That is a player problem and a player perception. Players seem to think “I’m playing support therefore i am weak”. That is not the case.
Keeping another player alive is great, it’s also great if you help kill the enemy trying to kill your team mate.
2 Likes
You’ve said it all. The new direction for PVP 2.0 is going against the core of OW1, that’s why all you’ve mentioned is conflicting.
Even though I wouldn’t go as far as stating that supports are unplayable on the beta ('cause it’s simply not true), there is no use in having a support role on the game if some people in the community wants everything to die fast and at the same time not give tools to support heroes to 1 V 1 an enemy properly.
The mindset of Overwatch players is shifting and it seems like they don’t want roles anymore or healing abilities which by definition is anti-Overwatch since the game was all about synergies, combos, different roles and unique abilities per hero.
With all of this data, it is clear that people in this community are divided. A big portion of players still wants a constructive 6 V 6 game and the other big porton wants a faster paced game that is more about individual gameplay and big stomps.
It’s appalling to me that the OW team still doesn’t consider making PVP 2.0 a separate game at this point. Remove supports’ healing abilities would lead OW2 to not even need roles (as they’re pretty much just irrelevant labels on the beta except for “healers” that are different from the rest of the heroes).
Supports should get reworked into heroes that support the team differently, without having healing abilities, that would fit PVP 2.0’s spirit more and would possibly get DPS player to playing them more (and fixing the queue time issues).
For players that want OW to be the same team-based multiplayer game, simply keep OW1 as it is right now, even though it’s very unlikely that they will add new maps and heroes there once OW2 is ready.
1 Like
Again, you are making this up, acting like it means “soloing” people or making solo plays, which I pointed out is not the same. Read and learn:
Which makes no sense and it is besides the point because:
- Being able to engage and disengage IS an advantage, that not everyone have
- The damage and utility of support speaks volumes : Not as good as DPS, but enough to duel.
IDK, can ANY of those heroes you mention also pump brutal amounts of heal, some even AOE ? … yeah didnt think so 
You can’t have it all dude, again, asking for a Support to have 100% equal grounds to duel and do damage is pointless, because then we dont need DPS in this game 
You can though, you are just in denial.
You think that healing your tank for 100 and doing 100 damage to a target to help get the kill is not “individual impact” but it is 100%. If you use that “rule” then tanks have even less individual impact lol.
The main issue is not that some people are in denial, is that some people dont EVER do this … and then complain about not having an impact. Its ultra hyper mega simple :
Passive pocketing your team is not working anymore, you have to multitask properly now.
Just because you dont save someone’s life 100% of the times you heal, doesnt mean you are not having an impact. Just because you as a pure and solely source of damage are not obliterating someone, doesnt mean you are not having on average more individual impact. Again, do the math.
False dichotomy fallacies are quite annoying, you should stop that because I already busted them.
Multiple factors, claiming that is 100% because of that only is dishonest and simply false.
Yeah Im going to stop you right there because you are going on the disingenuous route of acting like because healing AND damage doesnt happen at the same time, simultaneously, you are somewhat on the ballpark of “right” and no, you are not.
Again this is false.
You are grasping at straws, pretending that because healing and damage are not syncronous, multitasking doesnt exist. This is false and anyone can see it on any Support player stream ever. They do switch back and forth between healing and damage and many times it is literally SYNC:
Moira : using orbs
Bap: Shift and also shooting+healing same direction
Ana: Nade + Regular shots
Brig: Literally inspire+M1
Lucio: M1+Aura
Zen:M1+Aura
Theres no way you can turn this around buddy, you are 100% wrong and caught on this one. Thats all there is, the rest is denial 
PS: Learn what the individual impact math/claim was about because its weird that you are not getting that simple concept, and basing an entire “rebuttal” on something that is false as a premise.
I mean its like Support players dont stream or something and we could not see like they literally defend themselves and help on eliminations just as easy.
The moment you take out Passive Support players out of the equation, magically the game works perfectly. The game is just faster and people will die faster, having more teamfights per game, thats how it is. And just because it is like that, doesnt mean Supports are not having an impact lol
2 Likes
because god forbid the threat is a hypermobile hero whose inherently harder to hit due to their mobility and, of course using mobility to dodge definitely is harder to do than aiming at such a target /s
totally the creation of brig and how many people in GM+ who relied on her and other heroes with lenient aim tools definitely meant that aiming at such heroes and dealing with dive heroes without such tools is absolutely reasonable…/s
and it takes ana more time between shots (scoped and quick scoped) compared to the time between pharah rockets…
not to mention neither does every support have a instant burst self heal, nor does every support simply only have a los condition to switch targets or even to switch to dps.
because wallriding to and from melee range totally is as risky and as generally applicable/available as a 50m/s dash
if you want supports to heal bot less and dps more, how do you think they’re going to do so without being in enemy los more? esp in OW2 where tanks are more yolo aggro (and so are dps)?
except for half the supports or so, you practically can’t “help kill” the enemy that’s killing your teammate at the same time as trying to keep them alive.
i.e. for half the supports, you can only achieve a decent amount of sustain if you actively channel the main heal method:
-
bap: unless you somehow managed to always be piggybacked on your heal target, you can’t heal nade AND shoot hitscan at the same time. you can’t aim at 2 directions at once.
-
ana: similar with bap but moreso because it’s the same weapon fire. you can’t shoot 2 bullets at once nor can you look in 2 different directions at once.
-
moira: similar as bap but further with a range limitation (unless your heal target is <20m of the damage target, you will not be in range of both) AND you can’t “weave” primary or secondary in between each other at all like bap can.
and no, “spray then damage” isn’t reaching the level of sustain/hps to sustain someone as I specifically said.
not to mention even if you argue “but heal orb + succ”, her dps is laughably low anyways. -
mercy: obvs that she simply can’t shoot and beam at the same time. heck even with beam she can only do 1 beam at a time.
not to mention this is talking about a 2v1 scenario i.e. inherently already favorable. whereas in context of the team, there’s 1 opponent uncontested that could either turn that into a 2v2, which depending on which hero that 2nd opponent is, they can likely out pressure the support + teammate as the support likely would’ve used their self defence resources to help the original 2v1 making them vulnerable to the 2nd opponent to kill the support and flip it to a 1v2 for the teammate.
or alternatively, the 2nd opponent could create a 1v2 for another of your teammates and it’d likely be a net neutral with both sides losing 1.
3 Likes
A low post burner account talking about what Mercy mains can and can’t do
This is why people tell you to “git gud”. While I wouldn’t put it in such a toxic way.
Your problem is you don’t understand the context of a duel in overwatch and therefore lack game sense.
For example, Zen vs Genji. In a vacuum, where dying is the lose condition of a duel, Zen will lose vs a Genji when match with equal skill most of the time. Does that mean Zen is weak vs Genji… nope he’s still very strong.
Now in the context of a 5v5 on a map. Zen can play around his team and the map to create situations where he can not only get value but if Genji chooses to duel him Zen will be at an advantage and be more likely to win.
This is true on all supports.
Lastly, the thing that shows your lack of understanding of what a duel really is, is this.
If someone duels mercy and she escapes… mercy wins the duel. If mercy is carrying a game by pocketing or w/e the win condition for the dps is to kill mercy. Mercy’s win condition is just surviving and she is extremly good at this.
Your problem is you think supports should be able to engage and win duels by getting kills. That isn’t how overwatch works and if you want to apply this basic thinking to balance you’ll never be accurate or even understand the game.
Btw, I don’t agree with people that just say support is fine “git gud”. There are issues my issue is you’re straw-manning their point and arguing the point well out of the context of the game.
1 Like
You can alternate between primary fire and healing pretty quickly, it’s not difficult. I don’t see the problem here.
If a team mate is making a play/fighting an enemy they should be within the same vicinity. It really isn’t difficult to juggle healing and damage, especially if you hit a good nade.
Sending in a dmg orb and healing your team mate is very effective. You don’t need to deal tons of damage, you just need to swing the fight in your favor. You make it seem like just because it’s not a lot of damage it’s insignificant. That’s got the same energy as saying ‘GG’ after losing the first team fight.
A good mercy knows when alternate between blue beam and yellow beam and it can be really effective if done well.
Helping by dealing damage and healing does not mean it has to be done concurrently at exactly the same time.
It’s actually 5 v 5. Anyone could join that 1 v 1. That’s the nature of the game.
Or dive is able to overcome peel and self peel. Just because dive is strong does not mean peel and self peel are weak. CC was largely removed, peel wasn’t. As a reaper/Cree/Hanzo I can still for my Ana against winston/doom. You dont’ need CC to peel. You need to be a better player.
Skill expression of supports mainly consists of:
- staying alive to provide more sustain to your team. If you are good at staying alive, your team has way greater chance of winning the teamfight
- timing of their abilities (Speedboost, Resurrection, Lamp, boops from Brig and Lucio to save teammates, discording right target)
- timing of their ultimates and proper judgement of target or position (you need to know if you can defend against this Visor, Blade without Transcendence, you need to know, if saving criticaly wounded tank with Trans is worth it, you need to know if using Nano to save someone is worth it, or you should combine with other offensive ultimate etc, you need to know where to put Amp Matrix to make the most of it)
- landing crucial abilities (Ana cooldowns, Lamp, Whipshot (to do damage and trigger Inspire more often), boops to score environmental kills)
- doing damage to secure kills (Ana, Bap, Zen can kill on their own, Lucio, and Brig and Moira are great at finishing low health targets. Moira can also fairly well dueling people in 1vs1, but it’s hard for her to 100%-0 someone before they escape)
Most of it require your team to do something, but it is individual impact, playmaking. Your performance is very impactful on the outcome of the match. I think I can fairly accuretly tell the difference between Gold and Masters supports, and it consists of being better at above things, often way better). It won’t change in OW2
2 Likes
except that in no way refutes the points I have made against your argument before which literally weren’t about the support’s individual impact. literally various arguments you used before were literally about leaning on someone else which is still contrary to what you’ve defined as “individual impact in OW2”.
like do I have to spell it out for you further?
e.g. you having to escape a portion of supports (as that’s your only method to deal with them viably on those supports) leaving it up to the other 4 teammates to handle it is more of a detriment because your individual contribution to dealing with the threat is still 0 despite everyone’s individual contributions supposedly mattering more —> not having more individual impact contrary to game direction simply due to kit designs for those supports
see above
ah yes interesting. less capable of damaging AND lesser utility yet apparently being inherently disadvantaged in equal skill matchup thus demanding assistance on teammates to help, i.e. having higher team reliance, apparently isn’t contrary to direction of OW2 emphasising individual contribution and impact… /s
like you don’t see how the one that’s inherently disadvantaged in a equal skill matchup isn’t going to have less individual impact from that lower potential which’d end up being more detrimental in a game where supposedly there’s less teammates to rely on emphasising individual impact?
they instead can OHKO or 2HKO which is faster than any heal in OW1 let alone nerfed sustain in OW2 
being more capable of dueling dps != dealing as much damage over time as dps.
having more damage uptime != dealing as much damage over time as dps.
nor do either of the left mean that supports are doing as much burst as dps either.
e.g. if mercy’s pistol was usable in parallel to beaming and had faster projectile speed, would she do more damage than most dps? no.
would she burst more than most dps? no.
if mercy further had a radial knockback ability that damages like 30 or so like to use in duels around her, would the answers to the above questions change? no.
heck even if you slap on like a 30 self heal on the knockback ability it still wouldn’t change those answers.
not really no, that’s not what I’m saying.
if you 100% needed the tank’s help to get the kill that you OTHERWISE couldn’t POSSIBLY have done so, then yes it wouldn’t be individual impact.
if in that situation the tank would’ve died without your help then it is individual impact.
of if the tank couldn’t have possibly gotten the kill without your help then it is individual impact.
however what I’m talking about in the quoted bit you replied to was in regards to what I explain earlier:
putting in an inherently disadvantaged in a equal skill matchup for a whole role (supports vs anthing threatening them) is going to make the role have less individual impact from that lower potential which’d end up being more detrimental in a game where supposedly there’s less teammates to rely on emphasising individual impact.
to dumb it down for you:
if support inherently disadvantaged at defending themselves against dps
—> in equal skill matchup supports straight up need ally help or they die
—> that team reliance a whole lot more detrimental with less teammates means if you don’t help you throw harder than now in OW1
—> not only does support have less individual impact as they inherently can’t do much about inherent kit design and/or balance issue that’s built-in in the first place, but also goes against point of OW2.
meanwhile half the current support designs that have been kept thus far can’t practically multi-task sufficiently…
yet you don’t want them to actually be able to get kills reasonably either to compensate how you don’t want them to save as many lives as they do now… hence the entire topic: what exactly do you want support’s individual impact and plays to be?
I mean as “freshness” of sojourn + new non-support kits wane as time goes on, the less ground you have to hide behind that reason for elongating support queue times
dude even if you hold both clicks for the “weaving of” shots between primary and nade, you’re not going to flick accurately enough and consistently enough to actually land the shots when angle to heal target is different to damage target (esp since nade is arced which will involve elevation depending on range). that’s what I was referring to there.
uuh no, I’ve always prefaced the argument in terms of sufficient levels of sustain/hps to sustain the ally.
I’ve already went through all of this, so you can re-read the previous reply for the explanation of how you’re wrong, and I’ll cover the bits that wasn’t covered before:
- bap: see previous
- ana: often 1 nade isn’t enough, and you’ll have to follow up with heal shots before you can switch to damage assuming no-one else needs healing in which case no damage mode for you and you keep basically actively channeling heal cutting away dps uptime <—problem being pointed at here
- moira orb situational because heal targets move around more rather than stay in 1 area + less likely to follow linear path of orb —> will need to primary to heal not to mention if dire, you will need to combine heal orb + primary anyways. not to mention again, range limitations
- brig: see previously
add on mercy, that’s like 5/7 supports whereby dps uptime is cutted by heal uptime due to mutual exclusive uptime designs.
except you can equally say the contrapositive in favour of genji as well with respect to how his team engages to generate an advantageous situation for genji to jump in on for a kill or for a 1v1. more likely as well when you further consider how tanks are made to be more yolo aggro.
not really, because then it’s another teammate’s problem to deal with whom may or may not preoccupied by another problem/enemy.
when you change the game direction to expect more emphasis on the individual’s contributions, impact and plays, enforced team reliance from balance or kit design deficiency becomes more of a detriment and a problem than before, that should be obvious.
1 Like
They did the same with tanks in OW1. Nerfs barrier tanks, whines for barriers
1 Like
A few things here I liked to point out. For starters Tracer is more or less the only “Hyper mobile” hero that actually has a kit made to dodge attacks. She also has 150 hp and a wide spread sustain fire primary, Forcing her to be in near point blank range to get consistent picks. Wich means she is a valid target for a nade thrown at your feet.
Genji might be able to get away with his dash, or over a projectile with double jump. but over overall moves in pretty predictable arcs/lines. And has a hit box that is as wide as a soldier. (If not slightly slouched over)
Hate to break it to you, people don’t play brig for her lenient 58.31 dps. They play her because she has layered healing mechanics, can give 2 seconds of mercy heal from a rather long and safe distance away. while being able to provide that to multiple targets at the same time, even through barriers. making her very good at supporting mobile dive heroes.
THAT at the same time can knock back dive tanks out of their dives, put rien/doom fist/ and of other brigs into a knock down state. Making them into a free focus fire target (she can still do this by shield bashing an incoming charge/punch) While she herself not losing out on the passive healing or any heals she set up prior. With the stun disrupting a lot of ults, abilities like d.va’s DM and missiles and more.
She basically is a Swedish army knife for all the tools she has to counteract rather meta targets.
Like she can be a threat to the likes of tracer/genji, Be it that these days they rarely would engage her attack range, unless tracer had ult or genji knew the stun was on cooldown and couldn’t interupt his deflect. That and genji for that reason hasn’t seen to much play up in the higher tiers, more or less for that reason. As he can’t touch the ground around her in fear of the bash.
(It’s like theirs more to supports then just their damage, and healing output)
Pharah is also shooting projectiles while bobbing up and down in a attempt to dodge incoming fire. It’s not exactly easy to land direct shots in the heat of the fire fire fight. And do to the travel time and rate of fire, it’s not that hard for ana jump take a bit of splash quick scope a hitscan shot and Repeat. at least that’s my normal mid/to long range procedure with Pharah’s ones that get close range tends to be a cr*p shoot as neither of us really want to be at that range. And her wide hitbox tends to make her an easy sleep dart target at that range. While the short travel distance made it so that both of us could easy land projectiles, but the amount of movement required to dodge such makes it hard to keep consistent aim on each other.
(Once got into a duel with a pharah in one of the buildings on legiang. And we came to a an agreement not to do that again, as that went on for about thirty seconds of pot shots and two mega health pack refills. And like it only stopped because a d.va got knocked into the upper floor by a doom fist giving us both rooms to just leave.)
I mean lucio gets a good chunk of speed of not only the wall ride/but the speed boost/and more while jumping off the wall. A good lucio can basically dance between the two sides of a given point, let alone a chunk of the map with good LOS breaks allowing him to get in and out of fights.
Also keep in mind genji dash only last .3 seconds so he is only moving 15 meters overall.
It’s more so that supports can move back and forth, taking the advantages they want(Can) and dipping back behind their team to heal their team and themselves.
Meaning they don’t “have to be in los” all the time, and can pick and choose their fights. Were as DPS don’t have that pleasure in many cases.
Which it has always been the case were an proactive support, wins more games then one that primarily just waits to heal things. It’s just now that people are more frequently confronted with those situations, where they should if not need to be getting damage done.
You can, the best way to play bapt is to switch up between healing and shooting bettwen every other shoot. With the two main tempo’s being shoot, heal, shoot, heal ~ or shoot, shoot, heal, shoot shoot, heal. while leaning on the mortality field and AOE cooldown to allow to get away with such.
Also keep in mind a single direct hit of bapts heal nade, is enough to break most DPS kill comob’s. as such it’s better to shoot at the target at least once before healing again.
As killing the target will end the fight sooner then heal botting.
That is what nade is their for, you do almost third of a squishies HP worth of damage. Prevent healing, and allow you to do 1.5 times the healing. Allowing two shots to become three healing wise. Were as sleep gives you a chance at a full heal reset + a three shot.
Mercy can also flick on the damage beam to say boost a fire strike/nade/soldier rocket/ Pharah rocket/ then go back to healing in between. Like in most cases boosting one of those breaks the damage threshold. Like normally rien takes three shots to kill a squishy, where as with a single damage boost swing/firestrike it becomes a two shot.
Like healing usually is only strong enough to break the damage threshold once, unless of curse the enemy is bad at the game.
Agreed.
Funny things is, you can apply this exact same argument to the tank role as well.
Maybe it’ll also lead to the same “solution”, aka delete 2nd support lol
except that it is because without that support players impact the teammate wouldn’t be able to confirm the kill in the first place. The goal for OW2 is to make the impact of a support so that their teammates are more deadly with them.
Curious. Then would you be ok if they removed the tech entirely if it’s meaningless? My guess would be no.
1 Like
I do <.<
Right now we can but I don’t know how long that will last once people stop treating it like QP TDM. Things are going to change and shift, especially once SR is involved.
No one, none of the complainers pass the test when asked 2 things:
- What do you want then? They either just want DPS to suffer and get nerfed, or ask for them to do just the same damage as a DPS.
- If they swapped passives with DPS, would you be fine with it? Of course not. They are just acting like Support passive is not great and DPS passive is “meh”.
The whole understanding of individual impact increased in OW2 is just weird. Like literally a hardcore misunderstanding of how mathematically, with less members in the team, your individual impact matters more.
Impossible to teach the blind to see, specially when they cant even see that there are MANY Supports that are doing fine in OW2 so its clearly a player issue, at least 75%.
2 Likes
Some people might have good points, some opinions might be valid, but I fear, knowing people, that many of them are unwilling to recognize their own position and understanding in the matter as being… questionable, on the broader scale. I believe, again, some people are valid, but others are making excuses for themselves.
1 Like
I mean absolutely. I said this multiple times:
Those Supports who’s passive overlaps (Mercy/Zen) are having a hard time. Specially Zen, because Zero mobility.
That is true. However that can be fixed by Devs … the rest? Dont Play Passive, you will do fine.
I like Zephrin. I think they talk about balance ideas in good faith. We just kinda see things differently 