become a mandatory pick again and I donât want that.
Iâve actually been thinking on posting a Mercy rework thread just to see what people think of my ideas. But Iâve been hesitant to primarily because I donât have exact numbers to give. But also because I feel like sheâd be too different and it would be written off over that instead of my ideas being flawed.
In my mind theyâed let her âduel wieldâ by having staff be an ability in her ultimate. Think pressing your ability to heal or bump damage would see mercy poke forward with her staff like sheâs casting a projectile or something in her left hand. And in her right would be her pistol. She wouldnât technically have both out at the same time as it would look goofy.
I see, well I think if Zen is going to get any changes at this point I feel like they need to be sort of a soft rework rather than a numbers adjustment. But thanks for explaining.
kinda, I feel itâs far too little for such high value.
okay
probably one hp, but 99% of the time they get healed. I feel that a shorter field would make bap a must pick.
I feel even then field is more net value instead of ever 20 or so seconds, bap has higher mobility with boots than wall climb in general.
did not know it gave less ult charge, then itâs fine.
okay I can see how this works, but I think itâs just a vital part of the game.
but in metal ranks people would never be able to kill the lucio pole riding.
Iâd take this, donât think mercy player would appreciate it but then make ult charge less.
did see that, but it travels
A little faster sure, but the overall dmg and heals are less, and itâd fly by enimies and probably die off before it got itâs damage.
ah okay then.
the kick is all the survivability he needs.
Then it makes zen really selfish, and thatâs not what he wants, I think the health can do away, he was always a glass cannon.
Junker Queen was the driving force behind JOATS, not Brig. She is as bad as people make her out to be. Brig got nerfs that shouldâve been reverted going into 5v5.
An ultimate rework wonât skyrocket Brigâs current power, unless itâs able to outclass the best support ultimates.
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KnightRaime
I feel like inspire is also just as important as the packs when the team plays around it at least.
Though iâm not sure how exactly to give Brig utility while keeping with her identity, instead of just more mobility, without it being either more booping or giving armor wich is usually far too strong⊠she would need a rework too since her buttons are full.
The main reason they havent changed it i think is that yes ultimately its only a minor thing but still a unhealthy thing to have, even if minor.
LĂșcio is in a pretty decent spot, other than the minor taxiing issue, though i still think the one thing he needs is to have some of his Ult power be trasnferred to his more fun parts of his kit, kinda like how they did with Kiriko.
I mean i kinda agree that her HP/S shouldnt just be outright buffed but thats exactly why i think having it actually be diminished but then increased only when she utilizes an ability wouldnt be so brain-dead healbotty.
Mercy mains are a little defensive about Mercyâs playstyle, its really difficult i think for the devs to rework Mercy for that exact reason.
Problem here is that she has no extra buttons to use, all of her abilities are being used, it would be the first ever character to maybe have abilities bound to her weapon changing maybe?
But yeah, allân all i see no other better place for Mercy other than they re-introducing Ress to her ultimate and replacing her E with some decent cooldown, with some skill expression hopefully.
I dont think Zen needs reworking really, of any kind, i think he will find his spot in the game eventually, hes already useful on long range maps, all he needs is either a bit more survivability or for the meta supports to get some adjustments so that he can more easily fit on the meta.
ÄvÄ«ĂçĂȘrĂŠtĂ«d
I prefer decreasing its value, again for the same reason i want the other long cooldowns diminished.
I dont think its that vital, more of an unhealthy bit.
They already cant.
Oh theres alot of numbers that need changing if something of the sort happens.
The DPS/HPS is the same btw, it just does less maximum damage/healing, theres a cap of damage/healing her orbs can do, if you didnt know, even when its damage boosted, her orbs only do more DPS/HPS, not more overral damage/healing.
Not if they nerfed Discord i think.
Its not that selfish, but yes, thats usually what survivability means for Supports, to be more self-sustainable.
Kaitsja
Yes, but no character that people seem to think is worth less than a grain of sand can be meta, even with such a overpowered driving force that was beta 2 Queen.
With my experience, i would say Brig is only really overshadowed by the meta ones being better and her lack of really strong counters to the meta/lack of a good ultimate.
When they give her an good ultimate i think sheâll find her place in the meta quite decently.
Looking at their recent history with ultimates (Overclock, Rampage, Kitsune Rush and Anihilation) theres alot of reason to expect it to be quite meta defining and carry Brigâs kit.
Moira is not even top 4 support and u wanna hard nerf her like that lol
2 Likes
Whatâs the point of this though? Suzu is already fine, and been nerfed like twice already, leave it be. As for her kunais⊠Why? Sheâs a better sniper than most snipers already.
Please no, just give her stun back, itâs useless other wise.
???
This is just⊠Bad, taxiâing players back to the fight is something Lucio HAS to be able to do.
Stop. Trying. To. Gut. Heroes.
Sheâs already one of the worst supports, why TOUCH her dueling potential? Itâs literally her only utility.
Iâm done, I canât take you serious, this is just BAD.
You are insane.
Just NO
2 Likes
This is interesting, but the sound barrier nerf seems totally uncalled-for. Yes, Lucio is very meta, but I donât think the ult is the reason I would stick to the crossfade change. As for the wall ride thing, they have tried to keep him feeling the same by adjusting the wall ride boost in accordance with his speed boost, I am not sure that we want to ruin peopleâs muscle memory.
Actually rephrase that crossfade from âplayersâ, to âalliesâ. Unless you really want to mess with Lucio playerâs muscle memory
actually I think only doing the anti taxi change is probably the best idea.
This seems harsh, if you want to keep biotic grenade weak, she should have 2 charges of sleep and just halve its effects to
Minimum sleep/stun duration reduced from 1.5s to 0.75s
Maximum sleep duration reduced from 5 to 2.5s
I found I could often ignore anti at 3 seconds. As a tank unless I am already low, the window is too small to be relevant. as DPS and support unless I am playing a Reddit Lucio, or just Genji at all. I find anti really not being too scary. 1 second makes a huge difference here
One univeraal change for all supports is all that is required
Passive: Divine Intervention
If hero is brought to 0 hitpoints, replenish 50% of tbeir total hitpoints. Refresh time: 60 seconds.
Then nerf tank innate and call it a day.
Those Ana changes are not good. Sleep dart is probably these most skillful support shutdown ability, why mess with it? Thereâs plenty of ways to counter it
In what world do you think moira is crying out for significant nerfs to her already lowest of all characterâs potential sustained and burst damage. Jeesus. And sheâs already a bottom tier pick in the top end, youâve just thrown her down even further.
Moira never has been and never can be a healbot. There area already healbot characters with high sustained healing numbers. Moira needs to balance her damage and heals and any change needs to respect that damage/heals balance.
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