If a support focuses on healing: “Nothing dies!” or “No skill heal bots are ruining the game!”
If a support focuses on damage: “A support shouldn’t beat a DPS in a duel!” or “If you’re gonna heal you can’t do that much damage!”
If a support focuses on enabling: “I shouldn’t have to have a support to do my job!” or “It’s not fair! If the enemy is being boosted and I’m not I lose!”
From this, I can only conclude that DPS players want ineffectual targets to shoot.
Less CC means genji is stronger. Supports having less to heal and having less to heal means they have more resources to deal with. It’s mentioned in the last dev post. All your really saying here is the balance of the game has changed. Doesn’t really relate to anything I said.
This is a perfect example of you not understanding the game.
Mercy kit is better at escaping a duel than fighting a duel.
Leaving w/e that dove you to become someone else problem is a good thing as in most cases that person will have a better kit to duel and kill that hero.
While you have a better kit to escape and enable someone. It’s a basic of maximizing value.
The fact you think, if you escape a duel as mercy and someone else might die is a reason mercy should be able to 1v1 and kill someone… is a massive strech and shows a lack of understanding of how mercy currently wins games.
More to “emphasis on the individual’s contributions” than winning a 1v1 duel by killing someone.
For example, your healing is more impactful as there is less to heal + healing on armor is 30% more effective. Where and how you heal is so much more effective than it was in 6v6. The fact you believe it’s obvious when you think mercy escaping a duel is a problem shows how limited you thinking about this.
That all said,
Nothing you really said disproved that, I’d agrue the mercy dueling thing is you taking things more out of context proving my point more.
That is why they say gitgud. I can 1v1 any dps with Ana/Bap/Moira, it is matter of mechanical skill on top of your already overloaded support kit on top of 15hps after 1s behind any LoSing cover. What else you need dog?
When I have some actual reddit lucio on my butt, I barely survive or take L most of the time, I wish I could be that good with Lucio, so I can lock that hero.
Most of the supports I kill as dps are moving like bots, wasting their abilities and don’t have them in a duel, and just run away instead of trying to kill me using aim, when they obviously won’t make the escape.
doesn’t mean there are others that have the mobility that does resulting them dodging attacks.
if a sole an ana nade was all that was needed to kill a tracer, she wouldn’t have been so picked and nor would she have been meta in OG dive. the point made wasn’t about trying to land nade, it’s about the other weapon fire shots necessary.
1 aoe and 1 auto aim… totally aren’t lenient aim tools /s
like the point still stands… ._.
again, like 3/4 tools listed being lenient aim tools that actually contest anti-dive… I don’t see how my point is invalid here.
do the rest of the support have such tools and to that amount? no, some don’t even have tools to contest and have to just escape offloading the problem to someone else. not to mention brig loses 1 of them + healing got nerfed.
how is this disproving my point as to how the state of peel and self peel tools in OW2 aren’t sufficient?
it would be easy for the pharah if the ana is scoped in elsewhere unaware of a pharah in los until they got hit of which is more likely in OW2 with more flank routes.
not to mention again, most supports can’t even reasonably shoot a pharah as she’d be out of their weapon’s effective range.
and a genji doesn’t need to take as long to travel from 1 side of the point to another and they can damage simultaneously with closing that gap —> less risk involved and not as situational.
you totally missed the point regarding how tanks being more aggro will cause
you may not experience the 2nd point as much on ana (whom you like to base all your arguments on) as she’s basically the only main healer that’s good for spread out comps because she just needs los as opposed to additionally being worried about effective range like most other supports. but for supports more reliant on teammates grouping up, that’s a whole lot more noticeable and will drain your resources more to keep up for that. and the same also applies when trying to go to dps instead of healing too.
however, the more face value point also being made there was that even on ana, if you want to be able to dps at anytime at will, you will need to be in enemy los to do so, esp if you want them to dps more.
which again, unless you’re somehow always pickbacked by your heal target (i.e. somehow always immediately right behind the heal target no matter how they move), there will be a significant delay and inconsistency in aim, both resulting in significantly lowered output for both dps and heals as you have to do huge angle flicks frequently esp when dps and heal targets move. and thus highly likely not achieving the necessary level of sustain to keep the heal target alive and/or get the kill.
which is on a high cd… i.e. relying on that for your argument means you inherently wouldn’t have many opportunities to do as you described (dps and heal at the same time) as it’s easily drained out letting some other opponent play to have more impact and win (e.g. a flank or got forbid an ult)…
and if you’re relying on such a long cd to simply have a chance at impact or a play or to not be passive, then how is it not demonstrating my point as to how current support designs not actually allowing for “more non-passive play”?
and you only have 1 of them on a longer cd and it’s part of your lifeline as ana —> similar issues as trying to argue “just rely on lamp to be able to kill and keep ally alive at the same time”.
and even for you boosted heals argument, you’re still needing to continuously heal to get that before you can dps as opposed to doing both at the same time, the latter would actually get you more dps uptime.
which you can only benefit from either heals or boost…
if you’ve flicked back to heals, you don’t get boost value, same with vice versa.
this hasn’t even gone into the fact that boost itself isn’t individual impact given how it doesn’t take the quality of the user’s inputs into how much value it gets.
and esp with mercy hps, if you’re trying to sustain someone, you’re much less likely capable sustaining someone if you don’t continuously heal for the engagement.
and heck how is this any different to now which yall call is “too passive”?
like you can’t go “yall too passive play more active and dps/kill more for OW2 git gud” and then proceed to literally describe OW1 gameplay as what’s active and is “more dpsing for kills”.
hence why I’ve been saying, if you want supports to be more “active” and “kill more”, they will need to be reworked to do so rather than shoehorning the current designs that weren’t made to get gameplay that can dps more.
and if you don’t want them to get the reworks to enable that, and also don’t want them to be able to sustain as many people into not dying, it really begs the question of what do you want support individual impact and individual plays to be in game where supposedly individual impact and individual plays are emphasised?
Are they supposed to make something unkillable?
which I find highly doubtful as other roles have been made more capable of killing individually for that higher emphasis on individual impact and plays.
i.e. situations whereby “the teammate wouldn’t be able to confirm the kill in the first place” will be a lot more niche and less likely —> how much individual impact and individual playmaking will supports have really? most likely little which contradicts OW2 expectations.
and trying to argue “creating 2v1”/numbers advantage situation isn’t really much of an argument as any hero that can make any non-negligible contribution of any kind when turning a 1v1 to a 2v1 will be advantageous.
The question at hand is how much their contribution is, what it is, how likely they can do it, and what changes to their kit they’ll need to meet the expectations of OW2.
no because then you go from a hero with low skill ceiling + high skill expression —> low skill ceiling + no skill expression.
a hero in a state of low skill ceiling + high skill expression is not fine, and the argument of “it’s not fine if they removed it” isn’t a valid one to try and justify the current state as being fine.
like nerfing OW1 bastion rn wouldn’t be fine for his balance, does that mean his current state for OW1 is balanced and fine? no.
your argument there doesn’t actually apply to your zen example considering heal orb has no baring of how zen defends himself.
when applying that argument to other supports, that’s not necessarily true either because of similar mutual exclusivity in types of values support tools get. e.g. you can’t repurpose mercy’s heal beam to help her get picks or defend herself more, and heal beam is a decent chunk of her value/contributions for impact. neither can you repurpose brig’s packs to help her kill more.etc.
it is relevant because what you said previously was simply “you can rely on teammates so that you can position around them to create favorable dueling situations against genji”. like if zen can rely on his teammates to help create favorable situations, the same can fairly be said about favorable situations for genji in him utilising his team. like it’s entirely a moot point to bring up ._.
First off, a technical correction is that the other teammate has a better kit than you as mercy to duel and kill that threat.
Now that doesn’t mean mercy escaping made it more possible for that threat to be dealt with.
e.g. a flanker jumping a mercy near say a sniper or another support or some other hero with a lack of peel tools like zen: mercy escaping there doesn’t mean that the ally who inherently lacks peel tools that the flanker who will subsequently target will suddenly have an advantage at dealing with the flanker despite inherently lacking tools to do so.
further, even if mercy maintained a heal beam on them as they escape or even after they escape, it’s still not adding much to actually help (e.g. if the sniper or zen isn’t hitting shots, they will die and the healing is just prolonging their death and mercy can’t do much else to help).
contrast this with a hero that can actually directly contest with the threat like how cass in OW1 can stun and then double tap/FTH to kill or severely hurt the threat, or alternatively brig cc’ing away the threat denying the entire engagement, simply escaping simply is just low individual impact.
and this is just considering 1 sole enemy.
the situation becomes a lot worse for mercy if say the ally whom the flanker moves on to after mercy escapes is already dealing with another enemy because then very likely it’s a 2v1 for mercy’s ally.
and even in the scenario where mercy maintains beam on the ally after they escape, it’s still an unfavorable situation because damage numbers > heal numbers let alone talking about dealing with 2 damage sources, and obvs she doesn’t deal as high damage nor does +30% damage of a hero isn’t going to compete well either (1.3 < 2).
if your contributions are highly reliant/conditional on others’ for outcomes/results/value, then it does mean your individual contributions have low individual impact.
esp when compared to someone else that can get the same outcome/result on their own.
It’s relevant. It determines the positioning I can take on a map and therefore where I can force a duel to happen. Again showing you take things out of context of the game.
is not the same as
If you have to change what I said to make a point. You’re straw-manning. Which was my point from the start…
Which you legit did just now. Not really left I can say. But I’ll pull the rest apart for fun not to prove anything as my points has been as far as I’m concerned…
dps having bad positioning or not being able to outskill a flanker that used it’s resources on you is just a skill difference thing.
Also healing to stop an elim or damage boosting to win the fight is a lot of help. 2 v 1s are hard. You know that tho cause you said
This true with or without mercy
Mercy doesn’t escape and just stop providing value to a team fight game is still a 5v5. No hero can engage 24/7 GA cooldown is 1.5sec the length of a reload. Maybe your problem on mercy if you don’t think about escaping to places of value but that’s not how the game works.
Example… Ana pocket’s an Orisa and doesn’t die.
This has a massive individual impact because her individual impact on a team fight is huge.
If mercy pockets an Ashe and it converts a hit into a killing cause of boost… that is mercy having a larger individual impact.
What you’re confusing is you’re reading individual impact and thinking how much value you get solo.
Where going from 6v6 to 5v5 every individual will have more impact and that’s what they mean.
except I didn’t change what you said. you’re literally saying to rely on teammates to get such a position. which can equally be said about genji rely on his teammates to force the zen out of that position and into 1 more favorable to genji.
obvs not every spot on the map (without considering whre teammates are yet) are possible candidates for the kind of position you speak of. now factoring where teammates are to get the value you speak of, you then filter out those candidates. and obviously whether a certain candidate is available for both the value AND the advantage in case a flanker jumps you is entirely dependent on where teammates are —> rely on teammates as to whether you have such a position whereby you get value AND can possibly advantageous.
And obvs it’s entirely possible genji’s teammates play well in a way that forces zen’s teammates to be in places whereby no candidate spot is available.
hence my point, it can equally be said that genji can basically do the same for his favor, and what you’re bringing up is a moot point.
I mean first off, where did the premise even imply or necessitates that the situations is caused by mercy’s ally having bad positioning?
2ndly, there wouldn’t have been a lot of resources used because mercy has to be <=15m from their beam target and that range is very close to the effective ranges of most traditional flankers let alone non-traditional flankers (e.g. god forbid sojourn with her now 6s cd dash + decent range is the flanker).
and 3rdly, the fact that it comes down to a skill difference between the other 2 heroes and not what mercy or any other support that escaped did is kinda the point I’m making no?
like how much individual impact is escaping doing there even? often you turn what would’ve been a 2v1 to a 1v1.
and even if you try to maintain the 2v1:
^this last bit shows that mercy isn’t doing much for the “2v1” anyways.
like if even in maintaining a 2v1 it’s still coming down to a skill diff between the non-mercy teammate vs the threat and there’s hardly any way for mercy’s skill diff to actually shift/change that, how much individual impact and playmaking is mercy having by escaping compared to another hero/support that can actually contest/confront/fight the threat? very little.
and this isn’t really limited to mercy, for many of the other supports that have escapes, they will likely be out of range to contribute and/or don’t really have that great tools in peeling leading to the same problem.
even if hypothetically mercy escaping to another teammate to create a different 2v1 in favor of mercy’s team elsewhere, there are still problems with that argument:
even assuming the positive outcome of that is that your new 2v1 leads to a kill, that’s only balancing out how mercy left a teammate to die. and for both sub-“duels”, it comes down to a skill diff between other plays with mercy’s skill not mattering as much in both. —> showing that mercy doe sin fact have low individual impact
what if your win condition like a key ult is on the hero the mercy just left? or god forbid both team’s win conditions are on the heroes dueling that mercy left. being capped to trading that in for maybe a pick elsewhere isn’t exactly what anyone would call having individual impact.
except the outcome of orisa not dying via a pocket isn’t all that reliant on orisa as opposed to ana. like unless the orisa just throws (which no-one can do anything about), orisa coming out alive is a direct consequence of ana’s playmaking esp with all of the burst heals she has.
contrast that with mercy who has no burst heals for further swaying to keep someone alive while her base hps isn’t very impressive to sustain someone (often bursted through), and for boost to even possibly actuate any value it’s very much entirely conditioned on the target aiming and target prioritising well as opposed to a direct consequence of mercy’s inputs.
that’s not “larger individual impact” at all.
I think support should mostly be about keeping people alive. I think maybe the methods should be more clutch and reactive though. example: I think intercepting a hog hook with a brig shield charge is awesome but spamming moria vape into a tank is zzz.
Understand that I literally didn’t because to literally say that I would literally have to write ‘rely’.
Also when you quote something " " and you change the context you are literally misquoting someone.
Now you thought I meant “rely on teammates to get such a position” except I meant you take position based on the map and your team. Rely would indercate I would need them to play a certain way to take a position which you do not.
Genji can’t take a position and discord a tank. Hence my point you take duel out of context of 5v5 and it’s utterly pointless. Heroes have different kits.
It’s quoted before and uses the the word or
So yea if you ignore the time taken, and resources used to get there then yea I can see how you think it isn’t a lot. Again not taking things in the context of 5v5 on a map.
You don’t understand odds or averages with a statement like this.
If you have a 2 equal skill crees and they fight over infinite fights they’ll win 50% of the time
Add a mercy to one of them the pocketed Cassidy will win more say +30% meaning the odds off winning would be 70%
What you’re doing is observing a situation where the unpocketed Cassidy loses and saying mercy provides no value to the 2v1.
This is objectively not true because you’ve take her value out of context.
An extreme example of this rolling a die and it coming up 6 and you saying when you roll a die always comes up 6.
Mercy flies of to get value in context of a 5v5 the duels is over. 2v1s, 1v1s, 3v2s … doesn’t matter to only talk about another 2v1 is taking it out of contexts and you guessed it… not taking things in the context of 5v5 on a map.
I don’t understand your point at all here… So I’ll clarify.
Orisa has more resources because of the ana enabling her to have a higher potential value. Ana’s individual impact is providing orisa with more potential value.
Ana providing one hero with more potential value in a 5v5 has more individual impact than in a 6v6.
That was my point.
Mercy providing one hero with more potential value in a 5v5 has more individual impact than in a 6v6.
I ain’t gonna touch the hps argument fact you don’t mention mercy’s damage boost once or how having a healer enables a dps to engage faster just proves your taking something out of context to prove my point yet agian.
except that entirely means the same thing in context as I explained. clearly not every spot on a given map would be favorable for zen in zen vs flanker. and obviously where you can position for value on teammates further filters/limits which of those spots you can take at any given moment.
both of this adds up to you “relying on teammates to get such a position”.
teammates CAN be somewhere that forces you to make a mutual exclusive choice between being in spot where you can have an advantage in a duel vs being somewhere where you can get value.
and for there to be an overlap, you do in fact rely on them to position somewhere where you don’t need to make a mutually exclusive decision.
and neither can zen without exposing himself unless the enemy tank is like yoloing trying to 1 v many. you may argue “but you can play around teammates to get more cover, or teammates distract enemy fire, etc.” but again my point is that that can equally be said for genji or any other flanker.
e.g. with sombra with team diving overcoming a deathball positioning:
hence why I’m saying “play around your team” is a moot point. both sides can do it to get in their favor.
except nowhere in what I said before in the quote implies nor explicitly states that the ally mercy was beaming and being forced to move away from in their escape had bad positioning. nor is it unreasonable for a teammate to be near mercy given mercy’s effective range is 15m…
sure you used the word or, but you did in fact insinuate that my argument did rely on that premise when it didn’t…
if you’re reaper whose effective range is quite literally melee then sure, but for a fair amount of flankers their ranges are more than that. and again, the non-traditional flankers with longer range would be flanking more in OW2. soldier, sojourns, echo (well she was already a flanker in the first place, but still non traditional), arguably even more of the tanks and snipers would flank more for off angles.
even if mercy is at max beam range,
uh no I had multiple points there, none of which you encapsulated the meaning of.
like if in a 2v1 whereby your ally is lacking and your skill (no matter how high it is) can’t possibly compensate for your ally lacking to make the outcome of the 2v1 any meaningfully different than if it was just a 1v1 between your ally and the threat, simply due to the kit you’re on, how can you possibly conclude that such a kit has high individual impact? or even as high individual impact as the other heroes?
except creating another sub-2v1 is exactly what’s happening when she flies off to someone else when escaping a threat in a 5v5 teamfight. none of my points there are irrelevant.
mercy beaming an ally to take someone on is a 2v1 regardless of whether that’s isolated from the rest of the teams or whether it’s poking an individual enemy near some other enemies or whether it’s focus firing on a particular enemy in a group.
mercy flying away from that ally and onto someone else to beam is in fact reducing that sub-engagement/sub-“duel”/focus fire by 1 person and adding an extra person elsewhere.
and my point there, is that the way that happens is because ana herself has the level of burst heals, that’s entirely determined by the ana player’s skill, whereby an orisa that’s genuine (i.e. not throwing) will find it hard to die with an ana pocket.
i.e. whether orisa dies or not (or whether she gets more potential value or not) is in fact decided by the ana player’s skill as opposed to the orisa’s, which is individual impact.
i.e. this example doesn’t not disprove what I said earlier:
or you’re just not understanding nor seemingly actually reading what’s written apparently (I clearly did talk about boost yet you claim I didn’t… 
) as opposed to me “taking things out of context”.
So supports individual impact comes from their ults, which btw they get slower AND less of.
The thing is you’re trying to say what I mean. I could be wrong or whatever as I’m expressing my opinion on the point. When I take positioning it is based on the map and my/enemy team and I consider it playing around them. Then within this a million things could happen and I’ll reactively play around that.
I do not rely on my teammates to do anything outside of playing overwatch which is akin to me relying on my character not to clip through the ground. In the context of taking a position that will give me the advantage of dueling Genji in a 1v1 so that I have an advantage over I don’t rely on my team as even without them I can gain advantages in other ways.
Regardless of what I think… you are telling me what I mean and misquoting me and when callout out on it you double down to tell me what I mean. My opinion could be wrong but I’m right when I tell you I know what I mean and especially when I clarify it. It’s a little egotistical to think you know what I mean over just disagreeing and your counterpoint is based of a presumution your wrong about and then flawed.
Except, it isn’t for it to be a moot point it would have to have no impact on a duel. Yes both sides can use it and how effectively each side uses is a skill thing and the point of the post when you’re talking about “get gud”
Also posting of a top 500 sombra player in quick play to prove a point about balance… out… of … context LMAO
If mercy GA to 3 team members fight 4 people she moves into a 4v4. So it’s not exactly what happen it’s one of anything that could happen and that’s why I said it’s out of context. (more to it than this but it explained it before)
yep misread it. My bad. Don’t worry I won’t correct you twice and tell you I know what you mean when I’m in the wrong.
Ashe pokes takes a 100 dmg, moves to cover.
With mercy can get healed fast and reengages more quickly than she would without enabling a higher potential.
Saying she doesn’t have enough burst heals to enable someone to have a higher potential is wrong objectively. She may not have enough healing that increased potential isn’t enough balance wise but that’s very different than a sweeping claim.
While I think mercy does heal plenty, I wouldn’t make any claims like she does until we get comp and such because making such claim without that context would be flawed and silly.
You do it though, which means you either understand the game better than pros/dev without the context of comp or you just making sweeping statement that are so far out of context because I dunno it’s easy that explaining something that is in context and balanced.
I want to end on this because I feel this is why your point of view about balance is wrong.
Except… how, when, and who mercy pockets are all determined by her skill, and this correlates to how many games she’ll win shows how people can improve and climb on mercy and can also consistently reach the same rank.
You claim that there is a “disconnect between the mercy player’s skill and how much value she can provide for the 2v1” because “the outcome of the 2v1 still is determined by the skill diff of ally”
In a single isolated situation, this is true.
That said over an infinite game the skill of the dps averages out and the only variable that YOU can change is your own skill.
As your skill increase, you’ll win more 2v1s and you’ll climb and the average of the DPS goes up as well.
It’s a simple statistical model that explains why better mercy climbs to higher SRs and is backed up by those observations.
To put it basically, over infinite games the skill level of the DPS doesn’t even factor into your win rate because of the averages and the only factor that determines winrate is your skill. Which also shows there is a connection between your skill and 2v1 you take.
Now, while this model is really good to remove variables that take things out of context it does have a flaw it done of infinite matches. Which does mean you have to play enough games for your skill to overcome the randomness of the skill of others.
Which is a real issue people have with mercy and an issue dev and pro know about. That said that is not a disconnect of her skill to her decision-making.
The tdlr… Mercy is about playing the odds and her skill increases the odds which shows a correlation between her skill in 2v1 and winrates and disproves a dissconnect.
it’s not egotistical to show that practically and factuallyit’s the same thing no matter how much you want to sugarcoat it into sounding as if you have 100% control/agency on the matter.
there isn’t always a spot whereby you can both get value relative to where your teammate(s) are (of which you do not control, and your teammates do and you have 0 say over that) AND also be capable of limiting options of threats to make such an engagement to your advantage.
“rely on teammates to get such a position” = “play around teammates to get such a position” because factually you as zen don’t have complete control/agency on the matter, esp when your teammates very likely have more mobility.
except the fact that both sides can do so doesn’t mean it just comes down to a skill issue, because evidently coordinated dive > whatever most supports try to “play around teammates” even if coordinated. hence the point that it’s inherently unreasonable to ask people to “git gud” when the sheer capability to do what they want/expect isn’t really there.
regardless it’s still leaving someone else to fend off >=1 enemy on their own and whether that threat is dealt with is entirely outside of the scope of mercy’s inputs post escape.
you can’t call that more individual impact when she’s got nothing to do with it anymore.
except the difference that I’m pointing out here to show the flaw in trying to equate ana’s capability in keeping someone alive with mercy’s as individual impact as you did, is that because ana has burst heals, she’s less reliant on allies in NEEDING to take cover/play more passively and have down time to sustain them through a fight to get “higher potential”.
that less reliance on what the teammate’s doing to force feed them to be alive is exactly why ana has higher individual impact and high individual play making through sustain than mercy.
choosing a different horse to bet on in a horse race doesn’t change the fact that you are only spectating the horses race with no real input to the actual horse race compared to actually participating in or sabotaging the race.
you can make all the right decisions as to who to boost/pocket based on all the current info you have, but whether such a decision actually actuates higher value is still predominantly determined by the inputs of your target in that given moment.
e.g. all the info thus far in the match would lead you to correctly believe teammate A is carrying so you choose to boost them, but they can very well whiff during your boost causing you to have literally 0 value and you still have 0 say on the matter no matter how well you’re playing, how good your decision was.
That obviously is not high individual impact. You as an individual had literally 0 say in that outcome.
not really. as your skill increases, you as mercy can still only provide EITHER 1 of 55hps or +30% boost.
if 55hps wasn’t enough sustain to save them in low tier, it’s not going to change in higher tier in the same situation. It’s still 55hps in both situations and obviously if there’s any outcome changed, it literally can only be caused by the remaining factors that can possibly be changed: what the non-mercy players are doing. if that’s not high indicative of mercy’s low individual impact then what are you smoking?
and +30% boost literally does not take into account the mercy’s inputs as to how much value it gets at any given moment. no matter how you position, how you move or how you press the button will change the core mechanic that makes the actuation of boost value be in the hands of the boostee.
sure you can position better to prolong how long you can boost (assuming the boostee doesn’t die), but the issue is about how much value mercy can get in x time spend boosting AND how that much value is connected/caused/actuated by the quality of mercy’s inputs to boost, of which is essentially 0.
it straight up is a disconnect of her skill to her outputs.
deterministically getting value X based on the quality of your own inputs/decisions like most other heroes > trying to stochastically achieve it via factors outside of the user’s control.
the literal mechanics of the vast majority of her value gaining actions do not take the quality of her inputs (whether mechanical or decision making) into account.
Ok say that to yourself. Nice how you tell me how you think I sound. Over your character you do control our side of that everything else is a variable I made that very clear. You misread and misunderstood my point. Again.
Already disagreed with get gud statment. My point was your taking it out of context. That said it is a skill to adapt and play round your team and it does help a duel. You haven’t proved its not.
No I can’t and I explained if you measure Mercy’s value in a single moment like this it’s out of context and hence why you use simple statiscal model.
Guess you missed all that. Good job repeating a point I already countered.
Don’t care what your pointing out you said…
I showed she has some. Nothing more to it. Wanna make a sweeping statment like that the your taking stuff out context to make things sound better. But a falsehood is a falsehood.
And you can choose which and who and how you do it. Which is were the skill lies if you want to ignore everything around it… Out of context.
Explained via a statistical model how you can measure it and where the connect is. Don’t want to debunk that and just claim it doesn’t sure… All I’ll say is already explained it feel free to counter but just saying it doesn’t doesn’t prove anything.
I sound like someone that’s focused on facts ._.
like if you don’t want to admit you’re wrong, then don’t reply, rather than falsely claiming that others misread or misunderstood.
Except you can’t call “adapting and playing around team to help a duel” as individual impact when
as I’ve been pointing out thus far.
I never said it didn’t help, I’ve been saying it’s insufficient and can’t be relied on to be argued as “individual impact” for supports.
no, I didn’t bother addressing the “statistical model” in much depth because it simply isn’t relevant to individual impact and individual playmaking.
how one can DETERMINISTICALLY get (or even force out) a meaningful outcome (like a kill or saving life etc.) based on their quality of inputs is what’s matters to individual impact and individual playmaking.
not “hey doing this over a number of trials(/games), with various factors you leave free from any controls you can put in via your own inputs in-game, leads to higher expected value”.
i.e. about a deterministic causation rather than a questionable probablistic causation.
I alluded to this when I said:
just because you didn’t understand what I meant doesn’t mean I misread, missed or misunderstood what you said.
and I’ve already argued on the moreso macro scale before which you thought was irrelevant but actually is relevant:
again it wasn’t out of context.
again, what matters for individual impact and individual playmaking is in fact just how the individual can deterministically get meaningful outcomes based on the quality of their own inputs.
more on this below.
There’s objectivity for you… If you don’t want to admit I’m right don’t reply…
I’m not claiming I’m right I’m expressing my opinion and explaining in detail why you are taking things out of context… While you’re making sweeping statements and you’re telling me not to reply.
Except I explained how individual impact is increasing the chances to win and over many games your out of context cases don’t matter. And again you just explain how that’s wrong just repeat what you said.
It’s relevant because the model averages out dps effect on your skill and relates to your impact on winning games which is directly relevant to your individual impact.
To say it isn’t is either saying your winrate isn’t effected by your individual impact or the model is incorrect and without that explaination you aren’t continuing or adding to the discussion.
Fact is I and you have pointed out the flaw to the way you see things as you admitted you can’t see a connection between Mercy’s skill in a 2v1 I explained if you saw in boarder context you can see the connect. This all under the presumption skill is related to win rate and rank. If it’s not you need to prove a bronze and Top500 mercy have the same impact.
I quote you taking the game out of context. It would be hard to say you took anything I said out context because you don’t describe in any detail why it’s wrong and repeat the same point again.
… Lmao it’s a model that uses statistics… Ok call it what ever you want.
Your counter point is that your a professional. I get paid to work to. Let me just say well done. I said your issue is you take thing out of context and you use your profession to prove a point about mercy… Well done on using an out context point to prove your not taking things out of context.
in simple term I explained over I infinite games the only skill that matters is the Mercy’s as the dps skill will average out. As a professional feel to exaplain why this is wrong. Ps this probably on the level of high school understanding.
PPS while you may be a professional the way you write is far from it (capitalising word and bold) and shows you don’t take this in a professional manner. If I had to say how your writing looks it’s more emotional than professional.
except I legit didn’t take anything out of context and directly addressed relevant points you raised. I explained how exactly “play around your teammates” equates to “relying on teammates” and how its insufficiency to change askew in the matchup (because every hero can do so) causing the matchup to still come down to the difference in capacity of kits —> no “playing around teammates” isn’t individual impact.
because it IS wrong.
if your value/impact intended from an action can be completely nullified/cancelled by an ally because it’s gatekept by that ally’s inputs regardless of how perfect your inputs have been, then clearly individually your impact is little because your inputs literally didn’t matter much.
like let me pose a question to demonstrate my point:
according to your paradigm, are you going to claim that someone betting on a football team in a tournament, whose done research on which team to make a bet on and in no way that they participating nor sabotaging the tournament, has high individual impact over which team wins the game or how much they win by? even if they do this “infinitely” amount of times?
it wouldn’t because
the above points already debunked how you can’t use winrate as measure of individual impact and showed how your model is incorrect.
but the main thing I want to point out here to this quote is that I have added to the convo by disputing your very flawed definition of individual impact.
Just because it’s disputing something more core and not something you wanted a dispute about doesn’t mean it’s irrelevant or out of context.
I made that remark not as a counterargument but mere correction and a call out on glorifying your flawed measure/test by calling it a “stats model”.
why do I need to show professionalism to people when I know
?
So you think I should consider a variable that can’t affect anything? That is illogical and flawed. Well done for demonstrating your point.
WR goes up with rank 47-55% (even more at the extremes) and it’s linear.
Games to infinity was addressed when I first said it. You said there is a disconnect in skill in 2v1s and it’s relative to that. An issue with mercy could be how many games you need to play so that SR or rank reflects your individual impact.
Just go for insults to prove ya point. great job.
Feel free to try again.
I think you should acknowledge where the variable of the quality of the user’s inputs does not matter much for the process/function in question instead of trying to sugarcoat with truck loads of sugar to claim that variable is the heroes’ “high individual impact” when it factually isn’t.
You’re doing that in regards to mercy and you’re doing that in regards to your “zen can just play around teammates” example.
I’ve explained in full detail how for both of them, the quality of the user’s inputs pales in comparison to the inputs of others because of how the kit design.
the wording of the first line is really unclear js, so don’t act like I’m trying to strawman or put words in your mouth in trying to address it esp when the rest of that section kinda does ride on that line:
assuming that you mean “you can rank up even with 47-55% WR”, no it’s not showing your point at all.
i.e. if you’re playing well and better than your opponents on a hero with high individual impact consistently (state of unconverged SR/MMR) then your chance winning (regardless of whether we’re just talking about a 2v1 or an overall match) should be significantly larger than a 50-50 coin toss probability. and if playing significantly worse, it should be much less.
if it is so close to 50-50 chance, then clearly one’s quality of inputs, no matter how much higher than their opponents they may be, aren’t mattering.
now to emphasise again in case you missed the parenthesised mention, this above bit is about the case where you’re not at a converged SR/MMR state i.e. not “infinite games” have past state.
if we’re talking about infinite games have passed, then you can’t relate WR across infinite games at all with individual impact because whether 1 player’s WR is high or low is inherently relative to skill diff (not the only factor, but it is a very dominant one).
inherently “once infinite games have passed”, your SR/MMR will have converged and you will have pretty much a 50% WR because you reached an equilibrium of where your skill is at. Like for you to even make the argument to try and use WR over infinite number of games as a way to measure a player’s skill or to even judge whether a hero has high or low impact, it basically means you have to always be playing better/worse than your opponents… which isn’t a condition that’s reasonable to assume (or forced to assume as you can’t argue/make the claim you want without the condition).
I’m sorry you don’t like facts being stated towards you?