Not really, if anything it’d probably be fun if she was given a much more active kit alongside having to charge up and line up shots - provided it has the appropriate downside. It can be done, take Risk of Rain 2’s Railgunner for example. Imagine if Widowmaker could do more with her hook than just get to high ground like in the cinematics?
Why are we comparing a PVE game where you get crazy upgrades to intentionally become overpowered to a PVP game where you fight as your base character against other characters.
Do you think the RoR2 railgunner would be fun in Overwatch with their base kit? Do you think they’d be able to stand up to the Overwatch heroes without no upgrades or anything? Because that’s the question you need to ask when thinking about widow.
Just saying “make her midranged and give her SOME appropriate downsides with SOME mystery kit” isn’t really a good argument. You see that they can’t even make Symmetra correctly, but you feel comfortable with just saying they should give widow some random ability to make her more active? She’s already a character that works, so why break what’s not broken?
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Because they don’t start with those upgrades. Risk of Rain 2 starting kits are actually pretty similar in balance to Overwatch’s. You get a primary fire, a secondary fire, and 2 abilities. Do you really think a sniper with a boop ability and an ability that plays around her primary fire is OP? Because thats Ashe.
Probably, assuming her health and damage appropriately fit - like her headshots are dealing the overwatch 250-300 hp and shes an ~200 hp hero.
I’m being purposely vague because unlike you, I’m not acting like im a balancing expert.
They do belong in the game and they have various counter picks such as genji, Sojourn, tracer, D.va, Wrecking ball, and Winston. People are only starting to realize them more because they don’t have two tank and two barriers to hide behind. OW2 will reward you much more for playing around cover and positioning something that OW1 failed to do near the end of it’s life span.
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I’m not acting like a balancing expert, I’m acting like I want to defend my position. Why would me saying “here’s what I think, here’s why I think it would and wouldn’t work” mean I’m acting like I’m some expert? Why is it better to be vague when you can say what you mean?
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You don’t even have to be a better player.
You just have to be around the same skill level as the enemy sniper.
If you are equally good at snipers and hitscans or Hanzo, Genji, Ball, etc, you will be a threat to them just like they are a threat to you.
The main issue is what you said here…
People that are not good with the more mechanically intensive heroes want to win duels against them when they play heroes like Sym, junkrat, Mercy, Moira, etc.
When that kind of thing is more of a “them” issue than the issue of a hero’s power level.
Just like my previous Reaper example.
If I’m playing Reaper against an enemy pharah that is destroying my team and I refuse to switch and we lose. Why would that be the Pharah’s fault or why would I call the Pharah overpowered.
If it’s my lack of skill and not being able to play any other hero in order for me to switch and counter what the enemy is doing.
Players like this just want an easy “I win button” when they say they want to be able to counter heroes.
Never any solutions that equal matching the enemies skill.
They want to continue playing their niche close range heroes and want the whole game to cater to this play style which means nerfing every hero that is a threat to their playstyle.
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Snipers like widow are easy to take care of, as long as you actually try. People tend to not pay any attention to a widow in the very back, but a reaper or a sombra can easily go kill her.
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Reaper? wtf how does reaper counter widow plzs explain
I mean, he’s certainly got his own problems (loud af, slow af, etc.) but as long as he doesn’t Shadow Step right in her face, he can get all in her face
Shadow Stepping behind her or to a nearby path that leads to her perch (map dependent of course, definitely easier on the newer maps from the OW2 beta) gets him close and able to sneak up on her and put a shotgun to her (laughably) large head hit box.
are we just ignoring grapple
Are we ignoring that “sneak up” part? And the fact her head box is big making a single shotgun kill her? Are we also ignoring how maps have only a few actual sniper angles?
Did you know that if you couch while walking, you silence your loud footsteps? That helps on a flank. Did you know that you can circumvent Shadow Step’s loud cue by using map knowledge to get to the flank provided (on most maps) instead of only Shadow Stepping in her field of view (assuming she doesn’t kill you for that dumb decision).
Her grapple is also a 1.33sec cast time followed by a 1.33sec travel time that keeps her moving in an incredibly easy line of travel. All while still having a 12 second cooldown that only starts once the grapple is broken (either early by her choice or CC- Hamster, Sombra and Doomfist can interrupt it for instance- sacrificing distance, or at grapple connection). Effectively a 14 second cooldown that moves her slower than Genji while doing nothing for her hitbox other than scrunching it so a shotgun still ends up being effective against her. All while still giving up her prime angle, preventing her from doing anything she wants to do.
Sounds an awful a lot like countering her
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I noticed this more in the second beta than the first (perhaps because the prevalence of JQ meant snipers were less opposed by other tanks with vertical mobility or a barrier), but a lot of my games turned into sniper massacres and it was OPPRESSIVE. I can’t say we had much fun those games, on defense it was much quieter and easier than it should be, on offense it was a nightmarish slog. The sniper probably had a ton of fun, and that’s about it. Widow seems to be the worst of the lot btw.
Imagine a game where you ask ten people to queue up so that one of them can have a good time.
I’m sorry, but in no world is reaper a widow counter. There are several widow counters, yes, but as soon as reaper enters widow’s line of sight even a mediocre player can headshot him. also he is like the least stealthy overwatch character so that doesn’t help either
There was no logic reason for any change besides people whining about their “fun”. At this point a change to ruin the game for those that were ok with all the previously ill decisions to remove things.
You’re absolutely right. Which is why the very first post in this thread I say this. But at this point I’m going to advertise for OW to ruin itself in a desperate attempt for them to realize this after going to far in the opposite direction. Also why I always hated all the whiners getting things removed from this game. But at this point if you can’t beat them , join them.
No one cares about skill. This is a “fun” argument, and if all the whiners can get my fun removed, I say let’s remove someone’s fun for my sake for once.
While Reaper is certainly not the first choice I would pick to deal with Widow, he has the tools to flank. Also are we ignoring that there are ways on most maps to minimize his audio cues? Once you’re behind enemy lines, crouching will silence your steps. Shadow Stepping along the side flank you want to use will minimize the audio of him using the skill. He’s ironically no louder than Tracer, Genji or Sombra. He just has a slower creepy style to flanking as opposed to fast run’n’gun
If people stopped running into the open and then trying to Shadow Step in her face, they’d realize the map isn’t a straight corridor with no other way to move.
And if a flanker is running in front of her, that’s not flanking. That’s barreling down with no strategy. Flankers have the mobility tools to move from cover to cover quickly without putting themselves at risk while they circle around behind the enemy.
Running directly at the enemy and dashing to the side isn’t flanking in the slightest. It’s front lining if anything
They’re trying to compensate with map design, the new maps (and even updated old ones) offer much more covers in general.
Widow has been annoying in OW too in higher ranks, even with two tanks sometimes you have to hide constantly, pretty unfun experience.
I play dva and only have trouble with widow when
- She is getting peel from her team. But you can counter team work with team work.
- She is able to get kills from sub optimal positions.
- She is so far back that I have to find a way to get to her without dying first. This one is dependent on the map and there is usually a route I can take to provide cover. But if said route is being contested then I am low on options.
But if I catch a lone widow off gaurd then she will die so easily because she is squishy and scoped in (basically standing still).
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It’s a great idea in concept, but in execution a especially with how they push for the game to be competitive as opposed to casual, it just doesn’t work. Many characters balance is setback by their design.
Take Widowmaker for instance. If they wanted to nerf her one shot, they could not do so without destroying the hero because her one shot is all she has. People are always suggesting these nerfs to other parts of her kit but the truth is that it won’t stop her from clicking heads.
Now the devs are in a situation where they can’t make any changes without making the hero have a different kit all together. But at that point they are basically another hero. They did this with Orisa and Doom. I wonder who is next.
I think this game might have been better off being casual with all the wacky abilities. It’s just too hard to balance all the different components around competitive play.
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Exactly the reason that is everything wrong with OW, where a vast array of players are unable to play how they want the game to be played to appease a bunch 0.000% of whiny try hards that are incapable of overcoming obstacles in the game so convince Blizzard to remove them so they can stay competitive. If they were actually good the game wouldn’t need to be catered to them, they would just find a way to win.
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