What does differentiating “meaning” from “logic” have to do with anything? The algo doesn’t have to understand your feelings nor does it need to have a favorite music genre to rank you against your peers.
Because you get points if they use it. If it’s valuable to your team, they will use it, right?
It could easily weight your kill against the number of deaths the support has–not that it really matters. A player that is consistently killing supports is getting more value than someone who occasionally kills a tough support.
Which is why we are talking about averages in performance, not accidents in performance. The entire system is designed to evaluate consistent player performance. It doesn’t care if you have some incidental great or bad games.
Everyone is experiencing the same context as they write their names on the exam. You don’t get extra points for that.
You are evaluated against your peers on the same hero on the same map.
By analogy, you’re arguing that your performance on the test wasn’t accurately measured. It doesn’t matter if it’s a multiple choice test or a hands-on driving assessment–you’re still being evaluated against your peers.
No, it doesn’t. Natural selection is a filtering mechanism for heritable alleles in a population in a specific environment over subsequent generations–it has nothing to do with “win rates” as every organism is playing a different game and that game is always changing.
Additionally, if the two species are directly competing in a predator/prey relationship, killing one kills the other i.e.–the fitness is lowered in both cases and no one “wins.”
If healing is all you can possibly do throughout the entire game, then you get a nice healing statistic added to your average and your other stats get lowered. Meanwhile, better players are both healing, boosting, ressing, and getting objectives.
There is no PBSR in Diamond and above so you literally can not get a different amount of SR for a win depending on the skill of your opponents. A win nets you the same amount as you lose for a loss. MMR is not the same as SR. Your MMR in Diamond will adjust based on your stats but your SR is SOLELY based on winrate.
This is 100% false and you’re completely failing to connect what they’re saying.
They aren’t saying that only PBSR can give or subtract the amount of SR gained and lost as you keep implying. They’ve said several times that PBSR is only a small nudge up or down.
The other factor that effects gains and losses is whether or not your team was favored in the match. If your team was determined to be the underdog you gain more if you win and lose less if you lose and vice verse and that exists on the ENTIRE LADDER. It’s relative to each team’s MMR ratings not their SR, although SR and MMR are relatively close at worst for the average player. So the SR of the team is not what is measured when determining if one was favored one way or the other. It is not a part of PBSR but a separate adjustment. Hence why players in diamond+ don’t only go up or down 25 every game. Literally ask any player who has played on those ranks to track it for a few games and it won’t be the same movement at all times.
PBSR is a small nudge based on your performance as an individual, what they’re talking about is a very well known and separate adjustment based on if your team was assumed to have an advantage or not from the initial ratings as a group when the match started.
At this point its not a question of how… PBSR or MMR / SR but is it a question of is it right?
Can we accept the system SUCKS since
that it cant detect, or blur the lines between ranks sometimes? Sometimes being edge cases in an imperfect system?
At this point now we’re at an impasse, some say its IS right, but if #1 is true, I think the majority of the players (as its dwindling), society would say its wrong.
Ok the system is not perfect, like admitting that this system is not perfect such a defeat?
BTW just had a 24-2 game only gained 10 SR - but I think this is where medals come in I did not have gold. HTP8TD
Again, no system is exactly “perfect.” You will occasionally get matched against opponents that will absolutely destroy you. That will happen under any match maker system. The overwhelming majority of the time, the matches are fair.
There are not an unlimited number of potential players in the pool–that’s just the way it is.
Ok - now shift that “no system is perfect” to OP thread.
Winning ratio, overall system is trapping said person with variables (justified or not). You justify it with oh it MUST be poor play. But unless you were in every game, that’s speculation based on an imperfect system. That’s bad speculation (every speculation is bad in a way - the old saying of “judging a book by its cover”).
The other side of it, is it RIGHT to lower someone’s SR if they have a winning record.
The justification cant be in the how and I know you will say yes because they play sub par, but again that speculation in situational stats. The core of it is, you dont know if its right so you rely on a system that we established is not perfect.
OR, it doesnt affect you so therefore it must be right. That too is not partial to everyone else, and still links back to imperfect system, must exist a case. If you know its not perfect there has to exist a use case that it cant cover - why cant this be a case where its not covered? - back to speculation of situational stats.
No–you are misunderstanding. That part of the system is working fine and as intended. The system is “imperfect” because you will not always be matched perfectly to equal players.
I watched 4 of their games, looked at their profile stats, and looked at their historical stats on Overbuff. Stop making excuses. The system is working as intended. We don’t reward under performers and we don’t coddle players with SR from easy wins. It’s that simple.
YES. AS IT IS IN EVERY SINGLE COMPETITIVE GAME EVER CREATED. A chess Grandmaster clapping a 1200 player does NOT deserve Elo points even with a 100% win rate. Period. Stop whining about basic logic and fairness.
You and others want something to blame for your gameplay. Take responsibility. A more skilled player will climb.
Well I had to use an example of something that would be abstract understanding because you don’t seem to understand the difficulty in explaining concepts such as value in situations where there is too much to consider. Meaning is inherent in plays because when I boop someone with brig it us not always so simple. The meaning is simply understanding the value by considering multiple points that we do easily as people but takes quite a bit of work to do in programming.
Logically a brig whipshot does 70 damage. It’s very easy to calculate that value and the value of whether that’s 70 damage killed them or whether I booped them off the ledge, and we already know the system calculates this because it has environmental kills which is no surprise as it’s a rather well-defined event.
Now the rest of the time there is potential meaning or value to why/how the boop was made. Did I simply boop Roadhog? was there a particular reason? was hog a high value target to boop? or am I just booping people at random? did I boop him to certain a location perhaps to expose him? or did I boop him to prevent him contesting the cart? did I boop him just to get him away from me to escape? Did I boop them into an ult? did I boop him off a high ground ledge that was advantageous to his hooks did I boop him immediately after he hooked one of my teammates therefore saving my teammate?
Even if you did a check to see if the boop on hog happened directly after hog’s hook, then there still are more variables, because what if my teammate still dies after I boop hog? did my teammate die because my timing was off? or because my teammate wasnt paying attention to take advantage of the escape window? or maybe my boop didn’t matter anyway because hog was already up against the wall and therefore my boop didn’t compromise his position, or maybe I didnt time my boop well.
To a human this is a trivial matter done easily to AI either a hard code every possibility which is an immense undertaking to do for every situation on every character, and even then is not a true understanding and potentially still flawed because you might have missed a situation.
Sure this can be because it’s valuable, but how valuable is it exactly? The location I’m teleporting them to, is it simply just to get out of Spawn faster? or am I teleporting them to a specific location that’s advantageous? and if so just how advantages is this position? I could equally be teleporting him into a stupid position or a position that’s very close to the leg so they fall off afterwards. It’s an ever-changing environment therefore this teleported might not even be as useful as it was before. Or you worse if you knew that teleporting was counted as value by the AI you could your teammates just teleport back and forth during the down time while you wait for the enemy to attack you and make sure you get high PBSR.
This is why the AI needs a complete human understanding of what things have value and does not the meaning of your actions in the overall picture.
What you said is likely true but still air prone because there are two supports if the one Mercy is giving you trouble because you can’t kill her and she’s healing their team and the other Moira sucks and is an easy kill, there’s a lot more value killing that Mercy once then killing that Moira will ever be, as a matter of fact I just had a game like that where I legitimately thought we lost because we couldn’t weren’t killing that one troublesome Mercy.
Well you’re right, so you do have an understanding of the effects of averages over time then.
That’s a really bad example of the application of context because there’s just a blank space where you write your name contacts doesn’t even come into play here, if so barely. But you would need to know the context of a sentence to know whether you’re supposed to “there, their, or they’re” and without context you cannot determine it accurately, but I believe I covered the contexts in the previous points.
It doesn’t literally matter I don’t see how you don’t understand this. If there are multiple legitimate ways to gain value in a match but one of those ways isn’t taken into consideration because the Matchmaker cannot understand the value of it. Then it would be terrible to come be compared to your peers who might capitalize on things that the system can recognize while you might be capitalizing on something that it does not recognize but it’s still valuable. Therefore you would win games but the system would not recognize the value of what you actually contributed.
Yes it does, that is literally why some animals have multiple more children other species because the survival rates matters just like the wind ratio would matter. They are slight differences obviously because one is playing the game of OverWatch and one is natural selection but in truth it is the same concept. Survival of the fittest. Nature did not need pbsr the correct evolutionary routes it was simply a matter of who lives and who dies or who wins and who loses, and one with the higher survival ratio or win ratio can be determined to be better then all other competing species within its environment, and the higher this ratio is over the other species which show the extent of how much better suited it is, which in the game of OverWatch would translate to the skill.
Then you misunderstood what I said, I said what happens in the situation where the most valuable thing you could be doing is healing. I’m well aware of their other abilities as should you be aware that all of them are situational and if one situation (ie healing) is not valued alone then your value is completely dependent on whether a situation would present itself or not, because you cannot rest somebody if there’s no one to rez someone if your occupied or not around for the opportunity. You should not boost somebody during times when healing is more important. It has little value to get an objective get objectives if everybody’s already getting the objective. Each one of these has value, but you required to understanding of why it has value over. What you’re saying is healing alone will not get you on fire and therefore can never be calculated as valueable. So I proposed a hypothetical situation of what if healing was the most valuable thing to do? Are you just not valuable for doing the most valuable thing you could do at the moment?
On this I could be mistaken, my understanding was without PBSR in Diamond and above your SR went up 20SR for a win and down 20SR for a loss; the exact number I’m not sure of but it was the same for both a win or a loss.
It doesn’t have to understand every single way to achieve value–that’s the point. Every hero has a baseline kit that all players will necessarily use. “Value” that isn’t being directly recorded is being translated into wins.
No, the # of offspring does not translate directly into fitness. Period. Natural selection doesn’t produce a dichotomy; there are numerous potential outcomes between any two populations. You can’t distill NS down to “wins” and “losses.” NS is just as likely to “create” an entirely different game without competition for the organism to play–is that “winning?”
“Survival of the fittest” is a phrase you should avoid using. It’s next to meaningless when describing evolutionary mechanisms.
And my message was, “You are misreading the game and under utilizing Mercy’s kit.”
I have never played a game on Mercy where all that could be done is healing. If you cannot figure out how to do more, then you will underperform because other players are figuring it out. I’m not terribly interested in predicating my views on “what if-isms” at this point.
I respectfully disagree. To a point, if they had a winning record and was down 100, I don’t think I would respond. And I think the player base agrees as well.
And again your being very exaggerating the issue. The difference is not a grand master chess player or even a platinum in silver, a border line gold (who has to endure new player gold…). And this is based on what we know of the system, and there’s so much we don’t.
I said all I can type to this one. Let’s hold up these strong stance and let the game die…
Let me end with the myst himself, don’t quote me, quote him. Wins and losses are the most important factor… well myst needs to correct themselves.
That response is in culmination of several developer posts. For a more detailed explanation including developer citations. Another member of our community has a very detailed guide.
OP’s “issue” is an intended design feature of all Elo systems–win rate alone isn’t an accurate measure of skill. SBMM + EOMM hybrid systems are designed to match skill level and lower the churn rate of players.
Blizzard is almost certainly using a hybrid system.