🐇 It's time to revert Dva, not nerf her

General Discussion
1

OOOO boy I’m going into the tigers den with this one, but don’t worry about me, I’m well prepared.

Pickrate =/= Good, but facts do.

If you use this as a reason to nerf Dva, then I just feel sorry for you. However to all the Dva mains, I’m going to separate facts from pickrate so you won’t have to pull up the “don’t use pickrate” argument, er, counter-argument anymore.

Anything you can do, I can do better… And more…

  • Why pick Zarya for her 8 second bubbles when Dva has 10 second DM refill times, but can use DM at any point (Bubbles can get baited, DM cannot).

  • Why pick Hog for his burst when Dva has missiles?

Those 2 points are why Dva outclasses the off-tank role, which I’ll discuss later below. But she can do more than just those 2 things. Her boosters are not only used for mobility, they can be used to bump enemies back, or off cliffs. When you pair up high mobility with strong defense anytime you want it, then sprinkle on a little burst damage, it’s no wonder why she’s so popular.

All of this factors in to her being a jack of all trades, master of some, master of none.

Aside from her kit…

People love Dva in the same way that others like Genji, or Mercy, or any other hero in OW.

I’m willing to bet that Dva’s popularity doesn’t solely stem from balance, and that most, if not a lot, of the forum users like her for her personality, or her edginess, or XYZ reason.

This plays a huge factor into the ‘high pickrate = nerf’ argument, er, counter-argument. If we nerf based off of popularity, then why hasn’t Genji been nerfed yet (That was hypothetical. I actually think he’s balanced now, aside from his frustrating hitboxes. But the “nerf Genji” craze was what I’m referring to)? We can all scream that he’s the poster boy of OW, or that he rakes in the money made from OWL, but statically he’s balanced. (This is where what Jeff said about the trifecta of balance, as most people want him nerfed based off of how he feels, like his huge deflect hitbox).

However, just like we learned with Mercy, you cannot protect an OP hero (not saying Dva is OP) with the reason of their fanbase. IIRC Some Mercy mains would say that she’s fine, after each nerf that Mercy got. Each nerf also made her unfun to play AS WELL AS not solving her core issues, since each nerf was just a light stroke of the nerf feather. With each nerf Mercy stayed OP, but became less fun and less engaging. But despite the facts, some said that she was balanced. That everyone else needed to get good. Learn to play.

Why revert over nerf?

Dva’s problems STEM from poor balance. Not that the balance team is braindead, but that they have just made poor decisions with Dva and one thing lead to the next, and now she’s radicalized.

I’ve played since Launch, so I remember the OG Dva that was a joke. Her DM was an ability, not a toggle like it is now. It was easy to bait, and when she did get baited she would hold it up for 4 seconds, and then it would go on the 10 second CD.

I’ll make it as simple as possible:

  1. OG: 100/400 health/armor, Joke-of-a-DM, No Missile.
  2. 100/400 got turned into 200/400 which started Triple Tank, and DM got buffed to become a toggle, WHICH WAS NEEDED TO FIX HER.
  3. TT needs to end, so Dva’s health gets nerfed to 400/200, which upset everyone because the original 100 extra HP buff was unnecessary.
  4. The HP nerf made Dva USELESS against her counters, aka Reaper, Hog, and Bastion. Hog could actually demech her with his hook combo, but since his DMG nerf it wouldn’t be possible anymore. Thus they turned DM into a 3DM, and I call it 3DM because I compare it to that of a 3D Rein Shield. DM used to delete things ONLY when it traveled a certain distance inside of DM, but now anything that touches it got deleted. (In case you want to know, this is when I feel the hate towards DM started)
  5. Now she got missiles… But in exchange for lowering her uptime of her radical 3DM.

So yeah, one thing lead to another and now we ended up here…

#I don’t want to have to learn her again.

Yes, I can see how frustrating it is to change up your playstyle, however… you and me both wouldn’t be in this hole if one Dva balance change broke something and another had to fix it.

Between reworking her again (via reverting her) and straight up nerfing her, which would you chose? And don’t be edgy and say “she’s fine” because she’s not -she’s consumed Zarya’s viability and has replaced her, she’s good in almost every situation, and has very little reaper-cussions when her counters are used, because she is too good against her counters.

The off-tank problem, and ‘niche’ vs ‘generalist.’

While I, myself, am against generalists (heros that can be played most situations, like Tracer, Soldier, or now Dva), I would accept if they wouldn’t out-perform niche heros (Reaper the tank counter, Pharah on koth, Mei the… staller???).

Dva, currently, is a generalist because she can be used any situation, dive or no dive, and we’ve only just gone back into the dive meta because technically, Mercy enabled other comps since picks didn’t matter, it was how you utilized teamwork and synergy. We do still see some different comps, but nothing really compares to Dive.

Idk when she turned, and I don’t want to point the finger at her missiles buff because she was a problem long before that.

What do to?

TL;DR:

Option #1: OG with flavor

  • 100/400
  • 1.1 DM
    • Toggle Ability (like it is now)
    • Projectiles, Bullets, Ults, thingys, need to travel a certain distance in DM to be destroyed.
    • Still 2 seconds

This brings her back to the days where DM wasn’t a complaint unless you were bad, since there is/was counterplay (like using ults at the ground [Mei, Zarya]). The main problem this would fix is her mech health, since 600 is a HUGE buffer, and trying to wear it down in the 5 second CD of her boosters, on top of 2 seconds of DM, is pretty hard, especially for her counters. Her DM has the same uptime since her boosters are a go-to escape ability to evade poor positioning and evade her counters.

Option #2: Not-a-revert, but a cutback

  • 200/300
  • critbox removed
  • 1.1 DM
    • Toggle Ability (like it is now)
    • Projectiles, Bullets, Ults, thingys, need to travel a certain distance in DM to be destroyed.
    • Back at 4 seconds of uptime
  • booster CD now at 8 seconds

Since Hog is no longer the powerhouse that he once was, Dva wouldn’t be shredded by his hook combo. This also trades her mech-sustainability for her defensive-sustainability. She can be more defensive with DM, but is forced to last through fights since she can’t fly out as fast any more. This helps her counters like Reaper, Bastion, or Hog, as they can pressure her based off of her positioning, without worry that she’ll just fly back to her team and get healed. DM is the same as above, aside from uptime, since current DM is a problem (Dva mains think it’s too short, while everyone else hates the insta-delete it brings). For those who freaked out when I said counters, yes, counters are a way of life. without them why do we have 27 heros? Why not just 6 generalists since switching isn’t necessary?

This is where I leave you…

In all, Dva is fine, but not fine. She’s a complicated mess, and pinning down how she’s powerful is hard, but it’s pretty clear that she’s too good when she’s getting more kills and assists than the DPS heros.

Yes, you heard me right, she gets more kills and assists than DPS heros.

I can’t recall any other tank being that powerful, because even in the old days of Hog 1.0, he could miss hooks, and his killing potential was based off his combo.

I feel, strongly, that nerfing her missiles won’t do anything. Dive existed before she had missiles, and her missiles made her more useful in non-dive comps (thus the high pickrate). Her problems stem beyond missiles too, which is like putting a bandaid on a broken arm; it makes it feel like it’s fixed but it’s not. The pain is far deeper.

In the end, if Dva’s pickrate lowers, people will move onto the next hero, and the next. This isn’t so much a fault of out own, but that balance in MP games are always changing. Both Blizzard and the playerbase cannot sit back if things are broken, or even slightly out of line. Some seek personal gain, like Genjis vs Moira. Others, like me, enjoy facing an wide roster and not worry about a hero being in every game, or one that can stand uncontested, like Dva does currently. I want her to be good, but not so good that it hurts other heros like Zarya.

18 Likes
2

Or maybe we could let D.Va’s counters counter her.

I think D.Va should be in a world of hurt if Hog hooks her. Literally everyone else is. And making Reaper lose even more of his niche? Just no, D.Va is never and should never get more armour.

I know you said that not being able to fly out helps her counters, but it really doesn’t when compared to both an armour AND a critbox buff. I don’t wanna hook a D.Va and only do like 100 damage including melee.

23 Likes
3

Not while she has defenses up the wazoo.

  • 600 HP, 400/200
  • 2 second DM upime
  • 5 second booster CD

You expect a Reaper to go through all of that, all while she’s being healed up?

That’s 3 seconds to wear down 600 HP (with some of it being armor).

It used to be that way, but then we got 3DM.

He already sucks against her. js.

No it does. They need TIME to counter her. How do you expect them to counter her in the 3 seconds between booster CD and DM uptime?

And actually it would be a HUGE buff since it puts a rock in Dive. Dive has 2 of the lowest healers in the game, but how can they keep up a 600 HP mech? That doesn’t seem logical. My brain is getting errors when trying to process how 46.25 HPS can keep her up.

2 Likes
4

If we merely used casual pickrates, you’d have a point.

But Genji hasn’t had an 85%+ (now 95%) OWL and pro pickrate for over a year like D.Va has.

3 Likes
5

That was hypothetical. I actually think he’s balanced now, aside from his frustrating hitboxes. But the “nerf Genji” craze was what I was referring to.

He’s had his time to shine, and once again I don’t want to nerf off of pickrates alone, especially in OWL. Otherwise we would need to nerf Tracer because she’s up there too with Dva.

1 Like
6

Your option #1 makes her worse than season 2 D.Va which was buffed for a reason.

Option #2, no. The 8 second cooldown on boosters would be the death of D.Va.

So, both of those options are terrible humongous overnerfs.

If we are going to be tweaking D.Va significantly, and I think we could probably just increase her missile cooldown personally. But if it is going to be a significant tweak just

Option #1 remove Micro Missiles entirely and add 1 more second of DM.
Option #2 remove Micro Missiles, decrease her crit box by 30% and make her 200/300 hp/armor
Option #3 Go with something less drastic like increasing the rocket cooldown and maybe add 10% to the charge time for call mech.

Not to mention that bringing up a revert is just not something Blizzard really ever does.

13 Likes
7

I agree, buffing counters should be done before dealing with heroes directly in my opinion. It opens more doors in terms of balance options since it avoids making one hero much better or worse and instead makes one hero better against another. This indirect approach leads to different interactions between heroes that weren’t being discussed.

Sombra was buffed to counter Tracer/Genji harder (In my opinion.)
It resulted in being a strong counter to Lucio.

Whether you agree with the potency of the Sombra changes or not, I think that the way she was handled was better for the game than just nerfing the heroes that were being complained about. Was it too much? Maybe, but the concept is the important part.

8

Given the mechanics of healing in this game, they don’t need more time, they need lower time time to kill. Did you know that Moira outheals Reaper’s damage to an armoured target without headshots?

The question is how can we get Reaper to kill D.Va before Moira helps. Similarly with Roadhog, his DPS at point blank against an armoured target is 97.5. So with a Mercy healing her, he’d do 37.5dps. You see how this might be an issue, right? He wouldn’t even be able to chew through her armour without reloading. It’s about that initial stun and blast making her SO vulnerable that his team demechs her before healers like Ana can make her invincible.

9

I mean, pros have wanted Tracer, Zenyatta (right click), Winston (bubble), and D.Va nerfed for well over a year but the mentality (outside of Tracer generally being considered op) hasn’t come to the pub scene yet.
Casuals don’t play in the highest levels of play so they naturally don’t understand why some heroes are considered overpowered unless it’s incredibly obvious (prenerf Valk Mercy, maybe Tracer), so there’s naturally going to be conflicting opinions between pros and casuals.

That said, dismissing any nerfs needed for the pro meta to evolve (even minor ones like a Zen right click nerf or Bubble revert) will eventually put the game in an unhealthy state and will kill the esports scene. Everyone complains that OWL is prodominantly dive but get angry whenever any part of it is being considered for nerfs, even if they’re minor nerfs.

4 Likes
10

D.Va’s defense matrix returning to the older mechanic of deleting projectiles only after they travel a certain distance is a terrible idea. It prevented D.Va from using DM to save her allies when they were hooked, flashbanged, or otherwise made vulnerable at close range because projectiles aimed at them would hit before DM could delete them.

Introducing a dead zone where DM isn’t functional directly in front of D.Va, much the same way that a Reaper can stuff his shotguns into Reinhardt’s face through Rein’s shield, would be a much cleaner way to introduce a similar weakness to DM without destroying one of its primary utilities.

Overall, though, I think the current D.Va plays much more fluidly and feels better than the old D.Va both as D.Va and playing against D.Va. I would rather deal with dodging rockets, than have to deal with 4 seconds straight of being completely unable to do anything because D.Va is staring at me and holding right click.

The whole premise of D.Va’s design as a tank is that she can kill you before you kill her in close range due to her health pool and damage output combined, but that you can easily avoid her by running away since her primary damage ability makes her move slowly. In that way, D.Va as a tank is able to control space by forcing the enemy to move, and she does that very well. She’s not nearly as much of a threat once you learn to recognize a dive before she hits you and react accordingly by moving away from the area that D.Va wants to control. If you stay there and fight her, unless you are a Reaper or another tank, then you deserve the death that she will easily give you.

If you truly want to see D.Va changed for the better, then I would instead look at her pilot form rather than her mech at this point. With 150hp and a pitiful weapon, pilot D.Va is purposely left alive as long as possible in high-tier games just to stagger her respawn, and that feels terrible both to play as D.Va and to watch as a spectator of the OWL. Making adjustments to her mech health could be compensated with changes to make pilot D.Va invulnerable during eject and slightly more dangerous outside of her mech. Changes like that would make D.Va gameplay much more dynamic and interesting for everyone.

4 Likes
11

Reaper should hardcounter D.va, end of story. No need to give her more armor.

1 Like
13

Why.

Why.

That’s just 2 steps forward and 2 steps back. Once again, it’s not addressing issues like Dive.

DM would still be a problem, espeically since you can only damage/demech Dva in 2 seconds, and not 3.

I could live with.

So nerf the aspect about Dva that isn’t the problem?

I know, but after 2 years of Dva being broken one patch, OP the next, and still has been a meta pick, something needs to be done, perferably a revert. I want a revert because look at all the problem that have come from her buffs and nerfs?

We now have a 600 HP ult feeder, with a bipolar 3DM, and a “e for free damage”. In 3 months I don’t want to worry about how useless missiles are.

It was never suppose to be like that, and she also traded the near-anytime uptime for it. Also remember that Hog’s overall hook-combo has been nerfed, so just booping him away is enough to save an ally.

That’s how it should work. She has boosters to reposition herself if someone does get close (i.e. a Reaper).

And the ‘dead zone’ was only amplified when her armor got gutted. Hog could actually demech her in a hook-combo back then.

Pilot is irrelevant when Dva spends +80% in her mech. Once again, it doesn’t address her core issues.

14

D.Va’s defense matrix returning to the older mechanic of deleting projectiles only after they travel a certain distance is a terrible idea. It prevented D.Va from using DM to save her allies when they were hooked, flashbanged, or otherwise made vulnerable at close range because projectiles aimed at them would hit before DM could delete them.

That was the point. To not make it 100% reliable and to prevent it from being used to reliably remove someone from the game. Because that’s what matrix did once it was buffed. It became the most broken ability in the game.

That’s the moment when D.Va went from balanced to broken.

Matrix is never coming back

Blizzard learned on that one and it will never give her a longer matrix.

1 Like
16

OPTION 3
Leave her like she is now, because it is fine and no matter what you would change people always find reasons to flood the forums with annoying threads.

3 Likes
17

people here are largely biased towards DPS being the cause of meta imbalance. on the ladder, it can seem that games live and die based on who gets the better DPS. so when it comes to discussing dive meta, people will say “well nerf genji and tracer and it goes away”. this isn’t true, of course - you will just get sombra, soldier, junkrat, pharah… taking the place as dive DPS since there exist no tools in the game to stop d.va and winston seizing high ground and deleting whoever is already there with the aid of discord orb/speed boost. that’s just how the game is right now.

for all of this d.va debacle i’m happy people here finally realize that it’s tanks and supports that are central to metas, and DPS are really only chosen to combo well with the tank/support core that is the strongest.

if you want to address a meta, start by looking at the tanks and supports that make it possible.

5 Likes
19

I disagree. One of D.Va’s core issues is that pilot D.Va is useless. It would be much better if D.Va were redesigned to spend only 50% of combat in her mech, and was more consistently able to get back into her mech after losing it. It would encourage risky plays with the mech and conservative plays as pilot D.Va, providing two different playstyles and sets of abilities to master for a single hero. That could be lots of fun!

20

Please read what I quoted, because She’s not fine, you just want an easy way out of fixing her.

1 Like
21

Or just double her damage needed to get her Ultimate.
It’s now one of the lowest in the game, at only 1375 damage needed.

It resets her HP without much consequence, making her able to stay in a fight for a long time like Roadhog, while still having the mobility of someone like Winston. (And the ganky firepower of Old Roadhog).

22

It’s not suppose to be her core kit though.

It’s like saying buff Pharah when she’s on the ground. She’s not suppose to be there and she should be punished if so.

23

All of your suggestions just place her in a worst place than Season 1. She only turned into a DM bot because attempting a 1v1 with her was suicide, her survivability was too low and the TTK an enemy was far too high. It was always more effective to DM rather than try anything because she was nerfed too heavily.

3 Likes