For a while now I’ve felt that push was alright because the maps were at least enjoyable to play on. But lately that is not a good enough excuse. Push snowballs so easily that it’s basically impossible to make a comeback. Inb4 “I’ve won plenty of games where my team was losing.” So have I. I’ve won a game where the enemy pushed the bot to our spawn and it was qp so there was even less time. I’m by no means saying it’s impossible, but in the majority of games, you’re not going to make a legendary comeback. Once you lose 2-3 team fights in a row, the game is over for your team unless you get very lucky. It takes a while to find a counter strategy sometimes, but push can have games that are literally 5 minutes long. There is also not a period in the middle where you can take a breather and reassess the situation and your team comp.
Compare this to a game mode like payload. You can lose 3 or more team fights in a row and then capture the point in the last 30 seconds and push the payload to the end with time remaining. Or on control, your team can get stomped the first round and then change up your comp and win the next two rounds. With push, once those first two or three team fights are lost, you need to pray for a miracle. No game mode that results in games under ten minutes is competitive.
Push is mathematically unfair.
Remove push from competitive play. You did it for clash, now do it for your other garbage game modes too. That includes flashpoint, which is another topic.
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Push is literally the only mode I enjoy anymore and it still feels the quickest when things aren’t going well. They already got rid of Clash which I enjoyed too, we’re just going to have to play all the boring and horrid Payload and Hybrid maps in comp!?
No thanks.
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If they aren’t going to give me payload or hybrid, I prefer FAST games. If we out matched, that’s cool. I get it. You do not need to torture me for half an hour to prove your point. 
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I think you guys complain about every mode that isn’t Payload. BUT I also see the value in curated competitive modes for competitive play.
The question is, would it really just be payload? Would you guys like a mode specifically created for competitive play in mind?
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Hybrid, Control, and Payload are all game modes with competitive integrity.
The reason why we don’t like the game modes is because they don’t work well. Push and clash snowball too easily while flashpoint gives a huge advantage to whoever reaches point first. They just aren’t very competitive.
Why doesn’t KOTH/Control give that advantage to whoever reaches the place first? What’s the difference? Not that I like Flashpoint, I’m just curious.
I actually think Push is really fun, so that’s the specific hill I’ll die on. Flashpoint…seems like it’d be better with Moba mechanics. Like PVE enemies sprinkled around, Mounts (or the OW equivalent) and the ability to respawn on ally heroes.
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I’m pretty sure the devs had come out and said that Control has like 60-70% winrate for the team who first caps while Push tended to be closer to 50%. Let’s not forget that Push stomps only last like 3 minutes while stomps in other modes last SO LONG.
I wish you could have like a checklist of the modes you want to play in comp. I’d probably only check Push.
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Clash and Flashpoint are worse than Push IMO. Those should get adjusted first.
It does, but said advantage can only be achieved with speed boosts or teleporters. These are things your team can do to get an advantage and are a choice. Flashpoint just lets one team get to point sooner because they happen to be closer.
It can be but it snowballs too easily to be competitive. I’m not calling for the mode to be removed from the game, I’m calling for it to be removed from comp.
I’m not diehard for control either. I don’t personally enjoy that mode. In fact often would prefer to play on a push map than a control one. But push is objectively unfair.
Hopefully map voting allows people to select between multiple game modes.
I agree.
Getting the bot pushed into your spawn means that you’ve lost somewhere around 7 fights in a row. To put this into an old timey mode’s perspective, 7 straight fight losses in Control puts you at 0-1 and very close to being 0-99% in the second round. How likely are you to come back from that?
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I’ve had games where we lost only 3 fights and it’s close enough to our spawn to be extremely difficult to come back from
The break between rounds on control allows you to recover from things snowballing out of your control. There aren’t any ult economy advantages or disadvantages.
3 fights puts the bot on the verge of getting first check point. Push is generally a 7-8 fight game. Sometimes 6, if the performance difference is really stark.
It’s just a bad mode for competitive imo. This video is kinda old so it doesn’t take into account all the recent respawn changes they added to push. I don’t even remember them all but it again points to the issue with this mode. If you have to mess with respawn times just to make it balanced then it’s not good to begin with.
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Hard agree.
Flash, Clash (even though I like it and it’s only this bad because the matchmaker is so trash), and Push should all be casual-only until they either heavily tighten the MM, make it 2-2-2, or completely rework every single map/point/walking simulator travel time.
Slopping them into comp before making sure the modes worked for it was hopelessly misguided [those are the nice words I’m using, use your imagination for what I really mean].
But IMO, believing comp has much integrity to begin with (unless you play more matches than is healthy for the average player) under this dev team is laughable. The last one also set this foundation so the cause is perhaps nobody’s fault.
It’s everybody’s fault we keep putting up with it, though.
It does. The team that wins the first fight is pretty heavily favored in control, at least for that point.
The major difference for flashpoint that a lot of people don’t like is the points cap a lot faster, so you get fewer chances to retake.
The other difference is control resets the teams between points. So going for the clutch overtime play in control risks nothing, worst that can happen is you lose the point anyway. But in flashpoint, dying late gives the enemy an advantage setting up for the next point.
Overall you’re just more likely to feel the imbalance for getting first cap in flashpoint vs control.
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You’re completely correct, but I’ll remind you that all of your points were implemented BECAUSE players thought they wanted that. Its a point I bring up because people haven’t learned their lesson yet.
Overwatch fans have begged for something, got that thing, and then hated it. Blizzard really should have ignored the player base, and are only just now righting the course by bringing back Mei freeze, Orisa barrier, some stuns and the like.
Overwatch players when they refuse to learn ult economy
Nah, Clash is unfair.
Push is fair. If you lose fights youre at a disadvantage, as you should be.
Clash has comeback mechanics that fit party games but make no sense in a competitive mode.
it is fine to say that push punishes the first fight too much for example, but, the mode still is objectively fair. Winning first fight gives advantage in pretty much any game mode.
I also think that video is from the early versions of push when it had different timings.
Personally I was fine with payload, hybrid, control, and 2CP. Though 2CP could be pretty awful sometimes since it could snowball easily. I wasn’t the one begging for new game modes and content. I was happy with overwatch as it was. New things are welcome if they are done well. I was actually excited for each new game mode until I learned how they’re not any better than 2CP. I think I rather play 2cp than clash or flashpoint actually. But I’m willing to admit that might be biased because it’s been a long time since I’ve played a comp match on 2CP.
??? This has nothing to do with that.
I watch my team mates all spam Q so if I see we have ults or have used many ults, I refrain from using mine. Watching people waste their ult is so frustrating.
That’s because clash gives you one point for free if they push it to your spawn. Try to take the spawn point and you will probably just lose two points.
Push is about having a great first start and not being able to come back from it. Being able to come back makes for a better experience because things feel more fair. If you on the enemy team can’t continue to maintain your advantage then you’re not as adaptable as the enemy team.
A bad start in any mode can hinder you, but it’s probably the least worrisome in payload, hybrid, and control because you just need to win a lot of overtime fights without c9ing and you can potentially beat a team with double your time or just win future rounds.
It is possible. I haven’t kept track of changes to the game mode and honestly it feels exactly the same as it did at launch. The team to take the lead first always has a big advantage. I just put that video in on the end because I remember it went into detail about why it was unfair. I probably should have made sure it still held up first.
Yep, and you can also lose a match where the enemy team never captures a point at your side - makes very little sense from competitive pov to me.
ie. you won uphill fights or neutral at best the whole game, and deserved to lose.
Dunno, i dont really see push being dictated by the first win that often that I would usually think ‘oh we lost first its over’ or anything like that.
Anyways, yes, the mode has its problems but to me they are not that big, or, the problems would be relatively easy to fix. I personally like Push quite a lot, even Colosseo as a map these days.
Unlike Clash, i dont think that mode can be salvaged without a bigger rework.
Personally I’d like to have some reshaking on all the old core game modes, we’ve played with the same rules for years now and surely you could think the devs could have thought of some improvements to them, smaller or bigger.
