Don’t know If I’m about to post a bad take or not but for the amount of value that these ultimates can consistently get I feel like they charge relatively way too fast at the moment. I’d suggest making them have the same charge time as Zarya to alleviate this because honestly Reinhardt has no business getting 2 ultimates within under a minute IMO.
To give you a visualazation on tank ult gain I’ll list them by longest to fastest charge rate:
Well both Rein and Ram have most of their damage from being within a close range, so when they actually DO get in close, they get rewarded for it. And Rein can’t even attack when his shield is up either
Oh and for hog, his ult cost is the highest cuz he can heal himself too, and that gives him ult charge as well
Reinhardt has no range; every move aside from his shield leaves him open, and he’s the most team reliant tank in the game. Why shouldn’t his ult charge fast? Even his ult leaves him open, so you can stun him out of it if you’re paying attention.
Reinhardt does have a relatively low charge rate but he does have to make up for his lack of range. However, I think what makes his charge fast is when he knocks down players with his ultimate, he can soon gain charge again. If he hits a couple players once they start recovering from stun, he can gain back some ultimate charge before they die, and sometimes it can be up as high as a quarter or third charge again before the next team fight.
Ramattra with his ability to pierce through shields and collateral damage, I’m able to build my ult charge up as the other tank is generally trying to dodge or use defensive abilities. You can switch from range spray, to close range and keep up a consistent flow of damage. In general, if you’re good at keeping up tempo, then most tanks can really keep their ultimate rate up, like a good Doomist even or something.
There’s he has charge to close the gap and the reins I play with always have a Lucio so this argument is null IMO. For the stuns part only Orisa and Ana are really good for that with Sigma having to predict it ahead of time.
Just saying, Lucio being played with Rein shouldn’t factor into Reinhardt’s abilities at all. This is because Reinhardt usually NEEDS his supports to pocket him for value.
Not really, he’s top of the META in OWL and ladder play right now don’t see why people are delusionaly still thinking he’s under preforming because he has no range.
I never said he was underperforming because of no range. I said he needs specific things because of no range. Its like when people said he’s not allowed to have range, and also his shield shouldn’t be strong because no one likes shooting shields. Do you see a problem with that line of thinking?
He has to have SOME upside; all characters do. If we start nerfing Rein because of his synergies, then he’ll just need his synergies more. Not saying you’re advocating for nerfs, but I wanted to point out that we’ve been down this road before.
I wouldn’t trust raw numbers on this one… Take in mind different tanks have different ways to get ult charge.
Hog’s ult for example might look like the hardest one to get, but when he can heal 350 health almost instantly, that’s ton of ult charge he gains even without dealing damage…
So you mentioned Rein earlier. Rein, is the tank that in my opinion, has the hardest time hitting enemies.
He doesn’t really have any major mobility like Winston,D.va,Hammond or Doomfist (his charge is not really something to rely on… and he actually gets slower by using his shield).
He can’t block and attack at the same time unlike Zarya,Rammatra,Orisa,Hammond etc…
He can’t reach anything consistently with his short hammer unlike Sigma,Orisa,Roadhog,Rammatra, etc…
Rein is more of a utility tank that provides protection and a quick clean of territory for his team, but is also much easier to avoid.
So while he needs the least amount of ult, he also gets the least by not hitting anything for much longer…
So I personally think Rein is really balanced in that aspect.
As for Rammatra - his ult is the 5th longest ult. I don’t think it’s that fast to get it… Hog can get ton of ult charge from healing, Zarya’s ult is one of the strongest ult in the game when used right.
So he’s only behind Sigma & Orisa. and tbh, I don’t feel like his design is too different from these 2, and his ult isn’t stronger than theirs… Both Orisa & Sigma got ults that has aoe damage & cc, while Rammatra only got the aoe damage. but it’s not even in burst. So while players might struggle to escape Orisa or Sigma’s ult. Rammatra’s ult is more forgiving…
I just don’t see why considering his ult fast, when he’s at 5th place, behind 2 tanks that have similar concepts both in normal design (medium-long range tanks, with some long range protection and projectiles that don’t go through shields) and even ult.
While this is partially true, he isn’t completely dependent on them. Maps are generally designed to favor short-ranged tanks.
Yep. Especially since the reversion/damage-boost to 100 damage now. And he gets two of them.
He builds up quickly in Nemesis form, though a lot more players are getting used to Nemesis now and are more capable at avoiding it.
Seems like I need to explain the basics for ultimates here.
Essentially, everyone earns ultimate charge at the same rate and will usually achieve ultimates around the same amount of time. The key difference for why ultimate charges differ is largely because of performance and operation between the roles.
With the exception of the Support-role and few specific characters, every has only one source of ultimate charge. Doing damage. Thus, the more damage you do, the more frequent you get your ultimate charge. Supports and other specific characters can also earn ultimate charge through another method; healing themselves or others.
For Tanks, and one of the reasons why they have generally cheap ultimate charge, they have split their time between defending and dealing damage. Since defense offers no ultimate charge, the other way to get charge then, is by attacking and dealing damage and earning eliminations. Many tanks tend to be short-ranged, so the ult charge is adjusted accordingly.
Some of the most expensive ultimates are found in the Support role, this is because Supports typically earn ultimate charge through healing others (and because of how easy it is to do this) and through dealing damage. Lucio may have one of the most expensive ultimates in the game, but he typically earns more ultimate charge that most heroes in the game do.
For Damage-role, they typically have more expensive ultimates than Tank-role because they are dedicated to doing damage, and they (arguably) have some of the most powerful ultimates in the game. This technically balanced by how difficult it is to land your shots and deal damage (which is why Hanzo’s ultimate, Dragonstrike can be so cheap), as well as the difficulty and power of the ultimate. So performance ends up being a big part of ultimate frequency. Perform well and you’ll see your ultimate more often.
Ultimate charge is done this way to also be pro-active and reward aggression and success. Being passive means less ultimate charge, less frequent ultimates and generally poor play. At some point or another, you’ll still get a chance to use the ultimate out of “pity”, because ultimate charge also passive generates at a fixed rate (which is the same for all characters, regardless of cost).
Thus, heroes like Reinhardt and Ramattra can quickly generate their ultimates by being aggressive and landing their shots, rather sitting around on chokes or holding up barriers and be rewarded for that. Reckless behavior still leads to death and dying means less opportunities to gain ultimate charge… at least in theory. Doesn’t quite work that way all that well.
Do you play Reinhardt? If you think maps are designed to favor short ranged tanks, I don’t really know what to say to you. Several maps have a variety of locations where characters can stand ABOVE you and shoot at you while you’re mostly defenseless. Yeah, you can fire strike them. You can also lose more than half of your health in the exchange because lmao fire strike.
Trying to be hyper aggressive in nemesis form was always a bit of a trap, you are just going to get swatted like a fly. The better use was to cycle between shield and the block in nemesis form for a poke style of play.
Still, not the fastest ult charge, kind of zarya’ish to be honest.
Ram is mostly fine in the charge rate, if not the ult itself. He only really builds charge if he’s up close and punching multiple targets, and he urns nothing while blocking.
Rein’s problem is his fire strike. It pierces barriers and enemies, he gets two now on a fairly low CD and it’s back up to 100hp a hit each last I looked. This makes it fairly easy to get 15-20% fairly easily with a single fire strike, and you get two. Never mind once you get close and the hammer comes out.
I think shatter always been insanely strong given it’s massive area. But previously Rein had but one Fire strike, and then they lowered the dmg when it went to 2.
Those numbers do not list them longest to fastest as the rate each tank does damage and healing varies between tanks.
All supports can enable all tanks to ult faster so that’s not really a point.
So you resort to lying?
Winston > ball > dva > rein. He’s a niche pick in OWL.
Also shatter has a low conversation rate in OWL he’s picked for map control and area denial.
Fact is by design a hero should be able to ult every 2-3 fights with like one exception (tracer).
As rein is right now he falls in that region.
As for your point… It’s worthless all you’ve really said is you feel it’s to often which is something but you think the damage needed to ult shows you how fast you can ult, you don’t understand how the game works. You don’t judge a car on how fast it goes by the miles it driven but by how fast it can drive a mile. This is how flawed you argument is.
Then there is how objective you are… You’ve lied and taken points out of context then called it pointless… You’re not objective in anyway.
To answer your question I don’t see reins ulting every fight so it’s fine and you seem confused on how tanks do damage at different rates.
Like Nepal’s small capture points? Or Oasis? Lijiang Tower? Ilios? All of them are really built with about or less than 30 meters across on many of their capture points. Yeah, many them also have high vantage points too, but still have plenty of coverage.
And short–ranged Tanks, also means Winston, D.va, Wrecking Ball, and Doomfist who all have the mobility to reach those high vantage point and deal with difficult targets.
Now I can certainly grant you that your argument works well for heroes like Junker Queen, who would have a difficult time on some of these maps, but Reinhardt isn’t likely to have too many issues thanks to his massive barrier, high poke damage with Firestrike, and using good old cover. The rest of his team can also assist him with his shortcomings.
It can work in a bull-rush style strategy, but not always. Thankfully,
Works well in both guarding and general poking too. So yeah, I can agree with this.
What I’m trying to find is other methods of getting Ramattra to work with. He’s really difficult to win with in heavy CC fights and so far, he can’t really force a draw.
Mmmm, I still find it harder to get Zarya’s ultimate as quickly. But there are some fire fights where it can charge pretty quickly. Getting my team to pay attention for when I launch it for maximum impact is much harder. To say nothing of being able to stand up long enough without dying.
Landing a Vortex in a clump of the enemy team also works wonders for ultimate charge, too.
Players are adjusting pretty quickly to it. But I still get fights where I just wipe out teams with his ultimate. So gotta take it on the chin.
And yeah, his ultimate cost is fine for the moment. I don’t see a need to raise or lower it right now.