Role Queue ruined overwatch

General Discussion
180

yet i cant get competitive games with flex. that’s what I want. not arcade so few take seriously.

no they didnt esp not as bad as it is now. I couldve swapped roles if we only had dps tanks or healers now we cant. it created this as an issue since we’re stuck with them.

i did yet it’s still taking a much longer time. sometimes I’m waiting up to 10 mins for a game as a healer or tank. dps can be up to 25

wow this is so ignorant of a response. you completely missed the point.
I already did. i can’t control others who dont. being able to swap roles helped me counter that since I could counter pick the enemy or fill in a different role the team needed more like a a hitscan for pharah or 3rd healer or another shield tank. now we’re just stuck.

clearly you dont understand the issues if you replied like tthat

false. you may like it but I don’t. it’s your OPINION not fact. maybe youre getting perfect teams every game but i can guarantee most arent

2 Likes
181

Define “creativity”. Define “toxicity”.

She was released more as a counter to “Dive”, the dominant meta at that time because the devs couldn’t figure out how else to stop it.

CC improves the CRQ experience by shortening CRQ times.

I’ll explain this to you with an analogy as you seem to like those.

You have two lines in a store.

One is served by a store employee.

They scan your items for you.

The other is for self-serve kiosks. You scan your own items.

The self-serve machines have a much shorter line.

By redirecting some of those waiting for the store employee line to self-serve kiosks, you also shorten the line being served by the store employee.

It’s a win-win.

In this analogy, self-serve kiosks = CC. Store employee line = CRQ.

As a RQ supporter, don’t you want the CRQ experience to be better?

Even if the devs really do consider that CC would somehow compromise the normal game client’s experience they should at least release it in a separate client.

Even you previously admitted you’d be fine with this.

The secondary client would have CC and QPC back in their original main screen positions. Arcade and Custom Games would share the same playerbase as the normal client.

You talked about how CC would upset players. Don’t you think that 1-3-2 has far more potential to upset players when you consider how it entirely removes the main and off-tank synergistic duos, a playstyle that many enjoy?

1 Like
182

Role Queue made things better. No more 5 DPS players not switching to anything else because “iTs JuSt QUiCk pLaY”

183

Creativity = having incredibly limited numbers of choices. I know you’re going to say “but 222 stops my creativity”, well, yeah, it does that to remove the team comp cases where, at high levels, would have NO choice because of the extreme synergy and power.
Toxicity = in this case, getting upset with your team mates for not picking the right hero (i.e. “Why are you picking Genji? Pick brig, our team comp REQUIRES brig because of extreme power synergy, stop throwing!”)

Brig was released for multiple reasons - dive, solo tank/healer backup, anti flanker. That does not change ANYTHING about my point (which you completely avoided).

As a RQ supporter, i dont want CRQ because it sacrifices clarity, balance and throws us straight down the line of all the things that i explained in my previous post that you conveniently ignored. Maybe in a few years, when the game is slowly dieing (like Wow) then there will be demand for the separate client you want.

Lemme answer your CC VS 132 with the understanding that I personally HATED 132, but putting my emotionless game designer hat on, its a better step forward (even if its a terrible one)

CC AND 222

  • Adding a second competitive game mode at the same “prestige” and reward level as another will cause players to either not know which one is best, or wonder why theirs is not the best.
  • Essentially 2 games to balance, including one that was already rejected by the devs for REASONS (as detailed extensively in my posts). Either one or both modes suffer because of this.

132

  • Single competitive mode, its clear what everyone has to do.
  • Single game to balance, the devs can focus on that alone.
  • Tank players would be annoyed.
  • Support players would be annoyed.
  • DPS players get faster queue times.
  • On average, more players are immediately happy.

Side note on 132 would probably shoot itself in the foot in the long term by reducing tank and healer counts even further, increasing DPS queues back up to where they were after a few months.

Did you notice how i addressed all your points and answered your questions? You do that and i’ll reply more - yes, we’re getting to this stage again.

184

If this was an issue at high levels, enforce 2-2-2 there.

At low/mid levels it’s a restriction that removes many viable combinations thus reducing choices.

Now that those same players can no longer blame a loss on their team composition, they find something else to blame someone for.

Even Geoff admitted this in the “Role Queue Update”.

Now players are frustrated due to long queues and being unable to flex onto other roles to make up for a teammates’ inadequacies.

Already is now.

World of Warcraft Classic is a good example of how a game can be reverted back to a previous state without issues like “broken”, “unsupported” being problematic.

Runescape is another example - the Classic mode ended up being more popular.

Both are good examples of how developers make changes and updates that aren’t always good for everyone and having separate modes or clients that can satisfy more players are worth having.

Forced Role Queue is a change that fits into that category.

Your point about “Essentially 2 games to balance” meaning that “Either one or both modes suffer” is also incorrect as shown by these examples.

May cause longer queues then if they opt to queue for Damage or stop playing.

Right now many players who want to play Damage don’t queue because of the long queue times.

Reduce the queue times and those players queue for Damage again, increasing the queue times back to how it was.

Not necessarily.

Not a solution then?

CC is the superior solution in every way shape and form for the reasons explained previously.

Its upsides by far outweigh the negatives.

1 Like
185

Enforcing 222 at high levels and not low levels does not fix any of the issues i spoke about. The high synergy comps still exist at all levels.

Reducing number of issues players have reduces the chance of an event happening that causes toxicity.

I dare say there is not enough demand for a separate client for classic overwatch - “classic” versions of games generally come out when a game is running out of steam, not when its just ramping up for its sequel.

Wow classic IS broken and unsupported on balance. It just exists. Overwatch is a live product.

132 definitely a FAR better option than CC and it solves the damage queue times, but personally it has its own very different issues.

You seem to pick holes in everything, but not actually offer any valid solutions. So, given the many issues with CC that i’ve pointed out actually exist, how would you solve them? Note - LFG does not solve them.

186

On the specific point of “creativity” you must agree that by your own definition it’s reduced at lower and mid levels.

This is an indisputable negative to forced 2-2-2.

The high synergy comps don’t exist at the lower degree to the degree that they’re must-pick and thus problematic.

The team synergy they relied on simply didn’t exist.

This was also attested by Jeff Kaplan.

Lately, a lot of the hate seems to be directed at the GOATS team composition, and the hero’s that comprise it. It may seem that all anybody is playing on ladder is GOATS, but Overwatch game director Jeff Kaplan says the reality is very different.

“The reality is, south of diamond, no one is playing GOATS,” Kaplan said on a livestream with FRAN. “Or even if they’re playing Reinhardt and Zarya and Brigitte, and all the other characters that comprise GOATS, they’re not playing GOATS.”

This train of thought isn’t just limited to GOATS either. Kaplan went on to explain that picking D. Va and Winston doesn’t automatically mean we’re playing Dive, but rather it’s just the nature of the patch cycle. Players will read about changes online, see what pro players are choosing in their games, then emulate that thinking they’ve found the one true way to play. After a couple of weeks of that, the players get bored and start complaining about the comps, asking for nerfs or buffs to mix things up.

“What’s inevitably going to happen is, whether the meta changes or not, people will end up not liking the current meta,” Kaplan said. “And I already see that happening. I see people say, ‘GOATS is dead and now it’s double sniper and that’s terrible,’ or ‘Everyone’s going to just play McCree.’ What the hell do you people want?”

For those of us who are still convinced that GOATS is a problem in most of our games, Jeff has one final piece of advice to give. “If you want random heroes every match, Mystery Heroes is now available for you in the Arcade,” Kaplan said. “There is no meta.”

Not necessarily.

Toxic players will find a way to be toxic.

If one “issue” is resolved, they move onto another.

The demand for CC could be tested by having it for a month side-by-side CRQ.

What evidence is there that World of Warcraft was running out of steam prior to Classic?

To my knowledge it still had a large and active subscription base.

Yet it’s massively popular. If a game is fun people will play regardless.

WoW isn’t?

WoW is more of a live product when you consider you pay for an active monthly subscription.

It doesn’t, for the reasons I explained that you ignored.

The various implementations that I’ve suggested.

Each has their own pros and cons.

Weigh them up.

Any form of CC is better than none even with the “many issues”.

Optional Role Queue or improved LFG is another equally good alternative to CC.

How could LFG be improved?

I’d be happy share some ideas with anyone interested.

Baja also has some good ideas:

1 Like
187

That’s not a good idea. Some people will end up having to choose roles that they don’t want to play, simply because the game loads much faster for other players.

188

Ignoring a problem doesnt fix it. Those comps would still exist. Only having RQ at high ranks is also inconsistent - all players should be treated to the same rule set.

Yes, reducing the number of things that annoy toxic people gives them less reasons to be toxic.

Testing CC would not resolve any of the issues with it. “Classic” versions of games are generally unchanging snapshots of what they were. Wow classic is not a live, constantly evolving and improving game, Overwatch is.

None of your suggestions have actually solved any of the issues i’ve pointed out. The all involve inconsistent treatment of players and sweeping problems under the rug. LFG does not solve problems, it pushes them to the side for later.

189

If a problem doesn’t exist, there’s no need to fix it.

The problem doesn’t exist for reasons specified that you again ignored.

We even have the lead developer attesting to this.

Then get rid of performance based SR sub-diamond, limit grouping to a maximum of 2 for all ranks or remove it altogether, remove the 500 SR range limit for Master above?

Toxic people don’t need a reason to be toxic.

For most “toxicity” there is no real justification to begin with.

Even Geoff talked about this.

You ignored this point.

We test CC to see whether there’s demand for it.

The issues become less relevant if there’s a large demand for it regardless.

Overwatch Classic also need not be a live, constantly evolving game as was described in one of the suggested implementations. It could be given occasional updates.

You’re mistaken - WoW Classic does in fact receive occasional updates.

You also ignored that fact that WoW Classic is immensely popular despite only receiving occasional updates.

This success could be repeated with CC.

They don’t need to.

The issues you’ve pointed out are minor in comparison to all the huge benefits of CC.

Forced 2-2-2 also involves inconsistent treatment of players by forcing Damage players to wait much longer than other roles.

“While You Wait” and 1-3-2 are attempts to sweep the problem under the rug,

With 1-3-2, the queue time problem would simply resurface for the reasons explained.

You ignored this point.

Optional Role Queue does - which is essentially what an improved LFG is.

1 Like
190

  • Many problems exist with your “solutions”, ignoring them does not solve them.

  • While i do agree with your points on performance based SR and whatever, RQ is a massive change to the game. Drastically changing the structure of the game based on player success would feel bad.

  • Toxic people need a reason to be toxic, it can just be very small. Removing the things that trigger them makes them less toxic on average.

  • Issues do not get less relevant based on demand, they get more relevant because more people will see them.

  • The issues i pointed out are HUGE in comparison to anything you get from CC, that’s why CC was removed.

  • RQ does not treat damage players differently to everyone else. They all go through the same system.

  • LFG in any possible form does not solve the issues that are resolved by RQ - LFG just funnels people in to the game. Any form of QPC style varied team comps causes the many issues you’ve repeatedly ignored, edited out or failed to address.

  • Optional role queue is called QPC.

191

sadly, there are multiple differences between qp and qp classic aside from 222, even after achievements were rather recently added to qp classic

2 Likes
192

What are they and why do they matter?

Please, tell me why you dont like RQ?

193

No, Overwatch ruined Role Queue. Simple as that.

194

While I like role queue, the one problem I cannot ignore with it is that it messed with balancing.

Sombra for example is worse because of role queue.

195

By optional I mean the option to play the core mode with or without Role Queue.

I’ll tell you one.

Stats.

Stats are important to a lot of players.

For example I’m very proud of my career profile that you see when you click through to it by my forum name.

Quick Play Classic stats aren’t shown on the web portal.

Even in game they’re buried somewhere around the bottom of one’s profile.

Another is looser matchmaking.

I’m not 100% certain about this one but I believe all the Arcade modes have looser matchmaking.

Even looser than old Quick Play.

Another is the fact that I don’t know if one of my friends is playing Quick Play Classic without entering the game client and spectating them.

If I look on my friends list it just says “Brawl: Brawling”.

With Quick Play, it tells you that they’re in Quick Play so you know you can hop on and join a friend.

Another is the mentality players have going into the Arcade modes versus going into the core “Quick Play” or “Competitive Play” modes.

Ever heard someone say “It’s just Quick Play?”

Now it’s “It’s just Arcade”.

Quick Play Classic is the super chill mode for a lot of players.

You can say “You should group with friends”.

I do, I group with 3 of my other friends.

I can’t however control what the other two do and it isn’t convenient to always try to find a full six-stack.

Another is the fact that the game isn’t balanced around Quick Play Classic.

This one isn’t too much of an issue as having the game balanced around 2-2-2 creates decent enough balance and most players aren’t meta-slaves anyway.

Another is the division of the playerbase.

This means you’re more likely to come against or be teamed with the same players over time.

This could be a positive or negative depending on how you look at it.

Another is confusion.

Let’s say I want to get a friend into Overwatch.

They want to click on “Quick Play”.

They don’t want to play an “Arcade” mode.

I now have to convince them to play an “Arcade” mode with me.

There’s a different mentality around “Arcade” versus “Quick Play”.

Arcade is perceived as the less serious mode.

This ties into division of the playerbase.

This is also a big issue for new players to the game.

For example, there’s a lot of new players on Nintendo Switch and it already has a small population.

They have no reason to click on a mode buried all the way on the right side within Arcade.

This lowers the total population playing.

In the long term this could cause issues with finding a game in a reasonable amount of time defeating one of the reasons to play Quick Play Classic.

1 Like
196

Wow, i’m not even reading that. You quoted 1 part of my post to you then ignored the rest.

197

The same way you ignored most of the points in mine?

198

I replied specifically to your points (apart from the weird second one).

If a problem doesnt exist, there’s no need to fix it. Reply: Many problem exist with your ideas, I’ve told you all about them and you need to fix them.

Forced 2-2-2 also involves inconsistent treatment of players by forcing Damage players to wait much longer than other roles. Reply: Role queue does not treat damage players unfairly, everyone goes through the exact same system.

I didnt reply to your Wow classic point because its kinda silly. Overwatch isnt old enough to generate the nostalgia and therefore money that’s required for a classic version to be worth making.

You’re getting boring and repetitive again, i’m done.

199

Specifically on the points of “creativity” and “high synergy comps”, my response to you was as follows:

You did not address the points I made at all or make any acknowledgment of them whatsoever.

I even gave you a source directly quoting the developer where even he agreed that the problem does not exist at lower/mid levels.

You addressed this point, and not the other three I quoted from my post.

Nice, so you admit to ignoring my point because you have no argument.

It’s not about nostalgia.

if there’s a demand for something it can succeed.

Competitive Classic would more than make up for any cost it generated with return in higher overall player satisfaction.

WoW Classic wasn’t so successful purely due to “nostalgia”.

This is a huge - and incorrect - assumption.

A large amount of players actively preferred the Classic version over the main game despite all the flaws.

Many hadn’t even played WoW Classic the first time around.

You also ignored my point about queue times with 1-3-2.