So what was the point of Hog's rework?

[Nerva666-1934]

@KnightRaime-1346

I disagree as not all hard counters are bad. See the Classic Winston vs Reaper match up as an example as a good one. Far as the rest of your statement goes regardless of how strong or weak a match up is metas will be formed based on value of a hero which often includes synergy.

You are welcome to your opinion. but what do you exactly mean by the classic Winston vs Reaper? honestly, reaper needs some slight adjustments himself, but what exactly are you referring to? i am not against soft counters, but very much against more hard counters, and as to double down on my stance against hard counters we really need to be weary of roles that are counter to an entire role. so many say oh reaper is a countertank. there should never be a counter to an entire role.

@KnightRaime-1346

Top level play does not include as much swapping unlike regular play. This is because those players are strong enough execution level wise that swapping isn’t going to gain them a big enough advantage to win in most cases. At best a swap is done to try and break a choke to make one strong push before a match is over. Not as an immediate response usually. And some people are right, I have seen him be a more hard counter to tanks in some ranks. we need to make sure to cautiously prevent that in ranks, not just focus on high ranks.

yes, higher ranks is more consistent. the higher ranks the hard counters are more like soft counters to them. but we can not base the game where the minimum is. The goal is to make a proper balance for the bulk, and then find out what is too much for the top and adjust accordingly. I would actually say swaps higher are more of at the start, and then quickly swapped. But I have seen people just get stuck vs better players in all ranks and just swap to get more value for the team.

[KnightRaime-1346]

@Nerva666-1934

but what do you exactly mean by the classic Winston vs Reaper?

Winston vs Reaper is one of the examples that gets used in discussions about hard versus soft counters. How likely you are to win a match up isn’t the only factor in determining hard vs soft counters. It has a lot more to do with how the kits impact each other as well as potential comps.

Reaper is considered a Hard counter to Winston because he plays directly against Winston’s strengths, like diving. However in this match up Winston isn’t helpless. He can jump to different ground reducing Reaper’s damage. He can also poke reaper with his alt fire before hopping in to try and force an early disengage. He can also blow his ultimate to get more HP to prolong the fight for a narrow kill. etc.

In comparison Genji versus Zarya is another example of a hard counter. In that Zarya negates most of his damage and Genji cannot deflect her primary fire. This kind of hard counter is what the devs want to avoid. Simply put Hard counters do not equal unhealthy gameplay. It only becomes unhealthy if the match up actively removes the other person’s ability to do things/fight back.

The devs have cited Tracer vs Cassidy as a hard counter they wanted to avoid early on with news of OW2. Though I don’t understand why since Cassidy had flash removed by then. So he was no longer a hard counter to Tracer. Yeah he can blow her up with a body shot and magnetic nade, but we might as well consider every hero who can blow another up quickly a counter to Tracer at that point.

@Nerva666-1934

so many say oh reaper is a countertank. there should never be a counter to an entire role.

That is a failing on those people for misunderstanding. Reaper being a tank buster doesn’t make him a hard counter to tanks. There are tanks he performs worse against than others. Reaper instead is more of a solution to fight against dive comps rather than just a catch all to a pesky tank hurting your team.

@Nerva666-1934

the higher ranks the hard counters are more like soft counters to them.

That is not how counters work. Soft counters are much simpler to determine over hard counters because what they do doesn’t really change a fight outcome. It simply means they have an advantage in the fight. A good example of this is Kiriko vs Ana. Both have tools that can negate a play from the other person.

But it doesn’t remove their ability to make more plays or to continue to do their job. If Kiriko cleanses sleep Ana can still heal others or use Anti. Just as if Ana uses Anti and Kiriko uses Cleanse she can still dps people or use healing ofuda to support.

Probably a better way to word it is simply you generally see soft counters in discussions about abilities. Hard counters are more discussed when it comes to actual match ups. And that there’s a difference between good and bad Hard counters. OW might bastardize these terms a bit to suit how it plays but the philosophies hold up when you go look at other games that these terms come from.

@Nerva666-1934

I would actually say swaps higher are more of at the start, and then quickly swapped

Swapping is negligeable for newer/lower skill brackets because the players there wouldn’t be able to consistently benefit from doing so. It’s also almost not a thing outside Tank play in higher Elo due to player skill being much more of a factor.

It’s always been most beneficial for middle of the road players who have proper aim skill and decent game knowledge. Because at that point it’s far more about having good game sense then being a cracked player.

[GreyGhost-32519]

Whole thing just seems like a buff to reaper to me. He seems to do much better against the new 30% DR, basically stopping hog getting any healing if he is anywhere close. I though reaper/hog was fairly even before in my games, but having more trouble with him with the rework.

And if reaper is better against him you can bet torb will be too and probably hanzo.

[Rally-11718]

For better context explaination and understanding your point of view.
His uptime has increase, meaning he can engage for longer holds.
He is a poke tank in the sense how sigma plays only instead of repelling enemies he drags them in to a unfavorable area.
Old Hog had one job hook and eliminate if he missed he was essentially useless during the time you practicly had to wait for your hook to re-engage.
The removal of his secondary fire meant that his effective range has been solidifed as a mid-close range tank instead of the close-mid-long range poke.
The increament of his new gun form allows him to be more threatful the closer you are but not in a garanteed death.
His new vape allows him to hold a area and sustain dmg instead of negating the total dmg, this allows his supports to keep him alive+grant more ult charge faster.
His pen is a great tool for trapping and discouraging a rush attempt as it slows down the targets you can combo it with hook for a garanteed kill but is still countarable by destroying the trap.

[Nerva666-1934]

@KnightRaime-1346

That is not how counters work. Soft counters are much simpler to determine over hard counters because what they do doesn’t really change a fight outcome. It simply means they have an advantage in the fight. A good example of this is Kiriko vs Ana. Both have tools that can negate a play from the other person.

i think this is a misunderstanding of what I mean. due to skill differences between tank vs DPS, what is more referred to as a hard counter can be minimized by the person’s skill and kit usage. making hard counters more negligible. I have had insane winston shield dancing me before and good winstons are impressive. for instance a lower rank mcree with less hit percentage is less of a counter to tracer than higher ranks where they more often would hit their headshot on her.