How do you know? You are making massive assumptions about a player based on a gripe about the matchmaking system.
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Whats always funny about this argument is that it basically assumes that your experience is universal. What if despite their skill or lack thereof, some players are experiencing something different?
I mean this is also funny and usually easily dismissed as an argument too, because individual skill, in a game which relies on team work is asinine to try to assess.
You cannot be skilled in a game at all if you are ignoring the very design which would facilitate such skill in the first place, which in this case, would be reliable matchmaking, teamwork, players not deliberately throwing or tilting others, etc.
Any amount of skill you try to attribute to game sense or FPS, or whatever nonsense touted as this generic ‘skill’ means nothing in the game, unless you strip all the parts of the game away and make it purely FPS, or whatever axis you believe the skill revolves around.
Skill as it exists in Team Based shooters is solely used to boost the self worth and importance of people for whom the matchmaker, and team comps work, and to insult and ignore those who get harassed, trolled, or unlucky.
It’s a combination of skill and luck, but only skill insomuch as you are skilled in ALL the aspects of the game, like playing your role, game sense, and yes, sure VERY basic FPS shooting, AND lucky in all the aspects which require it, which in this game, are most of the core systems, matchmaking, and team comp.
You can’t claim it’s skill based and ignore the rest of the factors, it’s so pathetic and transparent to try to troll that way.
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It takes Mental Gymnastics to believe this.
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quit just picking what works for you when you know damn well what I meant and what I said, it is a TEAM game. nuff said don’t @ me
then maybe your hero is the meta? “tough luck I guess”, since that’s what happens , go ahead and quote the quote I just did for your next argument if you want since you seem to already have it out for me, I took the liberty of quoting it for you so you have an easier time with it since you clearly need it,
did you mean to say “off”? also I gave advice to what works for me, will it work for everyone? NO but is it a smart choice YES so once again don’t @ me. thanks~
They are not experiencing anything different in bigger picture, matchmaker is same for everyone, he doesnt discriminate. Your short term experience might be a lot about luck, sure, but overall experience if you play enough games is eventualy always about your skill.
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And why aren’t your wins lucky? What’s preventing you from getting carried or your enemies having throwers?
You might feel like you had a big impact on your game but let’s be honest comp is just luck with a community like this.
I mean you got Bots who got lucky, good players who were unlucky, smurfs, toxic throwers, derankers, boosters, boosted players, players who didn’t even play for the last 10 seasons but kept their MMR.
Probably even more random factors go into this so what I am trying to say is not every player is equally skilled in your match even if Blizzard is saying that.
However I can relate to that feeling. It’s very fishy when you smurf like 3 ranks below your real rank and still get what feels like a team full of throwers vs a full try hard team. As if the game knows you are smurfing but instead of giving you 200 SR per win you get a super difficult game probably harder than anything on your actual rank.
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Welcome to hell… lol literally everyone is like bronze is 5% of the gamers but it’s where tons of throwers, smurfs and derankers, go to basically “squash” people to make them feel better about them selves, and yes it happens alot more than you think , that’s why I got a group that wanted to climb, and guess what after trying for literally an hour I climbed out.
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You’ll learn pretty quick that in Xion’s world - his experiences are the only true experiences. His ability to consider the larger picture and or anyone else’s experience is well well beyond him.
just ask him.
fwiw you’re spot on. each individual can only control 16.7% of each game. when you directly control that little of the experience then the big picture is murky and very subjective.
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Its time to ditch the Matchmaking they have done indeed. The following factors should influence who you fight:
- SR
- Ping
- FPS
- Level (hero/role level now that role Q has been implemented)
and there you go.
In to the implementation Blizzard ASAP (Dear Product Owner etc.) . Your impact to the game is roughly 16% so thus BS is where you belong. I cannot influence a McCree dying trying to flank when the other McCree is playing with the tanks.
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that isn’t going to happen.
All they need to do is make sure the highest mMR on the team is mirrored across roles/teams.
if the anchor MMR is DPS on team A then it needs to be the same on team B. No more highest MMR as tank on team A then DPS on team B or support vs DPS etc.
Prove it.
You’re just trolling.
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he (xion) is incapable of realizing the MMR system guarantees subjective experience.
the simple example is this. let’s use a gold player. this gold player has high mechanical skill and high game sense relative to his position in gold. the match maker will constantly be filling this player’s games with below average gold players to come up with an average that can be more easily matched by 6 other people. that opposing team will likely have the same high mechanical skill high game sense player anchoring that team, and also be filled with 5 players of a lower average skill/sense.
meaning, both these teams have below average players. to them, they’re experiencing a completely different system than the higher average skill/sense player is because they’re never being asked to carry at the match maker level.
then lets add roles. high skill/sense DPS have a different experience than high skill/sense tanks or supports. why? simple, there are a LOT more DPS leading to on average a higher chance the these DPS get paired off similarly skilled/sensed DPS simply due to the higher population.
Tanks and supports on the other hand, given their smaller total population, are more likely to get paired off against an equally skilled/sensed DPS again, simply because there are more DPS to draw from.
all 3 roles then have a different experience while all 3 are still using the same underlying system.
until the underlying system accounts for the totality of BASE game mechanics, in this case and very specifically the change to 2-2-2, then this shared system originally written for a base rule-set that no longer exists, will continue to produce inconsistent and wildly different subjective experiences.
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Incorrect. IF said player actually DID have higher mechanical skill AND higher gamesense ESPECIALLY with higher teamskills, then said player would not be in gold, or if said player was in gold for some reason, that player would screw up games until that player got to a more appropriate, higher rank.
I think what people fail to realize is that Competitive is almost basically a zero-sum game, and it’s by design because the entire playerbase are human players. Unless you insert actual bots into the game, people rank up by TAKING other people’s ranks. So the unfortunate fact of the matter is, you gain rank by taking OTHER players ranks.
That’s why Comp feels cruel and that is why people feel like Blizzard INTENTIONALLY puts “bad” players in with “good” players. Unfortunately for those “good” players, that just isn’t the truth. Yes, there are people that are higher or lower ranked than they deserve, but that also disproves the “rigged” theory, as said players wouldn’t have gotten higher or lower than they deserve in the first place. If they currently hold whatever rank they have for whatever reason, then they’re simply matched by whatever rank they have, deserved or not.
This goes back to the “subjective experiences” line. YOU DO NOT GET TO BE THE JUDGE of others. Instead, work with them, because human differences are a thing.
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i very specifically said “RELATIVE TO HIS POSITION”. meaning, you’re wrong. there are gold players that are RELATIVELY higher skill than other gold players.
my example is sound, your understanding of simple language needs work.
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I’ll take responsibility for overlooking the “relative to his position line” but even then, that does not matter AND that does not mean you are correct. The actual fact of the matter is that you’re simply matched based on what your current rank is, no matter how you got to that rank.
Firstly, a lot of people that post on this forum will claim that they’re “factually better” than their own rank suggests (therefore, your “example”), and that they lose because the matchmaker intentionally gives them “factually worse” teammates to “balance” the game out. I know that you probably believe that too, because in that very same post, you replied with:
the simple example is this. let’s use a gold player. this gold player has high mechanical skill and high game sense relative to his position in gold. the match maker will constantly be filling this player’s games with below average gold players to come up with an average that can be more easily matched by 6 other people. that opposing team will likely have the same high mechanical skill high game sense player anchoring that team, and also be filled with 5 players of a lower average skill/sense.
And as I said before, you’re matched with humans and you’re taking on a team of other humans. Sure, you can get “balanced” matches where it just so happens that you have 3 smurfs and 3 normal accounts vs 3 smurfs vs 3 normal accounts, but you can also get any other combination of that, including 6 smurfs vs 6 normal accounts. And that’s because you’re not matched by “what your real skill is”, but simply by what the account’s rank is, NO MATTER HOW THAT ACCOUNT GOT TO THAT RANK. That’s why people complain about smurfing and boosted accounts in the first place, and that’s not even factoring in incorrect perceptions about a player just because of one “good” or “bad” game, because let’s face it, there’s a reason why there’s a stigma that people that play video games are immature.
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no, you’re matched by your MMR AND SR to create two ‘evenly’ matched teams.
my suggestion is the team’s highest MMR needs to be mirrored across teams because tanks and supports with relatively high mmr are more likely to be paired off against opposing DPS of similarly and relatively high mmr which produces horrible games.
i believe what the devs post. the devs have outlined at a high level (as in without verbose detail not at the higher SR levels) that there is in fact a handicap system by way of MMR and this MMR is used to form teams within a preferably small SR range when optimal and a larger SR range when not optimal.
this means at all SR ranks, MMR is being utilized to ‘form even teams’ at all SR ranges there are relatively higher skilled players than the rest. in every SR bracket this exists, not just at the high levels.
when the match maker itself fails to account for role lock, it will produce ineffective teams when it pairs off relative MMR outliers on opposing roles.
if you don’t get this, you’re not worth arguing with. BECAUSE of the human factor and absolute lower over all skill in the middle brackets, roles are objectively more or less capable of carrying the team to victory despite the individual 16.7% participation of the individual.
ergo - in the middle brackets where bad DPS play cutesy heroes that bring nothing to the team’s total synergy, and opposing DPS (be it smurf or just relatively higher skilled DPS for the position) playing reaper, maie, hanzo, etc will generally get picks in each and every team fight where his opposing equal who might be a support player who is occupying the same right end of the relative MMR bell curve (for the general SR rank) will be struggling to out heal that DPS’ damage let alone get picks.
this is why the matches feel so un-winnable. it isn’t the system ‘cheating you’ or me or anyone its that the system itself is F****** flawed as it DOES NOT account for any of this despite the game being updated to force role lock.
get it yet?
Agree with almost everything but fps, even in plat it’s not that much of a difference maker.
Incorrect. You’re SOLELY matched by MMR and SR isn’t even used at all. I know that you’re probably one of those people that thinks that you have an SR, but your MMR is a differentiator between “good” and “bad” players at the same SR. I say that view is incorrect, but you’re free to believe what you want. However, Jeff straight up said that SR isn’t used at all, only MMR:
This has been stated long before as well by Bill Warnecke from Blizzard:
https://twitter.com/ww/status/867570441182826499
Anyways, see the below topic. It has what I say is the correct interpretation of what Blizzard has been saying. That being said, Blizzard nuked their old forums, so Kaawumba could only recreate what they previously posted on their old forums:
This goes off the assumption that MMR is a differentiator between “good” and “bad” players at the same SR, but that isn’t what MMR was in the first place.
Once again, that goes with the assumption that MMR is there to be a differentiator between “good” and “bad” players at the same SR. And no, that’s not what MMR was in the first place.
There’s this video of Seagull and Jeff Kaplan, where Jeff Kaplan revealed that MMR is a value between -3 and 3, which presumably meant standard deviations from a mean. +3 (and slightly above) is the highest of the ranks (GM and above) and -3 (and slightly below) is the lowest of the ranks (low Bronze and below).
Matches could feel “unwinnable” because as you said, the human element. That’s the sole thing I agree with you at: there’s a human element where not only humans are inconsistent at whether they perform well or poorly, humans might just work well with certain humans and not work as well with other certain humans. That’s human volatility AND human differences at work.
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Jeff is wrong here. groups are assembled WITHIN a SR range. otherwise +3 smurfs in gold would be thrown into masters games.
within a SR range, MMR will differ between players so again, it IS used to differentiate between good and bad players within a given SR range.
edit ML7’s bronze to GM series are proof of this. he would never stay within bronze, silver, gold etc if the match maker DID NOT also use SR. Within a few games the ‘perfect system’ would realize “oh crap this guy is +3” and immediately throw him into GM games despite his silver SR if in fact the system DID NOT use SR.
what a stupid and easily debunked thing to say.
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MMR is a system intended to handicap that player that’s just how it is.
At the same time it’s not rigged.
It’s a very garbage matchmaker and you could throw six plats together against six plats with no mmr in a minute but the game is trying to use stats to determine a fair match.