Since there’s SOOO many reasons we can’t go back to 6V6 apparently, such as there not being enough Tank players, the game can’t handle 6V6 anymore because of bad optimisation, stop whining old man and except the game as it is now, you know, a lot of reasons, what’s an actual, definitive, foolproof devproof way to fix this game?
Tanks don’t want to be the punching bag, they don’t want to be forced to deal with Bio Nade, Discord, having their attacks cleansed, having their teammates drag them around, boops, stuns, slows, hinders, traps and ESPECIALLY counters, more do they want to be forced to counter their counters, losing all ultimate progress only to get countered again, AND be blamed by their 1-7 Widowmaker for not counter-swapping (the Widow hasn’t even looked at the hero select menu for 3 mins), and it’s also your fault for not diving the enemy Supports, AND also not giving your teammates protection, but you also can’t expect to 1V5 without taking cover 80% of the time (but your team expects you to make cover for them 110% of the time).
And you also cannot make Tanks nigh invincible with 2K health, 100% headshot resistance, cleanses and invincibilities and flight and a portable fortress. You have to make sure that the enemy team actually enjoys shooting the Tank and that the Supports don’t mind healing them, without having to churn through thousands of health or playing catchup to the flying juggernaut who’s already halfway across the continent by now.
Go on, someone, anyone tell me how to make the Tanks feel killable without feeling like punching bags.
Balance won’t fix anything. It might make things less apparent if done correctly, but won’t fix the issues. You cut a leg off, you can train your remaining leg to be as bulky and strong as you want, but you’re still missing one leg, an extremely important limb for your foundation.
I’m not a great competitive expert, but I’m quite convinced that the developers’ solution concerns the passives and the shape of the maps.
undoubtedly passives are the most incisive method to create greater distinctions between the three classes, much more than ow1 with its “supports heal, tanks are bigger”. it is quite clear that the passives granted to tanks (the percentage of armor effectiveness, the effectiveness of the headshot, the mitigation of the ultimate load) are exactly what “”“solves”“” the punching bag problem, while still leaving a large margin of responsibility to the gameplay strategy. therefore I think that the biggest doubt remains in countering rather than in the effectiveness of the tanks themselves.
and… well actually I don’t think there is an easy solution through balancing: d.va alone will always be killed by zarya in an easy way, orisa will always counter the doomfist in the most effective way, mauga will always be incredibly frustrating for winston, etc. . however, countering has always been in the identity of the game, as Symmetra will always be killed easily by a Pharah, or a Moira will almost always be able to intercept the enemy Mercy effectively. the lone tank rarely finds himself in a different logic, unless it is the collaboration between the three roles until the “ultimate moment” arrives in which all the combos reverse the situation.
I would like to launch a hypothesis: the developers balance the types of tanks mainly based on the maps. it’s no coincidence that since we’ve been in ow2 we’ve had new types of maps that completely change the type of needs on the battlefield, or how some maps in ow1 (junkertown, route 66, gibraltar) have changed despite being considered super balanced in ow1. the only explanation I have given myself is that they are trying to “force” more the situations in which a type of tank is better in a certain type of map. and it is not a wrong reasoning to reinforce the effectiveness of the tanks precisely through a specific geography of the map. roadhog for example will always remain a pretty good choice at ilios well. d.va will still be a good choice for maps with as much verticality as gibraltar despite an enemy zarya. Reinhardt will always have a great way to build up ultimate charge in the tight spaces of Lijiang Tower. they are just examples, obviously, but generally I think that it is precisely this huge experimentation through the maps and the new gamemodes (push, flashpoints, clash) that makes the difference in which tanks are better for certain situations, not just the passive ones.
what would I change? definitely some another rules for support and dps, I think with tanks we have reached a good point of how their role can survive.
The game was balanced for competitive matching where they made money. The game was never balanced for typical players. The solution is balancing the game for typical players because there is no competitive any longer. The second solution is moving anybody with zim to PC queue and leaving the rest of us alone. 5v5 still feels trash, and most games not QP go 2 tank 1 healer. They need to just go back to 6v6, reduce the game modes drastically, and remove zim.
OP is asking how 5v5 would be resolved without a 6v6, which for obvious reasons leads to other types of problems to deal with that have nothing to do with the current interests of 5v5.
6v6 had its problems, 5v5 has other problems. different problems, ok?
Tanks are always going to be the punching bag. Its literally the role description. Thats why they have 600+ hp and defensive abilities.
Tanks are also supposed to be countered by something in the other roles. Some tanks can block Nade, some cant. Some tanks are weak against beams, some arent. Some are barely affected by slows, some are. List goes on.
The issue is that tanks were not meant to be enforced to solo tank.
I think the punching bag problem is increased exponentially because of 5V5. Since there’s one giant target with 800 health, 50% knockback resistance and 25% headshot immunity, everyone wants to kill them first to get the big meat shield out of the way, and the best way to do this is to switch to all of their counters.
6V6 would fix this by weakening Tanks and splitting the power and therefore focus, so they won’t be countered by everyone and furthermore, having 2 Tanks would allow like-minded players to synergise and help each other out with their own counters. Obviously there’s also a chance this doesn’t always happen, that’s not an argument against this statement.
I know 6V6 is the best solution, but I’m challenging people to make 5V5 work. So far, it’s looking rather bleak.
Get your head out of your butt. Tanks are treated like punching bags and these band-aid solutions such as adding stupid passives like headshot immunity, as well as reworking half the characters in the game just isn’t working. Tank player numbers are still declining and therefore queue times for the other roles are getting worse in ranks higher than dirt muncher, where I presume you reside.
6V6 DID work, well in fact for 3 years. GOATS became a problem because of dev incompetency, which made it last a year and Double-Shield was again, dev incompetency, hit-scans being overbuffed and erm, what else? OH RIGHT, THE GAME WASN’T BEING UPDATED FOR 2.5 YEARS BECAUSE THE DEVS WERE ALL GONE WORKING ON A SEQUEL!
5V5 has had nothing but devs working tirelessly on it and they’re still adding random numbers like all of these Tank passives and universally changing armour, just to make 5V5 barely work.
If 6V6 had this much maintenance, we wouldn’t have had Double-Shield for more than a month at best.
95% of players at least if not more don’t come to the forums
Therefore 95% of tanks are playing and enjoying while not complaining.
They are out there gaming while a small percent of players sit in here and cry.
Not all forum users do but there’s a lot of it.
Generally speaking the typical forum complainers will never be happy. There’s a reason devs avoid these forums…it’s the bottom 1% of their playerbase that will never be happy.
They cater to the 99% rightfully so
As far as your tank question goes.
Like it or hate it it’s up to you, no one cares what you or me thinks. Play or don’t play
for quick play, why doesnt someone who knows how to set up arcade games just make a 6 v 6 mode…that way people can play the 6 v 6 all they want.
as far as ranked…you COULD do it in arcade, but it would have to be a private ladder rather than an official OW game…matches would have have to be tracked and recorded manually.
also, im surprised that people dont do OW tournaments…like have weekend matches…teams could sign up, and games could be played on weekends, maybe once or twice a month and it could be like a basketball bracket system…
would take a lot of work, but ive seen it done in other games and it’s quite fun…
Tank: Goes behind cover to not get turned into a news article.
DPS: “Why aren’t you stunning enemies so I can kill them? I can’t hit moving targets!”
Supports: “Why aren’t you protecting me with every ability? I refuse to look for cover!”
Tank: Peaks out for one second and dies horribly.
DPS: “Tank, why did you run in and die? Stop inting!”
Support: “You’re too far forward, I refuse to heal someone who is trying to take space!”
That is a thing though, people have done 6V6 in the Workshop, and even rebalanced heroes to prior to some of the recent, stupid changes.
But Workshop is not nearly as popular as Quick Play. Obviously we’re advocating for a proper, QP experience.
Blizzard is doing all of these Quick Play Hacked things. The ones they’ve tried are outlandish and almost certain to not work, so why haven’t they actually, properly, genuinely tested 6V6 for even just a weekend?
And that Comp idea where it’s all tracked by hand, how would that even work? It simply wouldn’t, especially if it’s all unmoderated by the community.