Talking about the two most niche characters on two roles does not exactly represent the entire role.
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Um ya?
I would end up higher with support because I actually play them, not because they are supports, but because I actually play them so I know how they work and am good at them.
I dont play widow or ball often if every. So obviously I wouldnt go as far with them.
If you asked a widow player or a ball player to do the same thing, they would end up higher with widow or ball?
Do you think people play every hero with equal skills?
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I think that’s the disconnect. In the runner example the two groups will have certain race times (aka rank) similar to the runner who has an advantage. They may feel it’s unfair to be listed in the same rank as a runner who, if they were in their position, would not be a similar rank. This feeling of unfairness will likely never go away if there is a wide gap between the value each role provides.
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thats literally what happened, in a manor of speaking.
the ‘broken supports’ do 1 thing no one else can do, they avoid being punished for mistakes.
as you every well may know, climbing isnt about hero mastery its about making as few mistakes as possible while punishing other peoples mistakes.
this is why people like dafran did unranked to top 500 so easily on heroes he either rarely or never played before.
so when you have heroes that solve 1 part of the equation “being punished for mistakes”, often times while making it easier to punish mistakes, those people climb and if you then nerf those heroes the players derank very quickly.
it could obviously be lower but 70% is an estimate based on all we have seen.
its like that amaterasu guy, hes supposedly top 500 but thinks genji deflect, soldiers healing station and reaper wraith are on the same power scale as kiri’s suzu.
there is no world where a top 500 player should have such a deluded take, everyone can have a hot take from time to time but his entire thought process is a hot take. which shows he has very little understanding of most of the game while somehow being in the top 0.001% of players.
so i estimate 70% based entirely on how many times ive had a high elo support say a brainrotted take to me or someone else.
it could be 50% or 60% or even 45%, all i know is their are alot of very loud very bad support mains that would derank if the heroes were actually nerfed correctly (meaning they removed the bs that makes it so hard to punish their mistakes)
their is a misconception that the supports are only ranked according to eachother, that would be true if it was just support v support
but supports are ranked in relation not only to eachother but how well they can perform against the other 2 roles.
the ‘broken heroes’ make it so players survive in situations that they would otherwise get stomped in.
when you take away that power, they can no longer hold their own against the tank/dps/good supports and thus they derank.
we have seen this happen when heroes like brig were launched and golds were hitting gm, then she gets nerfed and those same golds deranked.
what we have now is a much larger scale version of that, since it has happened over many years.
if you take away the thing that allowed them to hold their own in a given rank, they start to lose most matches because now all of their mistakes get punished and they dont understand why.
I just dont believe a elo system could work like that.
I dont think it should be possible for the majority of the playerbase in a given role to lose most of their games.
I’ll be happy to be proven wrong though
I suppose this is where we have to agree to disagree. the mmr for supports is just between supports.
in a given match of course you are playing against with and against a whole team of 5.
imagine if you’d replace all current support players with 100k clones of jjonaks and sirmajeds.
no matter the rank, you’d always run into jjonak sirmajed on support.
now you go play support on that ladder. Would you rate up , or would you be stuck bronze?
I’d be stuck bronze.
But on dps i could be higher.
ie. the support ladder just represents the skill of the current support playerbase and people are rated relative to that.
But ill agree that it being a team game makes it generally more muddy, which is why good matchmaking in games like this must be super hard for any dev to get right.
Yeah, imo this is different to what is now. If only one hero is blatantly op in role, then people exploiting that hero have an advantage over those who maybe dont. Especially if for some reason the enemy does not pick that broken op hero.
But this has happened in all roles where sometimes a hero is considered broken op.
Then if all the heroes in a role are relatively balanced, it doesnt matter in the same manner anymore.
Now yes, there still are arguably “stronger” and weaker supports that may give advantage in various places, i’ll agree on that. But it is nothing as egregious as what release brig was or Mauga just recently.
Out of all the roles, supports might be the most balanced role in itself at the moment in my opinion. While DPS needs the most help.
And still, with these “golds hitting gm”, if the system worked as it should, GM still should have been around the top 1% of support players.
People also thought with ow2 that “everyone was gm” etc; but blizzard has given the distribution and it was pretty close to what it’s been since ow1.
they wouldnt lose them all of the time, if lets say its 70% (edit: the higher the number of boosted players, the longer it would take but the lower the number of boosted players the faster they’d derank. so if its lets say 40% instead of 70%, they’d derank alot faster since 60% of the supports actually belong in that rank and would vastly outskill the boosted players once their crutch is gone)
they’d very slowly derank because they’d never win the matches against ‘good supports’ of their rank, while having a 50/50 against the equally ‘bad’ supports’ of their rank
because they always lose against the good supports they’d have a less then 50% winrate and thus very slowly derank over time
your still playing into the tank/dps of that rank as well
you are being forced to beat the other role, you are not simply expected to beat the enemy supports
lets say you and another person are playing support, you could could pick moira+kiri and then always kill the enemy supports but their tank and dps kill your teams tank and dps and you lose that match
your rank is a representation of how you perform against those players relative to other supports but its effected by your ability to beat all 3 roles
thats why changing a role significantly can either boost players or derank players
what boosts someone is when something is broken but people dont want to universally abuse it
people would rather play mercy or ana, then bap and kiri but bap and kiri are far easier to climb with.
so the people who do abuse those heroes climb further, faster.
by nerfing those types of heroes down to a normal level the abusers no longer have the crutch to keep themselves in that rank and they will slowly fall to wherever they’d naturally belong.
as i explained it has nothing to do with how many heroes are broken, it has to do with weather or not the majority of people in that role are willing to abuse it
its like in season 4 of ow1 (roughly) their was a changed to the matchmaker that meant if you farmed the right stat in the match youd gain crazy high sr on a win but lose very little on a loss, the most famous example was mercy
if you always did 5 man rez’s and nothing else (built up ult, hide and 5 man rez’d) you could boost yourself into gm, several mercy players did exactly that
but the other supports didnt magically climb because they didnt abuse it (and yes this was nerfed/fixed)
this can effect more then 1 hero, particularly if those heroes arnt as universally picked/abused.
im sorry but that is just a skill issue
The point there is, how well they can perform against the other two roles is part of what they are being ranked against the other support.
If one support is better at dealing with the other two roles, than the other support, they will win more games.
It is still in comparason with the other support.
Now the other part of what you are saying is about hero variant within the support role, and that is absolutely a thing.
But it does mean the support role is easier. It just means the support heroes are different from each other in which skills are used.
But that is the same for all roles.
That doesn’t make it as difficult and I refuse to believe that you don’t understand this.
In my experience it’s more difficult for me to outplay masters dps on the one trick I have three thousand hours on than it is to outplay the other supports when I’m on support. My dps is significantly better than my support. It’s really not close and I admit myself that I’m a bad support. Yet my support somehow reached gm as well, albeit it a lower tier, with barely any playtime in comparison to my dps. In no world should they be in the same rank yet here we are.
It’s more difficult because the players on each role are not at the same skill level until you reach the very top. It’s outright not as hard to outplay the opposing teams supports in bronze to masters than it is the other roles and you’ll struggle to find many who disagree.
Like I said I don’t believe that you don’t understand this.
This. Exactly this.
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Right, I’m not disagreeing there.
Now for you to be competitive as a support, you have to win that fight more often. Because other other support on the other team ALSO finds it easier to easier to beat that masters DPS on the that one trick.
And you think that is because the support HEROES are easier to play?
I edited as you were replying to explain that I meant that it’s easier to get more value in comparison to the other support than it is vs the other dps. It’s that way because skill levels for each role are not the same and that obviously has an impact on difficulty of outplaying them.
Yes. Absolutely yes. If I don’t need to worry about the opposing tank or dps because my hero is busted and only need to worry about the other teams supports it’s easier than when I’m threatened by literally everyone else while also having a more punishable kit.
Your value as dps can drop to zero easily. Support? Not so much. At worst you can healbot and take the 50/50 chance.
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But you will be wrecked, because the other team won’t be healbotting.
Say tomorrow, the balance down Support and Tank and DPS REALLY is the only role which matters.
Say DPS is 1000x more powerful then support or tank.
And you are facing another really good set of DPS players on the other team.
Is your job easy (where your job is to win the game? by outperforming the DPS?)
But they are until the very top. That’s the point. You barely need to do anything to outplay them for 95% of the ladder because the players just simply aren’t as good. I know it comes across as toxic to say it but it’s true. Why is it the case? I don’t know. Maybe the role gets too much easy value, maybe it attracts certain personalities, maybe something else.
It would absolutely be easier than if they were weak because all I’d need to do is diff the 2 other dps instead of 5 other players.
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But here is the thing, you don’t need to diff the other 5 players. You just need to perform better than the DPS on the other team.
IN BOTH of the situations. The system isn’t giving you worse tank and support on average than the team you are playing into.
On average they will be just as good as the enemy teams one.
You do as dps since your value is gatekept by supports, denied by tanks/supports and then you compete with the opposing dps. You need to outplay all 5.
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To the same degree as the DPS on the other side.
Which is why it’s harder to play some roles than others. If you need less skill to complete x task than y it’s easier to complete x. There are zero exceptions to this.
Your task is to play against someone on the other team with the same kit as you and get more value than they do.
If your kit is “easier” so is theirs, and the amount of value you have to extract from it goes up.
You, X have to have a higher value than the other teams player Y.
If you are both on heroes which give twice as much value, Y will be getting twice as much value.
2x > 2y simplifies to x > y
The scaling doesn’t change how hard it is, because the task isn’t to “play the hero” the task is to “get more value than the person on the same role on the other team”
No. My task is to win. To do so as dps I must outplay every role because tanks murder me in the 1v1, dps can diff me and (some) supports murder me in the 1v1 for free while also denying my value with zero risk.
This is not the case for support because their value is largely free and your playmaking is rarely punishable by the other roles.
Exactly.
You miss that the other teams DPS also has the same issues.
just as 2x > 2y simplifies to x>y
1/2x > 1/2y ALSO simplifies to x>y