Support changes to the whole cast i'd like to see

General Discussion
21
Azymondia

Hmm, its only 10 dps she loses, and self healing, but gets better team healing, she would still be able to DPS, just not as effectively as she does rn.

Plus with 2 orbs, but losing 100 dmg and 100 healing from each, she actually gains 100 extra healing but net-neutral on damage, since her healing orb heals for 300, having two that heal for 200, means she heals a bit more and can also heal while dealing damage at the same time moer often.

The idea really, is that the Devs want Supports to be more survivable, i think, thats what Kiriko really is, they said it themselves they want the supports to feel more like Kiriko and are looking at buffing their survivability, you cant just do that with Zen while keeping Discord what it is i dont think.

Gekigengar

Its more like she would be very hard to catch really and have more openings to start doing things, though thats the reason her inspire would last less, also, we are kinda waiting on how they are going to change Rally atm.

40% speed is to compesate for Aura range decrease, so that good Lúcio players can still apply his aura with good wall-riding.

As for the taxi’ing, i think that part of the game’s design is just not quite healthy, it leads to Lúcio being too important in alot of maps.

I dont get what you mean here, how does it get its value shut down when its also OP?

I think these changes are pretty neutral on Ress’s front, just bringing it more in line with the game’s quicker tempo, i think 20+ second cooldowns dont belong anymore.

How so? I think having to actually aim all of her abilities more and resource manage better but getting compesated with better stats overrall should be kinda fun.

His damage keeps being the same, 48/50 = 5%, actually he gains more dmg since he cant always shoot the discorded target, or barriers.

His team damage goes down significantly but he gets significantly more durable, its a fair tradeoff i think.

Candi

By sacrificing her mobility though.

I think that part of his kit, the Taxi’ing is a bit unhealthy and i think they should experiment with changing it.

Plus hes super meta, i think his ult is also super strong, some small nerfs there with compesation on his wallride i think is kinda fair.

Well, it comes with a big tradeoff, they seem to want to buff Supp’s survivabiltiy i think thats a decent way, we saw how that ends up, it seems effective.

Its not exactly dependendt , 2 bash charges are pretty self explanatory, even with slightly less dmg and cooldown, shes just much faster, though with more emphasys on being able to proc Inspire well.

Hm, maybe, its just taking away some power from the nade wich seems a bit much currently, again, and sorta giving some to sleep, making it fit the game’s tempo more.

Maybe 15 is a bit too low yeah, i was really thinking hard on that one either 20 or 15, if thats too low then maybe 75 health on the Generator and a bit less range?

Moira and Mercy changes are supposed to be net-buffs, skilled Mercys should be able to just get a net gain on healing and damage, plus Ress would fit on the newer quicker format more this way, i think, maybe.

Skilled Moiras would be rewarded with more healing and better spike value, likely.

Alot of this needs play-testing ofc.

Though in reality i think Mercy and Moira both kinda needs reworks of sorts, by trading Valk and Ress’s slots on Mercy’s kit and giving some sort of play-making on Moira’s kit and moving her away from this stat-monster she is.

22

Holy crap as a brig main im not a big fan of these changes i feel like this makes brig even worse and shes considerd the worst support at the moment it takes away her damage per second while giving her something she didn’t need more mobility with 2 bashes.while also nerfing her heals to 60 heals which is just freaking pathetic if you ask me yeah its just a no for me.

1 Like
23

Imagine you ress a Genji with ult, he gets up with 50% HP and -20% damage. Now his dragon blade is entirely useless. Same with Soldier, Rein, Orisa, Hog, etc etc etc.

Imagine you picked someone with Widow, and they ress back up every 15 sec. Is it possible to penetrate the defense? Nope, just keep ressing them back up. This leads to heavy turtling and just plain annoying game.

Moira is designed without any utility. She compensates with raw numbers. All these change just amplifies and make fighting against her just more less fun. I would instead just give her more utility in return for less numbers.

Nope, this just makes Zen less of a team player and more of a solo serial killer. Its not a good change at all. Now imagine 25 more HP with his current melee kick. Its just pure annoying to fight against as well, and to play with.

I agree, these changes are just annoying and bad. OP just doesn’t understand most of these heroes at all.

1 Like
24

So turn most supports into more team reliant healbots? These are terrible ideas.

6 Likes
25

Sorry maybe I misread…I took it to mean she got the stat buffs on top of GAing to someone. Did I misunderstand? Because I do think that actually would be interesting (as in, she is more stationary but has more power; thus is more vulnerable), but I’m not sure they’d take Mercy’s mobility away from her, even if people find it frustrating.

I don’t really think Lucio’s taxi’ing is unhealthy though. Lucio is not played for his heals. He’s not played for his damage, and he’s not played for his ult. he’s played because his passive speed is what helps his team. Literally getting people back into the fight quicker -or the initial fight to get an advantage. Being able to, while working as a team, push that advantage or take the strategic locations…you’re taking away a hugely valuable part of his kit by changing that…and I don’t even think stat buffs would make up for the strategic loss (which is the thoughtful part of his kit) for the hero.

I also do not think Lucio’s ult is nearly as strong as maybe you seem to think. It is still the slowest charging ult in the game, it is not charged through his primary value (which is speed boost), it has a variable cast time (one of the few in the game) and is entirely cancelable…and on top of that, he has to use it from a point of danger, during the danger, to get value out of it. It’s actually a hard ult to use; it has similar drawbacks as, say, Zen’s (in that Zen’s can be cancelled with Nade (which then can be cancelled by Suzu…).

And buffing his wallride, while it would be wacky and fun, I think it the wrong way to go about buffing him; it’s the part of Lucio’s kit people primarimary have an issue with to begin with (as he’s difficult to hit). Lucio has been a strongly meta pick once in the past few years, and that was for S1 of OW2. So for like…2 months? And his viability dropped dramatically in S2 with RH and OHK being the flavor du jour.

Sometimes a hero is meta not because their kit is too strong, but just because of other aspects of the game…so Lucio fell out of meta because RH is really overbearing. Kiriko will stay strong because I think she is too strong, but Ana (who was pretty balanced before her buff) fell out of favor just because of a shift in Kiriko (her direct counter) being strong…But, say, Mercy will stay a strong pick, IMO, because it’s about more than one hero; OHK is always going to feel oppressive. Mercy forces that with her DB kit.

In terms of general power balance for the supports, Kiriko is a little too strong, Ana is I think a tiny bit too strong, Moira is a joke (sorry, she needs so much work done it’s like an entirely different conversation), and Mercy, while balanced, has a kit that has become bad for the game. I think the other supports are pretty good -but feel bad because the game has taken a really toxic turn. But everyones experiences in varied SR will feel dramatically different. I’m a GM support player, so the way I view, say, Moira is going to be really different than maybe a Gold player.

26

Number buff/nerf is the worst approach at the moment
The gameplay experience is terrible.
If the balance team do the same as you mentioned, they should get fired.

1 Like
27
Jomar

Firstly, we dont have the new Rally yet, thats already supposed to be a buff.

You really think having two charges of Bash, even with doing less damage does not compesate 1 less second of Inspire ?

I think that might even be overkill, considering she would usually get an even better ultimate.

Gekigengar

The idea is to have Mercy stick to them and damage boost them/ heal them back up, it has a much more forgiving cooldown, ofc it has to be worse.

Also there is an bigger opening to punish the ressed target, is something you seem to be not realizing, you just push your advantage to punish her ressing some1 with nerfed stats.

As i said on the post, i agree, they are looking at reworking her for a while, i’m just trying to make her kit less DPS-Moira friendly with some tuning, is what.

I dont think he’d be a serial killer but i mean thats kinda what Zen wants to do, damage people , what else do you compesate? Harmony? Thats just kinda boring.

Thats just the Moira change pretty much, cuz shes likely too reliant on dpsing.

She needs a rework though and they are looking at one for a while so this is just an anti-dps Moira tune since its definetly a problem at the moment.

Candi

No she does GA to some1 but if you’re not utilizing the mobility and just using it for the stats, you’re then sacrificing the mobility, yknow?

Complicated discussion here, i think while yes, it brings some interesting strategy to the game, its ultimately a bit too out there i think, maybe, to design kits around, like how do you even compete or design supports that would play around the taxiing idea, its very unhealthy in that sense i think.

There must be a way, where strategy is somewhat kept decently while moving away from that specific usage of his kit, at least by nerfing its power a bit, maybe 10s of non-taxiing is too much, just making it not as good maybe the answer.

How does one move away from Lúcio being such a must pick on round-starts on KOTH specially, also Push has so much use for Taxin’g, its such a must have for high lvl play.

The thing is, Beat has been one of the strongest ultimates in the game for a while, i mean that on OW1, even while being able to cancel it or shield it, and back then it used to give 100% ult charge if some1 damaged the overhealth/shields, now it gives 50%, it was a pretty significant buff i think wich people seem to not realise.

So having one of the best ultimates in the game that got buffed get a bit of nerfing i think makes sense in that department.

The thing is, thats quite basically the most fun aspect of his kit, and my philosophy is to buff fun first, i think it ends up being more net-fun.

Its a combination of alot of things, but i think the easiest way i think to bring a Meta hero more in line is to bring their numbers down, ofc, if the numbers call for it and i think there are some numbers on Lúcio’s kit that can be tuned while keeping him still viable and fun.

The whole Kiriko > Ana > Hog is something that definetly needs adressing, but when it does happen, and it seems it will soon enough, Lúcio is gonna come back swinging so i think maybe tuning him down a couple is really pretty safe to say is likely an good idea.

Completely agree with all of this pretty much, though i think Bap and Lúcio kinda sleeper OP characters atm.

As i said on the post at times, tuning where it seems applicable, in the case of Mercy and Moira, they need reworks i think.

I just tuned them too cuz why not?

28

All you did with Moira was nerf a character that has no utility for her team. And made her have the same aim requirement as Zarya. Totally worthless character, with those changes.

29

Those are net buffs with some skill expression.

While she does less dps-Moira’ing, she gets a significant increase of her healing, 80 HP/s on her primary , 2 orbs at 200 max healing = better than one at 300 healing, plus she can heal and dps at the same time more often.

Though… as i put there, she definetly needs a rework and they are looking at one for a while to give her utility, all i did was try and move her away from DPS-Moira and more into resource management and healing.

30

Okay, its highly risky to actually ress anyone in higher ranks. Most of the time you’d end up dying. Or at best, you died, but you’ve successfully ressed someone.

Usually I would give my life if it means they can be ressed with an ult. But this is just not the case with your changes. Losing all that value is not worth changing current res.

Be more creative. Give him speed and armor buff if orb is not planted on team-mate for example.

31

Yep i know, is why i think Mercy in reality needs to be reworked instead, this is just an number tune to bring long cooldowns down.

Thats more in line of a rework, plus too out there, my idea is more in line with how they have been tuning things, i dont think Zen needs a rework either.

Sometimes less = more.

32

When orb isn’t planted on a team-mate, that means you’re probably flanked and out of position. This would give him more power against flankers when hes forced to move around. It should be very easy to implement too since they have to track where the orb currently is. (1 orb limit)

33

I understand, again i dont think he needs that lvl of change but lemme humour it for a sec.

The issue with that idea that i have is that he doesnt have an easy way to bring back his Orb, there is no reason for him to do it currently , so if you wanted said bonuses you’d depend on your teammate to break LOS.

But again, i dont think he needs something of that sort, it would likely make Zen a bit too selfish at times, when just giving him 25 extra HP/Shields just gets the same result of making Zen more survivable.

34

Here’s a thought about suzu change i havent seen yet;
What if the invulnerability phase of suzu worked like moiras fade - in the sense that people affected by the invulnerability cannot shoot during it. and maybe not use abilities (dunno about that).

since you also cannot be interacted with at all, it should be fair that it would be the same the other way around.
this would make it a lot more purely a defensive ability.
it’s quite cheap to get shot by something that you cant do anything against.

though it would then have a bit of trolling potential.

35

i mean this is what happens when metal rank players try to play “im going to balance the game.”

these changes are just as bad as if someone decided to buff the support heroes dmg while changing nothing else.

there has to be a give and take and the end result has to be fun for the person playing it (and there needs to be counter player even if its as simple as “hero is squishy and easily diveable”) while not being absolutely busted.

36

Hoho! A support thread! Finally I feel like I can give some input:

I’m pretty fine with this actually. Though I still think Swift step needs a longer CD. I feel like people sleep on how strong it is. She basically always has it. I’ve seen some people suggest her healing gets nerfed and iirc the suggestion is because she out HPS Mercy and frankly that’s silly to me. If you want to nerf her HPS you should be wanting to do it because of how strong her Ult is.
Currently she plays in a heal bot like fashion because that’s how strong her ult is. But I still don’t suggest that.

I would like to hear your thoughts on these changes.

I disagree. I don’t think Lucio needs adjusting. He or Kiriko already get dropped when another support fits the situation better. I don’t think we should be trying to kick Lucio out. The only change I could get behind would making his ult cost more.

Interesting suggestion in order to encourage more active play out of lower MMR Mercy players. Though I disagree since GA is only on a 1 second cooldown. You’d basically be giving her a perma buff this way. Even if GA was on a longer cooldown (which I can’t stress enough is not what I want) I don’t like the idea of making her healing potential stronger outside of her ultimate. I’d be fine if this change only boosted her damage buff though.

I like the idea of making it more available but the people come back with not max HP. Though I think for this idea to shine they’ed need to reduce it’s cast time slightly. I don’t think the debuff is needed. Either less HP or less damage output. Not both.

I really think they should just let Mercy dual wield her pistol and staff in this mode.

Very confused on the changes here. More so wondering why you didn’t give him any sort of survivability ability or movement ability. They’ve tried rebalancing his HP/shields before and it felt too strong.

37

All reasonable changes aside from a few. the lucio ones don’t rlly make sense to me at all, it’d be helpful to add a ““dev comment”” part to see what you were going for. I think i see what you were going for with the mercy GA changes, but In practice it’d just make her spam GA to her pocket on cd which is a bit silly. I’d be careful buffing zen primary to 50 bc it’s let him two shot headshot w/out discord which could be a bit frustrating getting two tapped by volley before being able to react.

38

The Brig changes completely miss the mark and make her no better than she currently is.
Brig’s current problems are survivability, mobility and being outclassed by other supports.

I’d like to see the following buffs to Brig, setting aside her ultimate until we actually know what the devs have planned. With these changes, the aim is to make her better in the lower ranks.

I understand that higher ranks place more value and emphasis on utility, but until we see what her new ultimate brings to the table, I’d like to avoid adding anything new to her kit or bringing back her stun.

  • HP increased from 150hp to 200hp
  • Barrier movement speed penalty reduced from 30% to 15%.
  • Barrier cooldown reduced from 5 seconds to 3 seconds.
  • Repair Pack Cooldown reduced from 6 seconds per charge to 3 seconds per charge.
  • Primary fire damage increased to 40 per swing, up from 35 per swing.
1 Like
39

Wow, there are fewer and fewer support players and instead of making the role more fun, these ideas basically nerf almost all of them. Plus they remove a lot of the impact support has. Disconnection from reality once again.

3 Likes
40
grgr

It would likely be a bit too annoying getting silenced by your teammate but maybe it could work…

Tho i think this one also can be balanced with the right tuning.

KnightRaime

Well the idea is to have Brig’s playstyle be more active, with less just depending on having targets come to you, having 2 Bash charges, with less damage, means she has ways to get in then get out or get in even easier, overrall more mobility.

But obviously she would have to be balanced by having more risk on her Inspire since she has more chances to activate it, though it might be a bit much, considering she was already meta at JQ meta and shes getting a better ultimate (likely), shes not as bad as most people think.

I think the “taxiing” part of the game is a bit unhealthy and is part of the reason Lúcio has been a bit too must pick on KOTH/Push (now) i think changing that opens up the door to buff Lúcio’s more fun part of his kit if he really dropped out too much.

And also i think people kinda missed the big buff Sound Barrier got when coming to OW2, back then it used to give full ult charge, now it gives 50%, thats pretty big, for most likely one of the strongest ultimates in the game to get buffed like that i feel like really asks for nerfs.

I mean its not exactly permanent since you kinda would have to be careful with not using GA at the wrong time, maybe the buff lasting 2.5s is a bit much, maybe 2s.

I think this also encourages more active play on Mercy in general, not just low MMR, its honestly an pretty small change of impact.

Halving its cooldown is pretty big, even though its a pretty situational ability with its long cast time, then also even more punish time to catch out the weaker ressurected target, but maybe a smaller cast time would be needed too.

The real problem though is that Ress, to me, is just impossible to balance out really and the only real way it can be an ability is if its her Ultimate, so again, as i said on the post as well, i think what Mercy really needs is to Ress to go back to her Ultimate and Valkyrie be the active play making ability she has.

By just completely removing the weapon switch time on it, maybe that could be a cool change but i think again, Valk should be an ability not her ulti.

For the exact reason he felt too strong with 225HP, Discord also would need to be less opressive to allow for it, having him deal 2 more damage, balances out his own damage back but his team damage goes down for it, i think its a fair trade.

With Kiriko getting a fair nerf, he wouldnt need to just get power crept so hard.

badonkadussy

I usually dont go for the “Non-Dev comment” part since it adds too much to read and usually people dont read that much.

Well, the idea is that if you just spammed it you would get caught out of position at times, plus she has ways to use GA more actively now with the whole cancelling thing so i think it could be balanced.

Well, i know, absolutely, its why Discord needs to take a hit first for that to happen and having Discord be less opressive definetly opens up that door for skilled Zens to thrive a bit more on volley sniping and stuff.

Kaitsja

I think you didnt stop to really think what having two Bash charges, even though they do half the damage (wich is not really alot) really opens up on Brig, its a ton of mobility, with two bashes, she’d be able to get in and out of situations much more commonly.

Yeah, most if not all of these changes avoid reworking the characters and are just tuning, as i said on Moira’s and Mercy’s, the devs are already cooking up stuff so theres no point, so the same applies for Brig, i think Brig can be pretty fun and effective with her current iteration, shes just a bit too one dimensional.

  • 50 HP is alot.
  • Barrier changes are okay tbh but thats kinda what i went for but more actively with bashing around.
  • Halving Repair pack cooldown with no compesation nerfs is absolute madness, thats way too much.
  • Upping her damage by a bit i can see it but i dont think thats the most important thing to change
Hagal

I think i only really nerfed Kiriko and Lúcio, the two most meta ones, by a bit with compesation, all of the rest are either neutral or more impactful in the newer quicker tempo with less cooldown to wait around, ofc number tuning is very difficult to get right without playtesting, the ideas is what matter.