Bruh, Scott Mercer’s algo is garbage. I hope they kept him away from 5v5 OW2.
But does it matter, it makes no difference how they pick the team. Its irrelevant to the point
You’re already wrong according to official information. Idk why you act like you aren’t.
Not in the shot term, in the long term it will, which is why after you do placements people will often tell you to play 100 games to makec sure you belong there .
For example if i played 1 game against the Lakers even if I won you cannot know if i am as good as the lakers, if i won 5 & lost 5 it starts looking like i possibly can hold my own however if i play 100 games of basketball against the LA Lakers and had a win ratio of 50% then its pretty much certain this is no longer a fluke and its a safe bet my skill would be on par with the lakers. Win ratio only gets more accurate. PBSR can potentially miscalculate forever, this is supported by official sources.
If you remember season 1 started off with 2035 SR ended the season with 51% win ratio at 1.7k, that is not stagnating. 2k SR would be stagnating. You don’t suddenly begin applying the ratio after i rank down.
Not even related to the point. My PBSR is compared to players of the same rank as me, so the proper question would be
"Player A and Players B are Both 2k SR. Player A has a 49% win rate and Player B has a 57% win rate.
Which one is more skilled?"
Now there is 1 caveat to this situation because it compares 2 player’s. But i already explained to you how win ratio becomes more accurate over time. So while i can be sure of my win ratio over a series of 800+ games you could go for a cheeseball win and say one of the players only played a small amount of games however since im being compared to the entire player base and i myself have close to 1000 games the real life application woulf not have that flaw and it would be obvious that player B is the better player…
Fine by me.
Yes my results dont deviate, they are consistent and that IS the issue.
If i added up 2+2 and i consistently got 2+2=3 the deviation is that its supposed to be 2+2=4 , the PROBLEM is that its CONSISTENTLY not the answer im supposed to be getting.
In this case, a consistent above average wind ratio after close to 1,000 games would mean that but I’m slightly both average and at least average to those in my SR which would mean that my Average pbsr must be equivalent or very close skill level that my win ratio indicates. However that would mean pbsr would be average and therefore would not have impacted me negatively or positively thus I would have never moved from 2k or if anything gotten a little bit higher. But as you can see although I perform better than average my PBS are continues to be ranked worse. These statistics are contradictory to consistently have them this way is the problem, and the longer I’ve had it this way the more obvious it should be there is something wrong.
Any accuracy you assume here is an assumption, that is the problem with beginning this line of argument you’re moving into assumptions again.
You do realize that without pbsr I would have climbed higher Right? And you do realize the pbsr wasn’t for the benefit of everybody it was strictly so Smurfs can climb out faster. Because they didn’t fix the smurfing problem but they didn’t want anyone complaining about it either. More people wanted this tedious or system gone they still didn’t listen. Perhaps it is easier to climb with pbsr if you start for him or play characters which mostly can be judged by their stats. Characters who get more value and kills or in direct healing perhaps. But not characters like brig. It’s easier to climb with an OP character too that doesn’t justify it being broken.
Easy to say but as the post straight out says the majority of people did not want it and that’s why it’s not there. Even the the majority of people in my ranks didn’t want it but blizzard and implemented it anyway. This could be your opinion but when you say “we” you represent the minority. So saying this doesnt have as much impact as you think.
At the end of the day why keep going the post pretty much confirmed everything I’ve said at least all the parts that matter. A better man can at least admit they are wrong, the real shame is to continue being wrong or fight/argue for the wrong thing.
Have you written a better one that we don’t know about?
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No, but given there’s better ones out there designed by people who made fps and other hero ability games rather than someone who primarily worked on WoW before this, I’m not surprised by how it turned out.
the real point is. All ranks should be judged by the same metrics. My personal belief, no PBSR. But would be fine with all PBSR.
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It’s not reflected in their stats, but it is reflected in their ability to win against better opponents. Additionally, some of that value can be recorded indirectly e.g.–70 damage from your Whipshot, Inspire uptime, lower deaths, more healing etc.
In either case, your good/bad plays are inherently limited to the kit of the hero. You must show that any extra value you’re purporting to have is absent from players with better stats.
It doesn’t seem like this conversation is moving toward a consensus.
I invite you to look at other Elo systems and make comparisons. Keep collecting your SR data and see what happens as you approach Gold.
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I’ll accept that actually.
Well played.
But it’s very unlikely that Scott is responsible for every aspect of the program.
Hey, thanks for that! 
I see what it means, at least based on this, but if you do these things then doesn’t that mean you’re above average for your skill level? Like, you’d have to do these things to rank up (or climb, as we say) at some point if that’s the case, imho.
I wouldn’t imagine this can be done at will or by choice (hence the ladder). 
Ah, I see. At some point, yes I could see the diminishing returns of the value of such accolades - and thus doing away with them at some point. 
I still have to question, how is this plausible at higher elos? It’s not like the other team is going to allow the farming team, in such a case, to just farm stats (unless it’s a magical 12 stack and everyone is in on it) without any pushback. Wouldn’t they be as equally capable, if not more so than less skilled teams, to push back against such tactics? And to what extent does this happen in lower elos, for comparison? Just trying to picture a realistic scenario!
Hmm, I do suppose I see how this can be problematic. (At least, on paper.)
But if any of that is true, the selfish players in the end shouldn’t fare as well as those who play the game with positive intentions.
And as one climbs the ladder, such selfishness should be less and less frequent, as playing with the intention to farm stats should naturally be outweighed by gameplay priorities (such as the Tracer example you gave) especially knowing the relative skill those players will play at - and further outweighed by genuine teamwork with comms! So, consequently, by such a selfish player attempting to farm stats and not play the game seriously, such as challenging the Tracer on their backline, they end up having their backline challenged/exposed to the Tracer (& potentially losing) their backline and the player suffers for it.
I think it’s great that the devs are thinking this far ahead, but I’m not so sure how well this lines up with the reality of it! 
Have you seen any examples of this happening at high ranks?
How do you not understand this by now you keep repeating this point as if you’ve rebuttaled my explanations in the last. Frankly i don’t want go believe your incapable if understanding why that reason doesnt mean anything. But i’lll put it simpler. Blizzard themselves acknowledged that some there is the possibility for abuse and for people to end up in the wrong rank. Now how do you suppose people end up in the wrong rank? Explain it to me then because my explanations aren’t getting through you.
Despite the fact that you keep on talking as if this system was some true measure if performance when and some solid foundation. So perhaps it would be best its broken and players why no player wanted it so you can acknowledge it and stop arguing some delusion because your desperate to make a point.
You know what’s ironic is that high level players will go up to low level players wondering why they can’t climb and they’ll simply tell them it’s your fault work on your own game not knowing for a certain it is there fault, yet they’re expected to humble themselves in order to improve. Yet you after I presented you with an official source that backed up the points i was making, you act just like a bronze who doesn’t want to admit that he’s the reason they’re not climbing. Trying to find every excuse in the book for manner to be right because you cant do the same thing that you expect lower ranked players to do, is humble yourself and the accept reality so maybe you can improve, or at the very least not preach some skewed truth because there are people who will simply believe what you say because you are hiring.
And don’t even try to say this my thread is an excuse, this thread began as a complaint against the statistical congruencies with wind ratio being higher and not being able to climb a problem that in the official post that I linked is recognized by blizzard
When the other person asked how do stat farm your response made it look like it was only possible in the high ranks it’s equally possible in all ranks but the problem is you want to hold on to something so badly that you’re willing to skew the reality. Not necessarily giving false information but influencing a certain kind of belief trying to make it look like I gave the or inferior information by differentiating in small ways that isn’t even necessarily true, of course you sound true, do what you say isn’t even the right answer, or simply a rehash of what I already said with some few added extras and with emphasis of working better in high ranked games (which is untrue not substantiated by any proof that will lower rank player cannot do the same). And what was your answer when they asked you how do you “game” the system? You response is
That’s not even how you “game” the system that’s just the assumed reasons that you’ve been trying to get me to believe and but of course it sounds high rank, sounds like something a good player would say not the actual answer or what he’s looking for.
What’s worse is that it works, no you did not answer his question he still thanks you for it and acts like you did answer his question. Same information you repeated I had said before you is questioned when I say it but when you say it it’s accepted like suddenly makes logical sense even though it it contains what I said and the emphasis played up playlist on higher level has no real evidence supporting it.
It’s actually quite amusing to see how low a high rank player will stoop to because of his pride and amazingly how many people will believe him. It’s a brainwashed community.
I find it amazing that I answered your question first and you question its validity.
Another user gives you the same information plus a little bit of added details and suddenly the same information makes sense to you makes to you he doesn’t even answer your question on how to “game” the system but simply gives you advice on how to “play the game” . Only later does he give you the information which isn’t much different from the information I already gave you and comes with an emphasis on higher ranked games as if it were only possible or more possible in higher ranked games, something which I didn’t say because there’s no reason that’s necessarily true aside from his own assumption. Despite the fact that his answer was more limiting, and that you actually question his answer for this very reason, somehow my logic sense question when only did was repeat everything I said plus some very minor details that I didn’t include for a reason. Quite the phenomenon.
I’m not questioning your credibility. I’m approaching both of your responses with equal weight and thought. It’s as if the response is from the same person to me…
I think you’re reading into it too much… 
Well, yes I did thank them… but I still questioned their answer.
But I am actively questioning it?
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You haven’t rebutted the claim. You’ve appealed to player actions that everyone is doing in every single game and pleading to be uniquely rewarded for them. You’re effectively asking to be rewarded for using multiplication on a math test.
You’re asserting that your exam scores are wrong because you aren’t getting rewarded for using multiplication. That’s ridiculous. You don’t deserve extra points.
You’ve not provided rational and logically tractable rebuttals for the following arguments:
- Value that isn’t directly measured is measured by proxy through other statistics
- Value that isn’t directly measured is measured by proxy through beating more skilled opponents
- You cannot physically be contributing unmeasured value that other players are not privy to
- You’re insinuating that you deserve a higher rank because your value isn’t being measured correctly but you cannot demonstrate this to be the case
- The test is the same for everyone. That means the playing field is fair. If you think the the test is unfair, drop the class
Save me the word diarrhea responses, please.
Nah, you don’t get that scapegoat. You made the thread looking for external excuses for why you’re not climbing. The system isn’t against you, you just aren’t improving. It is truly that simple.
It’s more likely to occur at high ranks and be abused for the reasons I listed. The formula is simple. Now that you have the secret sauce, you can climb as your heart desires, right?
I expect you’ll be able to game the system and climb to high Plat by next week!
If you suck, you suck. #Brainwashed
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Yes. That’s the point of PBSR–get the player to the appropriate rank faster. Climbing requires you to play better than your current skill rating. Hopefully that’s obvious, but many players seem deeply confused about this.
Stomps occur at all elos and it’s possible to farm stats whether you’re winning or losing. Farming is more effective with team coordination and players that have more mechanical skills.
As an example, there was a Top 500 Ball player that farmed a team of Masters in their spawn without shooting. He could easily do that in even lower Elos for PBSR.
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That’s what I mean. What you explained before is exactly what any person would need to do to climb, so with or without PBSR they’re still stomping their competition and thus winning.
I do understand that PBSR helps people climb, but even then that goes away once a player plateaus at their “prescribed” elo, prescriptively where PBSR is active, the modified gains and losses being +/- 5-10 or so SR.
So, even if it was used at higher levels, provided the system works indifferently there as it does at lower elos, stat farming wouldn’t increase gains or losses by much at all if the player is at their correct skill level.
Also a Top 500 in a Master game? 3500-3999 if I’m not mistaken, yes? So, a player that belonged somewhere around 4500 give or take was essentially smurfing in a 3500 elo? I mean, I can understand the farming aspect, a bit, but that’s basically a player that’s overperforming and NEEDS to climb to their correct rank ASAP, to which PBSR isn’t helping of course.
I would say that this would be an argument for PBSR at higher elos, rather than against it!
It’s akin to having a Platinum player in a Bronze match. That’s gonna be a hard roll!
That post is out of date. The current one is here:
I, Kaawumba, am just a regular player and forum poster, though I’m less active that I used to be. WyomingMyst, who posts in green, is an MVP. He is not an employee of Blizzard, but has been recognized by Blizzard because of his volunteer contributions to the community. He doesn’t have moderator powers.
As far as the point of your original post: Yes, this is a big problem with using performance metrics to rate players. If the performance metrics do not accurately capture good/bad play, then players can end up at the wrong rank.
The only “solution” (that doesn’t include Blizzard changing the game) is to play for stats as well as winning, until you are diamond+. I suggest you work on reducing your death count, and switch heroes less.
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I am not questioning your answer so dont take it that way. I find it funny that the team based game based on switches wants you to play for solo stats and not switching to get a better rank.
Its not incorrect to say that. Its wrong that it is true.
I guess it would be somewhat disingenuous of me to assume it’s true for the reasons going around, versus standing in the affirmative of any one particular personal preference.
In other words, to affirm “right” vs “wrong”.
Its just not the first time ive heard these ideas, and based on the marketing of the game…it seems like the complete opposite of what the game is “supposed” to be. “Wrong” was a little exaggerated.
I’m not sure I follow. PBSR gains/losses can be much larger than 5-10 SR, but if it’s only 5 SR, that turns your 25 SR loss into a 20 SR loss and your 25 SR win into a 30 SR win. You can essentially game an extra 10 SR from the system per paired win/loss. You’re right that they will eventually reach an upper limit for the PBSR modifier that exceeds their potential skill. However, manipulating that system in a coordinated fashion will result in inflated SR.
I think the issue for higher elos is something akin to avoiding a meta playstyle whereby, “We are losing, stop trying to win. Let’s focus on mitigating our losses.”
Yep, they were doing an unranked to GM series. I want to say that player has OWL experience too.
But just imagine that your team is weaker than the opponents and they decide not to cap the point when it unlocks. Instead, they just farm your team for 15 minutes in spawn and then cap. Next round they farm you for 15 minutes, allow your team to cap + win the round, then farm you again for 15 minutes and eventually cap to win.
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Well, that’s the crux of my questioning.
At that point, even if they’re “gaming” the system in a coordinated fashion, it’s on the order of hundreds of games in the affirmative, assuming a win rate in excess of 50%, that this methodology becomes viable. And even then, a coordinated win based off of PBSR only nets the prescribed 5-10 extra SR. That’s essentially (at most) half a win more than they deserve, sure, but if they’re overperforming as you described, then they probably should get moved up by that amount anyway.
At that point, manipulating the system becomes unviable as the skill required to farm stats is outweighed by the skill required to remain at that skill level.
Also, to clarify what I meant - PBSR is would be used throughout all elos with the same bonuses granted regardless of skill bracket. Chiefly, the said bonuses diminish as a player reaches their skill ceiling, and as such, even the concept of “farming” becomes less viable as they have to also maintain their rank, and stat farming in any such way that diminishes team performance ultimately hurts their team, and by extension them, and would essentially result in a loss.
The only scenario stat farming seems viable is when a player is already performing several tiers above their current elo. In which PBSR is designed to help fix.
I mean, that’s pretty scummy - but that also means your team’s skill is completely outclassed, and therefore the team camping yours deserves the win - and by extension, to move up on the ladder.
If it’s the case that teams are deliberately deranking to play “farming” games such as this, then it’s just smurfing. And there’s not much you can really do about this except get those people out of your elo - primarily where PBSR would kick in, but doesn’t.
So, my suspicion is that the lack of PBSR actually hurts higher elos more than it helps. I’d love to be wrong about this though!
I can kinda agree that if you lose you deserve to lose full stop, but, at that point - especially if these players are at their correct skill level - any mitigations and hence efforts thereof will be minimal in comparison to their potential losses. It would also more aggressively punish those who simply don’t belong at those ranks due to significant underperformance, and more aggressively place those players where they should be on the ladder.
The fact that it doesn’t do this, and instead forces a flat win/loss merit/demerit at high ranks, seems to be the case that the reasoning behind it has less to do with stat farming and more to do with keeping players who don’t deserve their rank at their rank. Which is also primarily why the reason “stat farming” seems out of place to me.
A backdoor business model comes to mind where people buy and level accounts, then sell them to kids well intentioned patrons who want to play with the pros, or use cheats to simulate highly refined skill, and the system gently keeps them there without any extremely harsh penalties - and they can gently float on down to lower ranks without having to deal with players at their skill, and when they’re done they can buy a new pre-ranked account. However this is based on some few stories I’ve seen on pro streaming channels and such.
But I digress!
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- Brig boop example (if you want a clearer explanation, go actually read my other posts). Off the bridge on hanamura during a push, tank doesn’t die but is displaced enemy push is now temporarily a 5v6, high value play, statistics will only show i booped a tank for 70 damage. My entire team can capitalize on this, i likely will get less healing stat as a result. So tell me how will the game know the value of what I’ve done and how that all of that will reflect through whatever proxy if statistically all i did was a boop for 70 damage? And do not say it will reflect in the win, because were not talking about win ratio and that would actually counter what you consistently keep saying about win ratio not indicating skill
Another brig could not boop the tank on and have the team engage in the 6v6 and could instead get value by standard healing and damage and a 6v6 will arguably required her to be more engaged than a 5v6. The value gotten here is statistical, and can be directly measured.
Both these Brig players will get the win at the end of the game.
Now you explain to me how through the use of statistics both play styles (assuming they both contribute the same value to their team) will get equally awarded the correct pbsr if one brig player primarily supports directly through statistically measured damage and healing while the other brig player supports indirectly through unmeasured CC.
I already know you can’t because blizzard acknowledged STAT FARMING. And while this isn’t that farming intentionally, by playing more CC you are unintentionally farming less stats by playing this way. Why this matters blizzard said it themselves they are worried that players will play more for stats instead of the team objective. If I abandon my place though which I do think has high value, to play a more statistical brig, I am essentially stat farming.
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Sure ok i never had problem with wins being indicative of skill.
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Talk about a point that doesn’t matter. So what if other players are pretty to it and what impact does this have? But I’m pretty sure whatever it has is already explained away by point 1.
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Yes I can. Example. A player who stagnates at 1.7k is not climbing or deranking. For that player to climb, he needs to be better than the Average player at that SR range obviously. For the player to derank the player needs to be below average than other players at that rank. Players who stagnate are stagnated because they are average. Now does an above average player who is climbing overall does he perfom below average or average? No, he performs above average, and the person who deranks performs below average, so guess how a stagnated player such as ”myself" is guaranteed by logic to be performing average.
But according to pbsr I am “below average” yet have somehow managed remain stagnated after 884 games, even though players who are consistently below average should drop and only average players should stagnate. But you know why I don’t because I win more games than. It doesn’t really matter if I win some high games and some low games my PBSR still will stay below average as you’ve seen when I’ve shown you my Sr results. It’s only because I win more games but I stagnate, and a player who is below average consistently, would mean that he’s losing more games than he’s winning regardless of whether he’s facing high or lower rank player because this is calculated average.
So there is your long list of impossibilities. On why my pbsr isn’t measured correctly. Now as to why I deserve higher rank. If pbsr was measured correctly I’d be an average player, then again if pbsr was much of correctly I would not have stagnated at 1.7k. cuz obviously have one more games than I lost which is indicative of climbing so at the very worst I would stagnate at a higher SR. And then if I still have more wins and losses then I would be deserving of a climb as well on top of that. But at the very least I know I’m not supposed to study and at the same rank all seven season. It’s this fairy tale pbsr is the reason why I have. But you could have figured this out long time ago, simple logic does one actually improve 0% through seven seasons or progressively get worse even into the negative percent. No, but your pride won’t let you see/admit such glaring realities.
- Refer to point 1, I already told you why backed up I would blizzard said. The fact that you say if you don’t like it just switch is weak. But even still it’s besides the points it doesn’t prove anything it just means you’re happy to settle for less and that you never really cared much for the points all you really cared about is your ego and spreading your git gud philosophy.
I wasn’t looking for an external excuse I was there to point out a faulty Matchmaker which it is faulty even blizzard it’s the this process isn’t perfect and can lead to stat farming. And you know why I never knew this is because of players like you who just say get good and assume that it’s necessarily my lack of skill that needs improvement when it’s clearly not what’s holding me back. Your get good advice was wrong I don’t need to get good I need to get stats.
Your reasons are not only applicable to high ranks why would it be more likely what reason makes it more likely those reasons do not those are assumptions all of those things are lower ranked team can do.
Forum Moderator Note: Inappropriate comments removed.